God's Favor?
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No, since you are looking to convince someone you are right rather than looking for God's truth.
If the written words were not from God, what would they specify that would make a difference to a person striving to hear and obey God today?
"And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." John 10:4-5
If you disagree that Scripture tells the reader that [the rapist is ordered to marry his victim], please come with your counter argument.
Otherwise, you have no existing case; other than "nuh-uh"!
You are reading the OT and asking questions of me as if that black and white ordinance applied to me or to people following Christ today. We are to hear His voice now for us. You need to be interested in the Truth that God has for you now. When and if you are interested and are asking for help in that perhaps someone here or even me might be able to help... The kind of argument or debate you want will not be found with me.
Yea, it will go nowhere, if you do not actually engage. I'll take your lack in response as a complete concession.
But just to recap...
--- You would not state "No man can understand the mind of God..." if someone provides a Verse you agree with or like.
-- Simply avoiding what the Verse actually says does not mean it is not there.
-- Seems odd you think God deems woman and men equal, when the female rape victim has absolutely no say in this specific matter.
-- Last, but not least... I doubt you tell others to consult a Rabi when you like the Verse quoted :)
Thnx anyways...
Your responses continue to vex me? You state you do not want to engage, while engaging...?
I'm not concerned about if you follow dispensationalism, or, if you ascribe more-so to covenant based theology.
When this law was written, women were only valuable for marriage if the female was noted to be a virgin, right? Since you do not want to engage, but still reply, I'll take the liberty in answering for you.... The answer is yes.
Hence, God's solution was to make a special rule. If the female is defiled, the one whom defiled her must marry her. Otherwise, she will remain single forever, right? Assuming you agree up to here... Let's continue...
If a male likes a female, and she does not like him, he can just rape his way into her life forever, according to Deut. 22:28-29. Right?
If you disagree, you will need to tell me where my interpretation of the Text, for which we can all read, is flawed?
Let's look at the scripture in context...
Deu 22 (NKJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹⁷ Now he has charged her with shameful conduct, saying, "I found your daughter was not a virgin," and yet these are the evidences of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
¹⁸ Then the elders of that city shall take that man and punish him;
¹⁹ and they shall fine him one hundred shekels of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name on a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
²⁰ But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman,
²¹ then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house. So you shall put away the evil from among you.
²² "If a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die--the man that lay with the woman, and the woman; so you shall put away the evil from Israel.
²³ "If a young woman who is a virgin is betrothed to a husband, and a man finds her in the city and lies with her,
²⁴ then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he humbled his neighbor's wife; so you shall put away the evil from among you.
²⁵ "But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die.
Only the man shall die for raping her
²⁶ But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter.
The woman is faultless
²⁷ For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman cried out, but there was no one to save her.
²⁸ "If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out,
²⁹ then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.
The man has brought upon himself the responsibility of marriage to the woman
Taken
Well-Known Member
Am I vexing you but not engaging as you would like me to engage? I am talking to you surely, but you want a certain answer or a certain type of answer, but why? What is your purpose?
Then why mention them? I strive to follow the Lord without regard to whether my following fits under any prescribed label.
You putting words in my mouth does not make it so. Men have from day one been doing many things their own ways, ways which quite often have not not met with God's approval. However when God gave laws to Moses, He took into consideration even the those wrong ways of doing things which men had made part of their lives. Remember here what Jesus said with regard to divorce:
"Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so." Matt 19:6-8
The value of woman as merchandise only to males was part of these ways of men developed by men. God recognized their existence without approving them even as He did generally disapproved of the divorce. God has never changed and has never been a respecter of persons as it is written in both the OT and the NT.
"These things also belong to the wise. It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment." Prov 24:23
"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." Acts 10:34-35
In the beginning of the written scriptures there was only one rule written for men to follow, God or mammon, the same one Jesus mentions. However, because men complicated their own lives to the point where they could not alone unravel the mess, God took a hand in it by giving direction to any who wished to be directed by Him. Most men seldom have tried to follow His directions. Then, of course, there are always some men who by their own logic and study think they understand that God is wrong or worse that God does not care or God does not even exist. How many of such men fully understands God's overall plan? Who does fully understand God's overall plan?
One thing is for certain. To please God a man must do things God's Way, even the man does not know all of the answers. Any other way road traveled will miss the best destination allowed and provided by God.
God set up temporary rules, which He knew would not solve men's problems. He did it, at least in part, so that people [such as you or me] later looking back at the rules and the unsuccessful experiences as it is written would realize it would not work. Peter later understood and so advised those who were listening... [see Acts 15:10]
God always had a better solution in mind. That came with Jesus and the Holy Ghost. Yes, there is a better solution today, but even so men for the most part still won't follow God's direction all of the time. Like the Israelites in the wilderness with Moses. a man of God, leading, people today murmur and complain because they want it both ways. They want the blessings of God and whatever they like about mammon.
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:13-14
Do you understand what it means to tempt God? Satan tried to do that with Jesus by quoting a verse of scripture at the Lord. Jesus quoted another scripture rebuking Satan...
"Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." Matt 4:7
You are trying to put God in a box by what is written in scriptures. It will not work. A man might try to follow your logic in his ways of living, but God will know exactly what that man is doing...
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Gal 6:7-8
Great, reading the Verses in context, we see the following...
V25 deals with betrothed/married. They are already spoken for...
V28-29 speaks about single virgin females. I cannot repeat this enough, because you guys seem to want to gloss over this point.
Please pay careful attention to Verse 28 -- (highlighted in bold red). If a man finds her, and forces himself upon her, and they are discovered....
Please now pay careful attention to Verse 29. He then pays the father and she shall be his wife.
Hence, if a guy likes a gal, but she does not like him, but he still wants her for himself, he can rape her, and she shall be his. Right?
Fine, you disagree. But you have not demonstrated why you disagree. You either need to:
a: Demonstrate why the NIV, and others, is/are grossly incompetent in their translation.
b: Demonstrate that the NIV, and others, is/are being deliberately deceptive.
c: Other?
Are you claiming Verse 28 is only speaking about ready, willing, and completely consenting females?
Well, depends on what you mean by 'forced'. In essence, no one is 'forced' to do anything. But the Bible tells the rapist he is to marry the victim. Hence, if he does not, then he is breaking God's law.
My purpose, in this thread, is to broach a very specific topic. And yet, rather than address this very specific topic, you dance all around it... Tisk tisk...
If you merely want to only pick and choose which parts of the Bible you address, while ignoring others, then please start labeling yourself a "cafeteria Christian".
Regardless of if you wish to argue that this law no longer applies today, or not, God apparently presented this law for women.
Nothing in your provided response looks to disagree with the conclusion, for which I answered for the both of us... (i.e.):
During these times, women were only valuable for marriage if the female was noted to be a virgin.
It sounds like you do agree, up to here... (i.e.):
God's solution was to make a special rule. If the female is defiled, the one whom defiled her must marry her. Otherwise, she will remain single forever.
You completely avoided my question, yet again.
You see guys, this is why I feel I need to keep repeating myself. :) I'm starting to see what @Wrangler has been pointing out. I'll ask again...
If a male likes a female, and she does not like him, he can just rape his way into her life forever, according to Deut. 22:28-29. Right?
It's a (yes or no) question. If your answer is "no", please explain why it is "no". If your answer is yes, then we can move forward...
Again, this addresses nothing of my very pointed and specific request.
If you read carefully, you saw that I did answer your question, but not with a whole lot of stuff from my carnal mind. You have said that you have answered for me in part already anyway... so why do you need me or anyone else anyway?
I have heard that term "Cafeteria Christian" previously and, no, it does not apply to me. I read the whole of the Bible continuously and have done so for years along with talking [praying] to God as well to await His answers. You would like me perhaps to do like too many do and jump ahead of God giving you my own answers without God's input. I am not going to change my answers to suit your guidelines and it is unreasonable for you to insist that I do.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isaiah 55:8-11
I guess we are finished here now as you are walking alone on your pathway for a purpose still not expressed by your words. You don't need to express your purpose and neither do I need to continue with this conversation in this manner. I will check back in to see if you have reconsidered your ways, but barring that, I will probably leave this thread alone.
Taken
Well-Known Member
I personally do not choose to use the NIV.
I have personally found translations of particular verses to change the intended knowledge.
Already demonstrated.
Nothing indicates the woman was raped; unwilling, to participate in a sexual act.
Deut 22:
[23] If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
[24] Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
[25] But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
[26] But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
[27] For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
[28] If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Forced and lay hold...not the same thing.
Forced, is rape, being against her will.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I'm finding too many non-responsive replies on this forum; a generic response, like 'God is good and we should all strive to get along' or 'I trust God even if I do not understand all the things he says or does' that doesn't remotely address the topic under discussion.
It makes me wonder why people bother making such posts. I wonder if their idolatry, such as equality, supersedes all else. This is why I started the thread on equality is evil.
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