Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

[CovenantPromise]

You didn't say anything. Where does it say the thief on the cross had a work of faith?

WOW!

 

[BreadOfLife]

That is not the subject here.
The subject is "salvation", and your bringing "faith" and "works" into it, as opposed to "belief", is the problem. You have misrepresented the truth by getting off the path.

Salvation may bring works, but works do not bring salvation.

Huh??
This is the crux of the conversation. Belief means absolutely NOTHING without faith. As I showed you before - the DEMONS have belief - but they don't have faith. Works aren't a result of faith - they are an essential component of it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Christ himself baptizes the victims of circumstance. Are you saying this is impossible for Him to do? And for Him to do according to His OWN words is not showing Mercy to whom He chooses? You putting what was said to Moses does not mean He does not do according His own words when He has to Himself.

You keep claiming that YOU believe that the Thief and all of the people who came out of their graves were water-baptized in the "rain" after the Crucifixion. You watch too many movies because this is NOT mentioned in Scripture OR Tradition at ALL.
You also claim to be "100% correct" that Baptism of Desire is false.

HOWEVER - I don't remember reading ANYWHERE in Scripture that YOU were led to ALL truth by the Holy Spirit. This is NOT a promise given to each individual - but to Christ's Church at large. That's why He told this to the leaders of His Church and not the crowds (John 16:12-15).
The same is true for Luke 10:16, where He again, told the leaders of His Church, "Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME and whoever rejects YOU rejects ME, and whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

Your "belief" here is anti-Biblical and also flies in the face of God-given Church Authority.

 

[marksman]

Repent precedes baptism. Always has, always will. Baptism comes after one believes.

Acts 2:41
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

Those who received the word were baptized.

You haven't answered my question.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hello @Ernest T. Bass,

* The commission of Matthew 29:19-20 is not the same as that of Mark 16, as the description of it's setting, and the wording of it will show.


* The water baptism of John the baptist, would have been understood by the Jew of that day, by what they knew from the Old Testament. They were identifying themselves with the word preached by John the Baptist, 'Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand.' They were showing that they believed that the Kingdom of God was indeed, 'at hand', and that there was therefore the need for their repentance.(Mark 1:4)



* With respect, Acts 2:38-39 was Jew related, and regarding Acts 15:11, you really need to read the context, for Peter, was actually pointing out that they, believing Jews, were being saved on the same principle of faith as were the Gentiles, and not by works of law; baptism was not at issue.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi,

I do not agree. There is but one gospel that contains one great commission with Matthew Mark and Luke all giving their accounts of this one commission.

Peter's point out clearly Jew and Gentile are saved in like manner Acts 15:11. From how the Jews were saved in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10 was by water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins. Not faith only, not baptism with the Holy Spirit, not saying a sinner's prayer.

Luke's account of the great commission Luke 24:47 "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

The great commission began to be carried out by Peter per Luke's words. In Acts 2 Peter was in Jerusalem and he preached repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins. Again, exactly as Luke said. This one commission was carried to both Jew and Gentile, all nations, every creature.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

'Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.'
(Romans 2:6-11)

'For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:
and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law,
these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,
their conscience also bearing witness,
and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another )
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ
according to my gospel.'
(Romans 2:12-16)


Hello again, @Ernest T. Bass,

God will be just, and will deal with everyone appropriately.

'How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
and how shall they hear without a preacher?'
(Rom 10:14)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

hi,

I do not see how this changes John 5:24 or Mark 16:16. There is a logical progression of order found in both verses:
John 5:24 hear>>>>believe>>>>>>everlasting life
Mark 16:16 Believe>>>>>baptized>>>>saved

Man can never rearrange, change this logical order.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Water Baptism is the normative means for the forgiveness of sins and salvation (John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Col. 2:11-15, 3 Pet 3:21).

HOWEVER – God can and DOES make exceptions. Remember what He told Moses:
Exod 33:19, Rom. 9:15
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

the Thief came to Christ while he was nailed to a cross – and therefore, unable to be baptized. Millions of unborn babies are aborted each year without being Baptized.
It is GOD’S will and HIS prerogative to show them mercy - not your will.

God is not a flip flopper constantly changing His mind about the NT gospel plan of salvation. If you think God will make exceptions for baptism, then will God make exceptions for repentance and save the impenitent? Will God make exceptions about belief and save the unbeliever?

Romans 9:15 Paul is showing the Jews that God can show mercy to whom He wants to, God can save the Gentile if He wants to. Salvation was not just for the Jew as some Jews thought (Acts 11:18). Because Rom 9:15 does not give any basis as to why God has mercy upon one and not another does not mean there is no basis at all....Exodus 20:6. Salvation has always been conditional upon man's obedience to God's will and that will never change, Malachi 3:6; John 17:17 God and truth (God's word) do not change. How can we "hold to God's unchanging hand" if God keeps changing His mind?

The thief on the cross has always been an invalid argument against the necessity of water baptism. One obvious failing of this argument is it is based upon the assumption the thief had never been baptized. There is no verse that affirmatively states the thief was never baptized. For all we know he could have been of those in Mark 1:4-5 that was baptized but later fell into a life of crime.

 

[BreadOfLife]

God is not a flip flopper constantly changing His mind about the NT gospel plan of salvation. If you think God will make exceptions for baptism, then will God make exceptions for repentance and save the impenitent? Will God make exceptions about belief and save the unbeliever?

Romans 9:15 Paul is showing the Jews that God can show mercy to whom He wants to, God can save the Gentile if He wants to. Salvation was not just for the Jew as some Jews thought (Acts 11:18). Because Rom 9:15 does not give any basis as to why God has mercy upon one and not another does not mean there is no basis at all....Exodus 20:6. Salvation has always been conditional upon man's obedience to God's will and that will never change, Malachi 3:6; John 17:17 God and truth (God's word) do not change. How can we "hold to God's unchanging hand" if God keeps changing His mind?

The thief on the cross has always been an invalid argument against the necessity of water baptism. One obvious failing of this argument is it is based upon the assumption the thief had never been baptized. There is no verse that affirmatively states the thief was never baptized. For all we know he could have been of those in Mark 1:4-5 that was baptized but later fell into a life of crime.

Sorry - but this is a weak argument.
He could have been Baptized?? Seriously??

The doctrine of Baptism of Desire is based on the Church's God-given Authority to make that call.
Your "zero tolerance" God condemns millions of aborted babies to Hell.

Besides, going by your "what if" logic - what if Jesus taught this to the Apostles and they didn't write it down??
After all - John 21:25 says that of they HAD written down everything He did and taught - "the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

 

[BreadOfLife]

God is not a flip flopper constantly changing His mind about the NT gospel plan of salvation. If you think God will make exceptions for baptism, then will God make exceptions for repentance and save the impenitent? Will God make exceptions about belief and save the unbeliever?

God can do ANYTHING He wants - and it is none of YOUR business.
This is basically what Christ told Peter when he asked about John:

John 21:21-23
When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?” Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Sorry - but this is a weak argument.
He could have been Baptized?? Seriously??

The doctrine of Baptism of Desire is based on the Church's God-given Authority to make that call.
Your "zero tolerance" God condemns millions of aborted babies to Hell.

Besides, going by your "what if" logic - what if Jesus taught this to the Apostles and they didn't write it down??
After all - John 21:25 says that of they HAD written down everything He did and taught - "the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

The claim is made the thief was never baptized. What verse definitively states the thief was never baptized? Until that verse is produced the whole argument is based on assumption.

Babies that die are not lost for they have no sin. All are born innocent and without sin, original sin is a man made idea.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

God can do ANYTHING He wants - and it is none of YOUR business.
This is basically what Christ told Peter when he asked about John:

John 21:21-23
When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?” Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

God cannot lie nor does God change. When God requires baptism in His word that is truth (John 17:17) but then does not require baptism that would be a change, a lie.

 

[Invisibilis]

What is baptism?
What is water?
What's the connection?

 

[charity]

Didn't you read my post? Its in there. Why was Jesus baptized? For the remission of sin? For salvation? There is an answer for that too. Care to venture a guess?

Hello @Nondenom40,

'The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,
"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
This is He of whom I said,
After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for He was before me.
And I knew Him not:
but that He should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water."
And John bare record, saying,
"I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove,
and it abode upon Him.
And I knew him not:
but He that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me,
"Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him,
the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."
(John 1:29)

Praise God! - What a wonderful witness testimony there, from John the Baptist, isn't it?

:)

 

[charity]

That's obvious! Is it your contention that it only applies to the Jews?

'And He said unto them,
"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe;
In my name shall they cast out devils;
they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents;
and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;
they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, He was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
(Mark 16:15-20)

Hello @Getitright,

I am glad that you agree that context is a vital component in the interpretation of Scripture. :)

* This commission given to the Apostles, was fulfilled during the Acts period, and was directed to the people of Israel, for that was the remit of the Apostles ministry. God did indeed confirm their ministry with miracles and signs during that time, as described. Baptism was an essential element in the act of repentance, and it was important that Israel, as a nation, should repent, that the times of refreshing may come from the Lord and for the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the beginning of the millennial reign. See Peter's words to Israel in Acts 3:-

'Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers,
" A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me;
Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever He shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.'
(Acts 3:19-23)

Thank you,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

The Catholic Church absolutely teaches that believing in Christ is what saves us- IF you understand the BIBLICAL definition of “belief”. Let’s examine what the Bible says about “Belief”.

James tells us that belief – as a mere intellectual assent - is worthless because even the DEMONS believe. (James 2:19) If you do that – you’re no better off than the demons. The Bible tells us over and over again that TRUE belief – what we call “Faith” is much more than this. It is complete surrender and obedience – NOT just an intellectual assent.

TRUE faith = Belief + Surrender/Obedience.
This is how the Bible measure the “Belief” of a Christian:

- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

John 6:40 says:
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

This is exactly what He was talking about . . .

Hello BreadOfLife,

I am glad to hear that the Roman Catholic Church teaches that it is believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God that saves. However, I believe that the good works you have listed though they should accompany salvation, are not a requisite for salvation itself: which is simply a matter of believing God's Word concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

* You have referenced Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, and 1 Peter 3:21 regarding what you perceive to be the necessity of baptism as an act of obedience which should accompany faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. However, What did the ceremonial act of baptism signify? Certainly it proved that the one being baptised believed the message they had received, but during the Acts period it was also accompanied by the receipt of the gift of the Holy Spirit, which separated them for service. That baptism therefore fulfilled the same function as that of the 'washings' of the Old Testament, in that it identified the believer as God's servant, having been endowed for service, by the gift of the Holy Spirit.

* The 'One Baptism' of Ephesians 4, which we are to 'keep', as part of, 'the unity of the Spirit', is of the Spirit: and takes place when faith enters (Ephesians 4:4-5; Colossians 2:11-13; 1 Corinthians 10:1-4; Galatians 3:27 ); for the believer puts on Christ (Gal. 3:27).

* What does it mean to put on Christ? This is obviously a figure of speech, and figures of speech are used to enhance truth: so here, the believer has put on Christ by believing God's Word concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, and acknowledged Him as His Saviour and Lord; in doing so he becomes one with Christ. Romans 6:3-4. also illustrates this spiritual baptism, in which we are identified with Christ, for having died with Him, and been buried with Him, we are quickened and raised with Him to walk in newness of life: separated unto Him, and unto good works. No water is involved, no ceremonial action for the flesh to glory in, all is of the Spirit.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Getitright]

Acts 11:15-17 KJV
[15] And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. [16] Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. [17] Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?


Tecarta Bible

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Maybe you comment?

 

[Getitright]

'And He said unto them,
"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe;
In my name shall they cast out devils;
they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents;
and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;
they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, He was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
(Mark 16:15-20)

Hello @Getitright,

I am glad that you agree that context is a vital component in the interpretation of Scripture. :)

* This commission given to the Apostles, was fulfilled during the Acts period, and was directed to the people of Israel, for that was the remit of the Apostles ministry. God did indeed confirm their ministry with miracles and signs during that time, as described. Baptism was an essential element in the act of repentance, and it was important that Israel, as a nation, should repent, that the times of refreshing may come from the Lord and for the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the beginning of the millennial reign. See Peter's words to Israel in Acts 3:-

'Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers,
" A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me;
Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever He shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.'
(Acts 3:19-23)

Thank you,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

You didn't answer my question?

 

[Getitright]

...and the dying thief was promised paradise by the Lord Jesus without being baptised...

You didn't answer my question.

We're not told if the thief was baptized or not. He could have been baptized by John. However, that's irrelevant. Jesus had authority from the Father. He had authority to do things that Christians don't. What He did doesn't negate what He told His followers to do. He told them to go to the nations and make disciples and baptize them. He said those who believed and were baptized shall be saved. All the reasoning and pulling passages in the world won't change what He said.

 

[CovenantPromise]

You keep claiming that YOU believe that the Thief and all of the people who came out of their graves were water-baptized in the "rain" after the Crucifixion. You watch too many movies because this is NOT mentioned in Scripture OR Tradition at ALL.
You also claim to be "100% correct" that Baptism of Desire is false.

HOWEVER - I don't remember reading ANYWHERE in Scripture that YOU were led to ALL truth by the Holy Spirit. This is NOT a promise given to each individual - but to Christ's Church at large. That's why He told this to the leaders of His Church and not the crowds (John 16:12-15).
The same is true for Luke 10:16, where He again, told the leaders of His Church, "Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME and whoever rejects YOU rejects ME, and whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

Your "belief" here is anti-Biblical and also flies in the face of God-given Church Authority.

Prove me wrong. It is no sweat off my back. The bottom line is this, movie or no movie.....The language of Christ is clear, VERILY , VERILY, TRULY, TRULY, A TIMELESS TRUTH I TELL YOU. NO ONE SHALL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVE UNLESS HE BE BORN OF BOTH WATER AND SPIRIT. Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Given His own words, and how the Prophet Isaiah explains how God's word goes out like the rain and the snow and waters the earth to make it bud and bring forth FRUIT, so does His WORD come back to Him prosperous . Take it or leave it . And if movies are more in keeping with Christ's word then you, well......it is what it is, JUST SAYING.

No matter how you turn it, the scales weigh heavily in my favor in upholding what the UNCHANGING LORD SAID. I do not need your approval as to what TRUTH is , I have Christ's personally. And as I said my view and understanding, without a doubt is in close keeping with who Christ is than yours. PERIOD! And twist all you want, Christ speaks timeless truth= that time will not change, which all unfortunate circumstance take place in-IN TIME. I know nothing is impossible with God according to and within HIS OWN WORDS and HE HIMSELF baptized that THIEF HIMSELF ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PROMISES which verily, verily and TRULY , TRULY MEANS. You think like a man, you DO NOT HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST!

Isaiah 55:8-9 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

And the way of the Lord is to FULFILL ALL HIS PROMISES . PERIOD!

11so My word that proceeds from My mouth

will not return to Me empty,

but it will accomplish what I please,

and it will prosper where I send it
For you to deny that the Lord would uphold His own Standard is to call the Lord a hypocrite and a liar . That, to uphold your father before Christ's own words. Clearly we know who your father is.
You not only favor your denomination and that includes its lies, over all other denominations ,you prefer it over Christ's Truth.
James 2:9-10
A Warning against Favoritism
…9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10Whoever keeps the whole Law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

I am guilty of nothing but you MOST CERTAINLY ARE.

Psalm 119:89
Your word, O LORD, is everlasting; it is firmly fixed in the heavens.
Matthew 24:35
35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

You can deny His words all you want, that is on you not Him. You seem to have a problem believing He would uphold His own Truth and do for victims of circumstance what no one else can do for them or what they cannot do for themselves. THAT IS ,HE IN KEEPING WITH HIS OWN PROMISES, DID BAPTIZE THE SAINTS IN THEIR GRAVES AND THE THIEF AND ALL VICTIMS OF CIRCUMSTANCE HIMSELF.

THE WORD OF THE LORD ,THANKS BE TO GOD! From everlasting to everlasting you are God Lord and your Mercy endures forever!

 

[Philip James]

For those intetested,

Cyril of Jerusalem on baptism:

CHURCH FATHERS: Catechetical Lecture 3 (Cyril of Jerusalem)

"For the Bridegroom invites all without distinction, because His grace is bounteous; and the cry of loud-voiced heralds assembles them all: but the same Bridegroom afterwards separates those who have come in to the figurative marriage. O may none of those whose names have now been enrolled hear the words, Friend, how did you come in hither, not having a wedding garment "

Peace be with you!