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BreadOfLife

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Trying to talk for me again...
Again a fail.
Twice you have been asked about the Origin and first use of the word you have repeatedly use to make a point.
Since Twice you have not been able to give a response to the question, there is no argument.
Why not go ask your trusted scholars the Origin and first use of that word?
Then I suggest you actually R*E*A*D post #893 - where I answered your question.
What are you - blind or just illiterate?

Sooooo - are YOU now going to offer a refutation of the mountain of scholarly evidence regarding the word "Kecharitomene" that I presented - or are you simply going to concede defeat?
 

BreadOfLife

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My ignore list is up to 29. I appealed to Protestant scholars on the meaning of kacharetomene but it falls on deaf ears. Perhaps it's because anti-Mary Christians have their private opinion as the supreme authority, nevermind what Protestant scholars think, who have studied the Bible all their lives and write manuals. Pride and blindness keeps them from accepting the meaning of kacharetomene, yet they appeal to "original Greek" whenever it suits them.
I couldn't have expressed that better myself.
 
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Illuminator

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"Completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace - a past even with a permanent reult" = without sin.

That's "Kecharitomene" in a nutshell - and NOBODY said she "earned" it . . .
Mary became sinless after she went to the Temple and the rabbi helped her to recite the sinners prayer. Don't you know your Bible?

mary.jpg
 
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Behold

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Better yet - why don't YOU show me the official Catholic teaching on praying TO statues and paintings.
. .

Ive a better idea. What if i show you the Pope kissing plastic statues of Mary.
How many pictures do you want me to post?
You name the number, but i dont think we need to see more then 10, as we don't want actual born again members here to feel nauseous.
Agree?

So, Would you care to find where the Bible, a real one, not the Douay Rheims, teaches that we are to pray to saints or to Mary?
Pick one, as there are about 300.

Also, here is a very good explanation of : Mary as Mediatrix, as found on a quite informative "cult of the virgin" website.

I can say that what you are about to read is birthed from the pit of hell, and is a genuine doctrine of devils. 1 Timothy 4:1
This "cult of the virgin" teaching/doctrine that gives to Mary the authority of Christ. Well, its just sickening to read it, if you are really born again.
If you're not, then its just words on a page like these....>"you MUST be born again".

Here :

""""" in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace.
This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect.
For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us".

And then it gets worse...

""""""Mary was associated with her Son in acquiring grace for us, she will also share with him in distributing that grace to us. This fits well with the words of the Popes, who call her the administra of grace, meaning that she administers or dispenses it. So Pope Leo XIII, Iucunda semper, said:

"... when He [the Father] has been invoked with excellent prayers, our humble voice turns to Mary; as follows by St. Bernardine of Siena : 'Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.""""
 
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BreadOfLife

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Ive a better idea. What if i show you the Pope kissing plastic statues of Mary.
How man pictures do you want me to post?
You name the number, but i dont think we need to see more then 10, as we don't want actual born again members here to feel nauseous.
Agree?

So, Would you care to find where the Bible, a real one, not the Douay Rheims, teaches that we are to pray to saints or to Mary?
Pick one, as there are about 300.

Also, here is a very good explanation of : Mary as Mediatrix, as found on a quite informative "cult of the virgin" website.

I can say that what you are about to read is birthed from the pit of hell, and is a genuine doctrine of devils.
This "cult of the virgin" teaching/doctrine that gives to Mary the authority of Christ. Well, its just sickening to read it, if you are really born again.
If you're not, then its just words on a page like these....>"you MUST be born again".

Here :

""""" in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace.
This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect.
For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us".

And then it gets worse...

""""""Mary was associated with her Son in acquiring grace for us, she will also share with him in distributing that grace to us. This fits well with the words of the Popes, who call her the administra of grace, meaning that she administers or dispenses it. So Pope Leo XIII, Iucunda semper, said:

"... when He [the Father] has been invoked with excellent prayers, our humble voice turns to Mary; as follows by St. Bernardine of Siena : 'Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.""""
Soooooo, if a mother kisses a picture of her baby or a soldier kisses a picture of his sweetheart - they're IDOL WORSHIPPERS?
Can you can anything more stupid than that?

Now that we're past that idiocy - can you show me the official Catholic teaching on praying TO statues and paintings - OR do you just want to concede defeat now?
 

justbyfaith

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That's a false statement.

Nope.

And anybody on this forum can search for our converdsations and see that I am right about you having lied on numerous occasions.

I am right about you having lied on numerous occasions; and anybody on this forum can search and find this to be true.

As for me having lied, you need to know that I have never told a deliberate untruth that I knew was a lie when I told it.

If you want to extend the definition of lying to that of repeating misinformation, then it is possible that I may have lied.

While it is possible that the information that you hold to be true in opposition to what I have said may have also been misinformation given to you by the Catholic Church; and that because you believe the lies of the Catholic Church, you hold my statements to be false because they contradict what the Catholic Church has told you.

Because EVERY marriage <fify> has disagreements - but it doesn't meant that they are lies, Einstein . . .

Just like my disagreements with you do not translate into lies...Einstein.
 

justbyfaith

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Once again, you 're pretty much conceding the fact that you LOST the argument because you cannot refute the mountain of scholarly evidence I presented regarding this word and it's implications in Scripture.

Even if all of your documentation were perfect and you had every bit of scholarly evidence to prove that Catholicism is the only way, you would not convince very many people to become Catholics because your fruit stinks.

And that simple fact tells us that your Catholicism hasn't done anything for you in the way of sanctification.

Who would want such a religion?
 

amigo de christo

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fundamentalists don’t require the rational ability of thinking men, fundamentalism the faith without reason
Ye cannot enter into the KINGDOM lest like a small child . It never said world wise pope heeding twisted doctrine .
The popes and many are highly intellectual philosophical world , WORLD , wise . But lambs are as small children .
We trust what the bible says , we heed the SPIRIT and we test all men . lambs dont fall for twisted highly intellectual
wise sounding deception . They just trust as does a small child JESUS . And that means the BIBLICAL one
They love those bibles . If you all want to sit under men who for centuries , in order to create slaves of men
to serve mans cause , then that will be on you . But as for me and the lambs , WE hear one voice . AND a hint , IT AINT THE POPES .
And it aint the prosperity preachers , and it aint the emgergents , and it aint the liberal . ITS JESUS VOICE . And that Alone is who I NEED
and one book alone shall i read . THE BIBLE . And have fellowship with others who serve Christ and not mens twisted dogma .
You are loved my friend . Its why i did try and convince you .
 
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Taken

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"Completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace - a past even with a permanent reult" = without sin.

Scripture Expressly says Several times Jesus had no sin.

Scripture Expressly say all humans have sin.

Oops your Understanding of Scripture is in Error.

I'll stick with Scriptural Truth.
 

BreadOfLife

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Even if all of your documentation were perfect and you had every bit of scholarly evidence to prove that Catholicism is the only way, you would not convince very many people to become Catholics because your fruit stinks.
And that simple fact tells us that your Catholicism hasn't done anything for you in the way of sanctification.
Who would want such a religion?
So - spreqading lies about the Catholic Church and what it teaches is "GOOD fruit"??

The ONLY reason you think my fruit "stinks" is because I've had to take YOU out to the Scriptural woodshed on many occasions.
I'd be angry, too if some guy publicly exposed me every time I lied about his beliefs . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Yup.
I am right about you having lied on numerous occasions; and anybody on this forum can search and find this to be true.

As for me having lied, you need to know that I have never told a deliberate untruth that I knew was a lie when I told it.

If you want to extend the definition of lying to that of repeating misinformation, then it is possible that I may have lied.

While it is possible that the information that you hold to be true in opposition to what I have said may have also been misinformation given to you by the Catholic Church; and that because you believe the lies of the Catholic Church, you hold my statements to be false because they contradict what the Catholic Church has told you.
WRONG.

You lied when you stated very plainly that I accuse "everybody" of lying.
Or did you forget??

Talk about "rotten fuit" . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Scripture Expressly says Several times Jesus had no sin.
Scripture Expressly say ALL humans have sin.
Oops your Understanding of Scripture is in Error.
I'll stick with Scriptural Truth.
Scripture expressly state that ALL of Jerusalem was "troubled" along with Herod when Jesus was born (Matt. 2:3).
Was every single man, woman child, baby, senile person and mentally challenged person "troubled" - or is this simply a generalization?

LEARN
how to properly divide God's Word . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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A reply that does not answer a question is a deflection.
Since you want to continue lying like your fellow anti-Catholics on the thread - it's time to take you to the woodshed again . . .

From post #893 - here is my answer to YOUR question:
"And to even thought you FAILED to answer MY question - to the best of my knowledge, since the Angel probaby spoke to Mary in Aramaic - I would say that John coined the Greek term, "Kecharitomene", under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."

Now - where's that refutation of the mountain of scholarly evidece I gave YOU about the word, "Kecharitomene" and its implications about Mary?
I'm STILL waiting for an educated response . . .
 
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justbyfaith

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So - spreqading lies about the Catholic Church and what it teaches is "GOOD fruit"??

The ONLY reason you think my fruit "stinks" is because I've had to take YOU out to the Scriptural woodshed on many occasions.
I'd be angry, too if some guy publicly exposed me every time I lied about his beliefs . . .

I'm not angry with you in the slightest, friend. I am trying to point out that your fruit stinks so that you might even become a better person. It takes recognizing that you are a sinner before you can avail yourself of the remedy for sin.

You think that you have publicly exposed me as lying about your beliefs; but the possibility remains that you have been misinformed by your church as to the real facts; and that therefore the things that I have said about the Catholic Church are not lies at all but accurate representations of the truth.

Because if you have been misinformed and are repeating that misinformation, then according to your definition of a lie you have lied about the Catholic Church in that you have repeated misinformation that was given to you by the Catholic Church.

And if you are lying and/or repeating misinformation, then my statements to the contrary are not lies at all but are in all reality corrections of the misinformation that you have reported.


Nope.

WRONG.

You lied when you stated very plainly that I accuse "everybody" of lying.
Or did you forget??

Talk about "rotten fuit" . . .

No, that was an exaggeration.

The rotten fruit that you bear is existent in the fact that you are judgmental and an accuser. This is not the genuine fruit of Christianity; Christianity teaches us to not be judgmental and that satan is the accuser of the brethren; and that therefore if we become accusatory, we are taking on his nature and employment.
 
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justbyfaith

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@BreadOfLife

I mean what I say as constructive criticism.

I am not trying to attack you and the only reason why I state things publicly is because that I hope that perhaps the fact that you are shamed publicly might bring you to repentance because of the shame that you experience.

But just know that I am trying to help you when I say that you are bearing rotten fruit.

Continue to be a Catholic if you so desire; but I say to you truly that you need to be born again.

Ask Jesus to come into your heart and see if He doesn't work within you an immediate change for the better.

He is knocking.

Rev 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
 
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Illuminator

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If you all want to sit under men who for centuries , in order to create slaves of men
to serve mans cause , then that will be on you . But as for me and the lambs , WE hear one voice . AND a hint , IT AINT THE POPES .
Your paranoid view of the papacy is childish, not childlike. You think authority means "dominating dictatorship". Your pope-bashing is slavery to ignorance and prejudice. Catholics are not "slaves to men". How stupid and absurd. 40,000 conflicting denominations can't possibly hear one voice. You guys have no unity because you have no centrality.

Fundamentalism is right to insist on the divine inspiration of the Bible, the inerrancy of the Word of God and other biblical truths included in its five fundamental points.

But their way of presenting these truths is rooted in an ideology which is not biblical, whatever the proponents of his approach might say.

For it demands an unshakable adherence to rigid doctrinal points of view and imposes, as the only source of teaching for Christian life and salvation, a reading of the Bible which rejects all questioning and any kind of critical research.

The basic problem with Fundamentalist interpretation of this kind is that, refusing to take into account the historical character of biblical revelation, it makes itself incapable of accepting the full truth of the Incarnation itself.

As regards relationships with God, Fundamentalism seeks to escape any closeness of the divine and the human. It refuses to admit that the inspired Word of God has been expressed in human language and that this Word has been expressed, under divine inspiration, by human authors possessed of limited capacities and resources.

For this reason, Fundamentalism tends to treat the biblical text as if it had been dictated word for word by the Spirit. It fails to recognize that the Word of God has been formulated in language and expression conditioned by various periods.

It pays no attention to the literary norms and to the human ways of thinking to be found in the biblical texts, many of which are the result of a process extending over long periods of time and bearing the mark of very diverse historical situations.

Fundamentalism also places undue stress upon the inerrancy of certain details in the biblical texts, especially in what concerns historical events or supposedly scientific truth.

Fundamentalism often historicizes material which from the start never claimed to be historical. It considers historical everything that is reported or recounted with verbs in the past tense, failing to take the necessary account of the possibility of symbolic or figurative meaning.

Fundamentalists often shows a tendency to ignore or to deny the problems presented by the biblical text in its original Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek form. It is often narrowly bound to one fixed translation, whether old or present-day.

By the same token, it fails to take account of the "re-readings" (relectures) of certain texts which are found within the Bible itself.
In what concerns the Gospels, Fundamentalism does not take into account the development of the gospel tradition, but naively confuses the final stage of this tradition (what the evangelists have written) with the initial (the words and deeds of the historical Jesus).

At the same time Fundamentalism neglects an important fact: the way in which the first Christian communities themselves understood the impact produced by Jesus of Nazareth and his message.

But it is precisely there that we find a witness to the apostolic origin of the Christian faith and its direct expression. Fundamentalism thus misrepresents the call voiced by the gospel itself.

Fundamentalism likewise tends to adopt very narrow points of view. They accept the literal reality of an ancient, out-of-date cosmology, simply because it is found expressed in the Bible; this blocks any dialogue with a broader way of seeing the relationship between culture and faith.

Its relying upon a non-critical reading of certain texts of the Bible serves to reinforce political ideas and social attitudes that are marked by prejudices-racism, for example-quite contrary to the Christian gospel.

Finally, in its attachment to the principle "Scripture alone," Fundamentalism separates the interpretation of the Bible from the Tradition, which, guided by the Spirit, has authentically developed in union with Scripture in the heart of the community of faith.

It fails to realize that the New Testament took form within the Christian Church and that it is the Holy Scripture of this Church, the existence of which preceded the composition of the texts.

Because of this, fundamentalism is often anti-Church; it considers of little importance the creeds, the doctrines and liturgical practices which have become part of Church tradition, as well as the teaching function of the Church itself.

It presents itself as a form of private interpretation which does not acknowledge that the Church is founded on the Bible and draws its life and inspiration from Scripture.

The fundamentalist approach is dangerous, for it is attractive to people who look to the Bible for ready answers to the problems of life. It can deceive these people, offering them interpretations that are pious but illusory, instead of telling them that the Bible does not necessarily contain an immediate answer to each and every problem.

Without saying as much in so many words, Fundamentalism actually invites people to a kind of intellectual suicide. They injects into life a false certitude, for it unwittingly confuses the divine substance of the biblical message with what are in fact its human limitations. Faith without reason.
 
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marksman

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peter and the apostles and their successors
I am surprised that the bible doesn't record Peter and the apostles saying "Did anyone say KFC?" Perhaps it is in the catholic bible.
only the church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors has the truth free from error Jn 8:32 and 16:13

That is why I joined the Jesus Church. You know, I will build MY church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. That cannot be the catholic church what with popes fathering children, imposing indulgences to buy your way to heaven, burning people at the stake and killing other Christians because they were not catholics.
 
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