When is a christian NOT a Christian?

[Helen]

...as the ONLY Way. We follow The "Way."

Hey Nancy.
Not letting you off the hook easy.o

So, as the subject thread title here ...What would cause you to draw a line and say -“ that person calling the them-self a Christian , is NOT a true Christian “

Look forward to your reply :)

EDIT ...I just found your post, Sorry. Whoops.

 

[Helen]

I think that would be way stepping over the boundaries, and dangerously close to rejecting a true bro or sis in Christ...Jmo.

Sorry Nancy , I am on my iPad and overlooked your post here, I never noticed it.
The thread moved so fast ...I apologize if I have missed anyone else.

I thought that I had found them all...then I saw this one.

Yes agree...
I wrote that other one to you, because I thought that you hadn’t posted what you thought ...sorry.
I’d better shut shop now and turn my light out...before I make more blips.

Many blessings ....H x

 

[CharismaticLady]

God says who is a Christian and who is not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)

@ByGrace. You were wondering who can claim to be a Christian? Only those whom Jesus has made sons (and daughters) of God. Enoch111 supplied a great verse.

I love that verse. It reminds me of what Jesus describes as sons of God. They are those whom He has freed from the power of sin, through the power of His Spirit. To receive His Spirit one must repent and truly want to be clean.

John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Romans 8:9
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Acts 2:38
“Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Psalms 51:7-12
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me hear joy and gladness,
That the bones You have broken may rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins,
And blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Interesting.

So you do not see a difference between carnal Christians , baby Christian , and mature believing believers? You feel that they were not Christians at all?

I believe they were ...I do not believe that the ground opened and dropped them into hell.
I believe they sold their birthright and high calling...and lost the lot...not their salvation...

But , if I keep talking I will find myself locked out of the group of “saved true Christians “

You ask tougher questions than I can answer, but I think what Acts started, 1 Corinthians finished:

1 Cor. 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


Your OP should make us think about the accountability versus the grace of GOD through Jesus in all our interactions with Christians and christians. But there is one more aspect we should consider:

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”​

This versus appears to apply NOT to the world which we are ARE NOT to judge; but to Christians/christians which we ARE to judge. And if these refuse to repent for their sins, they WILL be held accountable to the individual who was sinned against, -- even if it were as simple a transgression as making fun of their name because there was no "e" at the end of "Jo". ;) -- (Not a reference to YOU!)

With My Very Best Regards,
Bobby Jo

 

[APAK]

Powerful charges... Would you stand in the place of accusor of the brethren before the judgement seat?

Christ IS risen
Alleluia!

I do not accuse anyone. If the shoe fits that you may as well own up to it and wear it. No one likes a coward and one that constantly puts the brakes on their spiritual growth, deliberately. As one that loves to be on fire for the Lord one moment, and then dowses it with the coolness of the world. Which are you, cold or hot or lukewarm?

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Soverign Grace]

( EDIT:- addition....I am added this and changed the heading.
I am NOT after a list of verses about salvation...but I want to hear 'from you'.
I changed the heading when responding to @Enoch111 's post below. )
thanks....
-------

I was thinking it would be interesting what other Christians here think a Christian is...
AND who is 'allowed' to call themselves that?

(We'd like you in on this too @lforrest don't want you missing this post. :) )

There was some chatter the other day about who was 'allowed' to have "Christian" under their avatar and who should put 'Other Faith', in it's place. ( locking them out of 95% of the forum boards)
So, who defines who can call themselves a christian?

The Nicene creed was mentioned. > for those who don't know it , or have forgotten its content. Nicene Creed

I for one don't agree with a line at the end of it... re the Holy Spirit. It says:-
"He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified."

I don't agree with that... I don't care if they were wise old men with beards.
I don't find that (bolded line) anywhere in the bible at all. In fact it is says He points TO the Father and Son. ( away from Himself)

The Nicene Creed would also define as none-christian any who have a different interpretation of what is called "The Trinity" ...with all the gobbledegook that goes with it about whether it is three persons in one, or one person with three distinct expressions...blah blah blah...
So, if the Nicene Creed is the acid test....are the none trinitarians not christians along with me...( who doesn't believe the Holy Spirit wants to be 'worshipped and glorified'. )

So, who says who is a christian, and who is not. :)

What do all of you have to say?

.....Helen

A lot of people call themselves Christian when by their lifestyle you can gauge they probably not, although sometimes someone can be a Christian and

( EDIT:- addition....I am added this and changed the heading.
I am NOT after a list of verses about salvation...but I want to hear 'from you'.
I changed the heading when responding to @Enoch111 's post below. )
thanks....
-------

I was thinking it would be interesting what other Christians here think a Christian is...
AND who is 'allowed' to call themselves that?

(We'd like you in on this too @lforrest don't want you missing this post. :) )

There was some chatter the other day about who was 'allowed' to have "Christian" under their avatar and who should put 'Other Faith', in it's place. ( locking them out of 95% of the forum boards)
So, who defines who can call themselves a christian?

The Nicene creed was mentioned. > for those who don't know it , or have forgotten its content. Nicene Creed

I for one don't agree with a line at the end of it... re the Holy Spirit. It says:-
"He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified."

I don't agree with that... I don't care if they were wise old men with beards.
I don't find that (bolded line) anywhere in the bible at all. In fact it is says He points TO the Father and Son. ( away from Himself)

The Nicene Creed would also define as none-christian any who have a different interpretation of what is called "The Trinity" ...with all the gobbledegook that goes with it about whether it is three persons in one, or one person with three distinct expressions...blah blah blah...
So, if the Nicene Creed is the acid test....are the none trinitarians not christians along with me...( who doesn't believe the Holy Spirit wants to be 'worshipped and glorified'. )

So, who says who is a christian, and who is not. :)

What do all of you have to say?

.....Helen

He who believe in Christ.

 

[Philip James]

Long time no see....glad you and the family are well...they for sure keep you busy :)

Thank you for the welcome and your concern. I have missed you too.

APAX was answering honestly from his heart ....he was speaking ‘for him’....as I have asked everyone to do

Indeed, and a heart that brings forth condemnation and division speaks for itself, and itself alone...

But I will accept your chastisement sister, it's your thread after all... ;)

I will add just one more thing for those who would folllow Christ: Matt 7:2

Peace be with you!

 

[Nancy]

Sorry Nancy , I am on my iPad and overlooked your post here, I never noticed it.
The thread moved so fast ...I apologize if I have missed anyone else.

I thought that I had found them all...then I saw this one.

Yes agree...
I wrote that other one to you, because I thought that you hadn’t posted what you thought ...sorry.
I’d better shut shop now and turn my light out...before I make more blips.

Many blessings ....H x

Lol Helen, not a thing!
Looks like you made an excellent thread :)

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for the response.

So..what would cause you to draw a line in the sand and say that someone was not a true Christian? What words, teaching , or actions of somebody would make you say- "You are not a true Christian because of this and that and the other."

( I am also thinking of forums as well as real life)

I notice you were still here 4 mins ago!! How come you are not in bed...I make it 2.40am over there!!!

I wouldn't draw a line in the sand.
It's not up to me to decide if someone is a "true" Christian. Only God can know that.

It DOES make me worry for someone that tells me they're Christian but they have hate in them and do not SEEM to be a disciple of Jesus.

It seems to me that knowing God should bring about a change in a person...even be it the slightest change, but certainly a change in attitude.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yay John. Agree.
I don't like the question either.
It was asked of me, so I posted it.

"For me" it is all too deep for any of us to say "he is not, but he is " neither would I dare. It is a deep heart thing.

I am also very sure that when we all get the fullness of the Kingdom we will all be shocked to see who GOD has said IS!!!
Because that is the very bottom line and all that matters.

I don't know why someone felt that "wise men" should to sit down and decide and come up with the nicene creed....black and white , something to point to and say.." this is it, this defines you." ..and if you do not agree "Off with your head" ( as the Queen of Hearts said in Alice in Wonderland)

Blessings...H

They came up with the Nicene Creed because there were so many heresies going around that it DID have to be determined what one had to accept to be a Christian.

If you notice, the Nicene creed, of course, contains no heresies, and corrects some that were going around. I believe it was arianism at the time..not 100% sure.

Or it could have even been more than one...which the creed fixed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Powerful charges... Would you stand in the place of accusor of the brethren before the judgement seat?

Christ IS risen
Alleluia!

What did @APAK say that was wrong?
I could be so slow at times.

 

[GodsGrace]

I was hoping I wouldn't have to, but then you went and asked!

I don't even know if I can make this short enough to keep it interesting, but the Bible says in many places that God knows our endpoint from the beginning. I believe the beginning of time, but to avoid the whole predestination controversy, let's just say he knows your end before you were born.

So a guy on his 37th birthday may not believe there is a God, or refuses to acknowledge him and then he has a change of heart and by his 38th birthday is a full fledged Christian. He probably doesn't know alot about the Bible by then and still has a lot of questions and a lot to learn. We all do, but he especially.

So in our human frame of mind, he wasn't a Christian for those 37 years. In his own mind, he wasn't a Christian. But how did God see him? Answer: he was a man who was called in due season who only manifested himself as a Christian at age 38. He was always God's sheep. He was just lost, then at the appointed time, found.

We at a time or times are lost. But never to God. He knows exactly where we are.

Now, what do we do with that information, if it's true? My belief and philosophy is that you can't discount anyone as not a Christian or in our frame of reference, a potential manifested one. Just because they are on the wrong path now doesn't mean they will always be.

My personal experience is that I always had an awareness of God and Jesus, but never took it seriously until the age of 33 or 34. However, several things were slowly happening throughout my life to bring me to Christ. I may not have identified and woke up until age 33, but Jesus was paving the way long before that.

I assume it is the same for others.

You know me....Ms. Detail Oriented.

I'm sure we all understand what you're talking about...
Which brings up ANOTHER questions...
But I'll be nice and won't ask it !
(You owe me).

 

[Taken]

What do all of you have to say?

.....Helen

When is a Christian NOT a Christian?

Christian is a term in Scripture...
that men who DID NOT follow after Jesus....Called men WHO DID FOLLOW AFTER Jesus' Teachings.

Since men have willingly ADOPTED the "TITLE" of Christian, that they NOW CALL themselves Christian...

I would say, they are claiming THEY FOLLOW AFTER Jesus' TEACHINGS.

So, I would say, a Christian IS NOT A Christian,,
When that person no longer Follows after Jesus' Teachings.

Then there is a TERM, of a particular KIND of Christian...
CALLED a BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN.

This is a person WHO has gone beyond FOLLOWING Jesus' TEACHING, and MADE a VOW to the Lord, TO Follow Jesus' Teachings....AND BELIEVE IN GOD and JESUS THE Christ Messiah...

This is DIFFERENT than a mere Christian Follower...

Followers can STOP FOLLOWING, any time they choose. (Judas thee most famous known to Follow, then Stop following Jesus).

BORN AGAIN MEN, (Calling themselves Born again Christians, Converted in Christ men, Messaniac Jews, or whatever they choose to call themselves}....DO NOT possess the POWER to STOP Believing IN Jesus the Christ or God....
THEY...have become INDWELT with the Spirit of God....and the Spirit of God, CAN NOT Stand Against Himself.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Helen]

@ByGrace. You were wondering who can claim to be a Christian? Only those whom Jesus has made sons (and daughters) of God. Enoch111 supplied a great verse.
.

Thanks for your post.

I was actually asking when a person can be told by another, that they are not a Christian. This came from a conversation with someone, ( who had been told that they were not) ....

I liked lforrest/admin post....siting the difference between church outside this site, and the rules within this site. ( which are pretty much all-inclusive) ..Catholics,JW's, LDS, and the rest of us motly crew with our variations etc.
He himself stuck pretty close to the nicene creed , but as an admin of this forum he goes with the forum rules , "christian" being much broader than the Nicene Creed. I thought that was a good explanation.

It does seem that "the church" has raised the Nicene Creed to the level of the Bible itself.
As I said earlier in a post...I agree with it for the most part...I do not believe that it is a dividing line between who is a true Christian and who is not.
Only God knows that.

Bless you...H

 

[Episkopos]

Thanks for your post.

I was actually asking when a person can be told by another, that they are not a Christian. This came from a conversation with someone, ( who had been told that they were not) ....

I liked lforrest/admin post....siting the difference between church outside this site, and the rules within this site. ( which are pretty much all-inclusive) ..Catholics,JW's, LDS, and the rest of us motly crew with our variations etc.
He himself stuck pretty close to the nicene creed , but as an admin of this forum he goes with the forum rules , "christian" being much broader than the Nicene Creed. I thought that was a good explanation.

It does seem that "the church" has raised the Nicene Creed to the level of the Bible itself.
As I said earlier in a post...I agree with it for the most part...I do not believe that it is a dividing line between who is a true Christian and who is not.
Only God knows that.

Bless you...H

I think that the word Christian has really lost any meaning in our time. At least any meaning that it used to have. We have examples of being a racist Christian or lawless Christian...to the point where Christian just means a religious person with an opinion...really. Can you say "Laodicea?" (which means "the people's opinions)

 

[Helen]

You ask tougher questions than I can answer, but I think what Acts started, 1 Corinthians finished:

1 Cor. 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


Your OP should make us think about the accountability versus the grace of GOD through Jesus in all our interactions with Christians and christians. But there is one more aspect we should consider:

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”​

This versus appears to apply NOT to the world which we are ARE NOT to judge; but to Christians/christians which we ARE to judge. And if these refuse to repent for their sins, they WILL be held accountable to the individual who was sinned against, -- even if it were as simple a transgression as making fun of their name because there was no "e" at the end of "Jo". ;) -- (Not a reference to YOU!)

With My Very Best Regards,
Bobby Jo

Great post. Thanks.

I believe that since the cross most judgement is redemptive...judgement come, ( we reap what we sow) so that the soul may yet be saved. I am not one for all this 'going to hell' business ...God's judgement is to judge to bring forth life.
But, that is another topic and getting off the subject here. :)

I am a great believer in "Love Win's" it always wins ...

By the way...I was reading Oswald Chambers today and thought of you (and @Enoch111 ) and your little spats. :)
I will quote it here...take it to heart , or kick it out...lol ......but , as this thread is all about who can say who is , and who can say who is not 'a christian'...I think it fits. ( the underlining is mine)

Quote :-
I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. —Matthew 5:39

This verse reveals the humiliation of being a Christian. In the natural realm, if a person does not hit back, it is because he is a coward. But in the spiritual realm, it is the very evidence of the Son of God in the person if he does not hit back.

When you are insulted, you must not only not resent it, but you must make it an opportunity to exhibit the Son of God in your life.
And you cannot imitate the nature of Jesus— it is either in you or it is not.
A personal insult becomes an opportunity for a saint to reveal the incredible sweetness of the Lord Jesus.

The teaching of the Sermon on the Mount is not, “Do your duty,” but is, in effect, “Do what is not your duty.” It is not your duty to go the second mile, or to turn the other cheek, but Jesus said that if we are His disciples, we will always do these things.

Every time I insist on having my own rights, I hurt the Son of God, while in fact I can prevent Jesus from being hurt if I will take the blow myself.

Never look for righteousness in the other person, but never cease to be righteous yourself. We are always looking for justice, yet the essence of the teaching of the Sermon on the Mount is— Never look for justice, but never cease to give it. " End quote.

I thought it was good...I took it to myself first...I never find my flesh like to respond sweetly :)

God bless Helen

 

[Pearl]

I've only just seen this post and haven't read any replies so as not prejudice my own reply.

To me a Christian is somebody who has willingly entered into a personal relationship with Jesus.
Somebody who is not perfect but aware that they are/were sinners and needed God's grace and forgiveness.
Somebody, who by the Holy Spirit, has been/is being led away from the ways of the world towards the ways of God.

 

[bbyrd009]

Thank you for the welcome and your concern. I have missed you too.



Indeed, and a heart that brings forth condemnation and division speaks for itself, and itself alone...

But I will accept your chastisement sister, it's your thread after all... ;)

I will add just one more thing for those who would folllow Christ: Matt 7:2

Peace be with you!

aw, youre just so pious, uh, too bad the truth comes out when you have to go hide so much, innit PJ

 

[bbyrd009]

I've only just seen this post and haven't read any replies so as not prejudice my own reply.

To me a Christian is somebody who has willingly entered into a personal relationship with Jesus.
Somebody who is not perfect but aware that they are/were sinners and needed God's grace and forgiveness.
Somebody, who by the Holy Spirit, has been/is being led away from the ways of the world towards the ways of God.

Bible Search: ask God for forgiveness
whoops, huh? I mean shouldnt that be in There like one time at least, bro? You wanna give an accounting now, or later? Bc you do not have the first clue wadr, ok? I mean keep teaching it if you like bro, but you are going to be revealed as a hypocrite, ok?

who told you that you were naked?

 

[Miss Hepburn]

The site's standard is more permissive, allowing even those who do not
agree with the divinity of Christ to call themselves Christian.
I have agreed to this in order to not shut out JW's and others who come from denominations that do not agree
with the Nicene Creed as written in our statement of faith.

Oh. For this forum, then, I will call myself a Christian.
I take things pretty literally, respect rules by nature...my understanding was the definition of a Christian, by Christians themselves was
the Nicene Creed. Since I was called out on another forum (I keep the same name), for saying I was not a Christian,
As if I was a liar ...pretty confrontational.
As I recall they pasted my Profile from here where it says 'Christian' .
I clearly said, Yes in 2009 when I signed up here I WAS! A Mod came to my defense.
See, years later I saw that I disagreed with a little something in the Nicene Creed ...The very definition of 'a Christian', never revised.
So to be honest, I do not call myself that ...but HERE the Admin has allowed wiggle room.
So ok, I keep my personal beliefs about certain things in the Nicene Creed to myself.
I am basically rule respecter..even tho, I KNOW the majority is not always correct....the Council voted on certain things in 325CE...
others there
voiced their take but were overruled...who is to say they were not more spot on, truer to Jesus' meanings?

I will say I have never known in my real life, (cuz I really don't know what you guys are like, sorry), that follows what Jesus
has advised as much as I do...it's like I was a soldier in a past life or something....you tell me to stand as a sentry 24/7...
I would without question, that's just my make up.

Because I follow what Jesus said to the minute detail...my life is care free, easy, stress-free, and very happy...why?
Because I cast my cares, do not worry, have no fear, rely on my Father, I'm anxious for nothing,
and give my burdens, ask, believe and receive. :)

Now, to do that 24/7 for the first 2 weeks was revealing!!!!!!
The devil or ego mind wanted me to worry about all the things that were big worldly issues, ha...lost keys, late for appointments,
no health ins, bills, high mortgage...even 'nothing to wear to the party' stressed me!! Anything to distract me from God!

Each time I stopped dead in my tracks and said. "No. You told me NOT to worry: this is a care to be cast away, a burden....
You take care of it for me."
I'd smile cuz I KNEW the Lord would fix everything...I would find my keys within seconds...the Doc's office would call to say he is
delivering a baby-appt cancelled, bills got paid, someone gave me $100,000 to pay off my mortgage...etc...even
went to the closet a 2nd x and clearly saw what I could wear after all. Never needed any health ins.

'ALL' in the Bible means all, Nothing means nothing...funny that Paul didn't say, "Be anxious for 10% of things..."
Funny, Jesus didn't say, "Sometimes the birds of the air and the lilies of the field worry...so
sometimes you can worry about food and shelter..."

Gosh...how, I ramble on...sorry.

I was surprised someone thought if you were not born-again...you were not a Christian.
I was not born-again in my life, but I certainly was a Christian. Things did suddenly change a bit once I was
Baptized in the Holy Spirit, healed, etc....but I was a 'Christian-trying' before that.
I said the Rosary every night as a teen in the esoteric correct way, took Communion on an empty as prescribed in
those days every day there was Mass before high school...but I wasn't born-again.
I found that idea to be surprising...'not a Christian if not born-again'.

Thank you @"ByGrace" for this thread mainly for me and my situation. :)

Added: Btw, any word with Christ in it , I will capitalize.
And I am not a Catholic anymore, and not anything with a label...it's just me and God as usual. :)