You've got that right. They call that "Legalism", which is just laughable.
Please explain this.
- Thread starter H. Richard
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Just so.
We simply get to live there. We don't have to pay property tax, or utilities, none of that!
Much love!
I have posted what I believe and I will not bel
Yes, I asked questions and I also gave what I believe about them. Do I need to do that again?
ScottA
Well-Known Member
No...I was just being kind to include myself. Your theology is greatly off--far from "perfect", and your communication skills are terrible.
What do you mean "So you mean you only do what YOU want to do?" (Rhetorical) People who have Jesus in them don't need to be commanded or required to do anything--they do what Jesus would, because they are One with Jesus. So call it all the 'ism names you want, but that is the gospel, and apparently you have another gospel and don't know the truth.
There is nothing "watered down" about being "in Christ" and "Christ in you." But saying such a thing...is anti-Christ.
Jesus gave the great commission in such a way as to insure the accuracy of His gospel...not what you are pushing, but His gospel.
As for word games...you have need to take your own advice: When the Commandments of God changed to being the law written on the hearts of those who are His, you missed the turnoff. But more importantly, you should stop preaching the words of God and Christ by the letter. Return to your studies and prayers until He sends you out with the truth in spirit. Meanwhile, the commandment from God, is to be "silent."
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So, if I am saved by grace through faith, the very next moment I must earn my salvation (through sanctification by my flesh) from that time forward...by doing good works.
Sorry, this is salvation by works, refuted by Ephesians 2:9 and context.
Dead works...are works that we do in the power of the flesh....apart from faith and the Holy Spirit...in an attempt to earn continued salvation before God.
You do...
clarification, you believe that our salvation is maintained by works...which amounts to salvation by works the moment after you are "saved".
Question: Can you lose your salvation by failing to do good works after you are saved?
I believe that your answer is "yes". Therefore, your doctrine of no works, no salvation = salvation by works.
We are made righteous through Christ's one obedient act, Romans 5:19.
You are not forgiven then if you disobey. Because you are required to obey. Therefore, what is the consequence if you disobey? Have you thought this far into what you believe? If you disobey, do you go to hell? Disobedience to what extent?
Salvation by works...refuted by Ephesians 2:9 and context...also Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:4-7, and Romans 11:5-6.
Indeed it does (you didn't read the passage that I referenced, so now I will quote it):
Mat 5:17, Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20, For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
So, according to Jesus' law in the Sermon on the Mount, the law of Moses is still valid.
See Matthew 7:3-5.
Then you must obey Him perfectly from the beginning of your life into eternity.
Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Jas 2:10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Mat 5:48, Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Yep.
Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
1Co 1:18, For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Luk 14:33, So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Can I quote you as saying that we maintain our salvation by works? Is it not what you believe?
This, to me, is salvation by works, from the first moment after a person gets saved.
You didn't answer his question.
No, you didn't. And you still haven't.
You cannot be a disciple of Jesus until you have sold your computer; and go and become homeless.
Again,
Luk 14:33, So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Now here's the thing; if you are not saved entirely by grace, but are relying on your works to save you (continued or otherwise), then you do indeed lose your salvation the first time you don't do the work that is REQUIRED of you by God.
Among them is most certainly the following:
Luk 14:33, So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
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I think I have already replied to this but I wish to say this in addition. I have never said the book of James should be tossed out. It was written to the Jews. But it should not be used for doctrine in the grace gospel.
I disagree, it's not saying that at all.
Faith that has no works is not a real faith.
Whether there are works or not is not what determines whether faith is real and saving. A true faith is not defined by works, but there will be works.
We have faith because we've believed God's Word, and Jesus has come to us with His faith to bring us to life. And now being alive in Christ, we live differently.
We can say we are alive in Christ, but how to know if this is real? Because our lives are different then they were.
Much love!
There are slight differences between the two but yes, they are roughly equivalent.
Where is there any other account of the Rich Man and Lazarus? I am in the habit of citing the Book and chapter-only because it is important to read contextually.
The Rich Man's problem was that his heart was hard. Yes, he SHOULD have listened to Moses and the Prophets (we don't know that he didn't, by the way) but it apparently was of no effect in his life. Or, perhaps it confirmed the Rich Man in the hardness of his heart. When I read the account, I always get the idea that the Rich Man still didn't understand why he was there suffering, in the place of torment.
Paul was speaking to unbelievers. The Law of God will be used as the basis for the condemnation of those without the cleansing Blood of Christ. They will be told that they should have, at least tried to live a just life, even if they were not of the faith.
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Depends on what you mean by "works". What about the quadriplegic Christian who has no ability to paint the house of some poor old lady? What about that old Christian lady whose weakness, heart trouble and arthritis keeps her from working in the nursery at church? But she's constantly in prayer for everyone who crosses her path. The proper work of the church is loving, praying and glorifying Christ--all "works" are secondary to that.
Yes, I agree with this statement.
Yes--1 John gives the criteria for knowing that we have passed from death to life. He even says at the end of the letter that it was written so that WE CAN KNOW that we have eternal life.
That was always the problem with religious people that do not have faith in God (TRUST IN GOD) They want a physical proof. If you have a physical proof you do not need faith.
I know I am a child of God simple because God said I am if I trust in His work on the cross. And I certainly do. I don't need any more proof than that.
Hi LC,
By "works", I mean changes in thoughts, feelings, and behaviors brought about by the change of our minds, repentance, in trading the mind of the flesh for the mind of Christ.
As we now have a new mind - if we do - then this will show itself by changes in our lives. Where we once only did things to serve ourselves, in rebellion against God, now we will serve others as God serves their needs through us, being in submission to Him.
God allows afflictions - trials - into our lives to snip away the old parts, to let more of the new parts grow, which will show by yet more and more Godliness and love for others.
And is that not a beautiful thing? That's what makes me so sad for those who feel like that can't know whether or not God has actually accepted them into they die, whether Muslim, or someone who believes that works are required to keep one's salvation. Just like under the Old Covenant.
Much love!
That's the bottom line. If we believe what God says, that's what He says. All who call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved.
He's not far away, He's right here, close as our lips, if we just say believing . . .
It's all faith, all the way. We don't add a thing. Only, if it's real in me, there will be something of evidence in my life. Maybe microscopic. Maybe more. But we'll be changed.
Much love!
'..the goodness of God...leadeth thee to repentance...' (Romans ). :)
I didn't say we would find it in Genesis.
KJV Romans 4
Abraham is Justified By Faith
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Mal'ak
Member
Justified and doing something righteous are two different things.
If there was no need for him to prove himself by works why have him think he had to sacrifice his son? Just for a game? God was bored in Heaven and said "Abraham is already justified by his faith, but I have nothing better to do, so I will ask him to prove himself again by killing his son just to see if he would do it because it would be funny"....
The sad fact is Christians are scared that Heaven is not a free pass and they might not go there, so they make up false doctrine and use God's Word to call other parts of God's Word a liar. Is James a liar, because he said faith without works is dead? Is the Heavenly Father a hypocrite and a liar, because he commanded Abraham to prove himself with Isaac after he was supposed already proven by his faith?
You call God's prophets and chosen liars, call God himself a liar, then mock his Holy Word. Then you think "it is fine I trash talk God, because I believe in him so I am going to Heaven and there is nothing he can do about it...sucks to be God".
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Hi @Mal'ak,
Have you considered that Abraham's faith, in Genesis 15:6, justified him, in that God counted his faith as righteousness.
It may be that God wanted to make an example to the world of the kind of faith that He desires to see in a person; and the only way for God to be able to do this was for God to make an example of Abraham's faith by having him show it forth by his deeds.
It should be clear that the content of Abraham's faith, that his seed through Isaac would be as the stars in the heaven...no matter what...is shown clearly by the fact that Abraham was willing to offer up his only begotten son.
Isaac and Rebecca had not yet met; and therefore Jacob and Esau were not yet born...no possibility of children by the established seed, except (in Abraham's thinking) God raised Isaac from the dead.
Abraham believed so strongly in the promise of God (which took place in Genesis 15:6) that twenty to forty years later, when asked to offer up the promised seed, he was willing to do so without hesitation; counting that God was able to even raise Isaac from the dead.
Thus Abraham's faith was not only in the immutability of God's promise; it was also in His Omnipotent power to raise people to life.
His behaviour reflected the content of his faith.
If I believe that a chair can hold me up, I will sit in it when I am inclined to rest.
Thus we have the concept that faith without works is dead.
We are saved by faith alone; but saving faith is never alone.
Have you considered that Abraham's faith, in Genesis 15:6, justified him, in that God counted his faith as righteousness.
It may be that God wanted to make an example to the world of the kind of faith that He desires to see in a person; and the only way for God to be able to do this was for God to make an example of Abraham's faith by having him show it forth by his deeds.
It should be clear that the content of Abraham's faith, that his seed through Isaac would be as the stars in the heaven...no matter what...is shown clearly by the fact that Abraham was willing to offer up his only begotten son.
Isaac and Rebecca had not yet met; and therefore Jacob and Esau were not yet born...no possibility of children by the established seed, except (in Abraham's thinking) God raised Isaac from the dead.
Abraham believed so strongly in the promise of God (which took place in Genesis 15:6) that twenty to forty years later, when asked to offer up the promised seed, he was willing to do so without hesitation; counting that God was able to even raise Isaac from the dead.
Thus Abraham's faith was not only in the immutability of God's promise; it was also in His Omnipotent power to raise people to life.
His behaviour reflected the content of his faith.
If I believe that a chair can hold me up, I will sit in it when I am inclined to rest.
Thus we have the concept that faith without works is dead.
We are saved by faith alone; but saving faith is never alone.
Just to throw something in the mix....
The word says God counted Abraham as righteous, because Abraham believed. He had faith. Faith in what? That God would fulfill and keep His promises. This is clearly evidenced by the very fact that Abraham was willing to offer his son. Abraham would not have offered Isaac if he hadn't faith that God somehow could still keep His promises.
But what about us? God hasn't promised us sons and daughters, or at least not as many as there are stars...and He most certainly hasn't asked me at least to put a knife to their throat. So if my faith is sufficient that I am accounted righteous, what promises am I to believe in, and how am I to demonstrate that faith by action? There is a definitive connection between the promise to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations, and his obedience and willingness to kill his only son.
What promises are we to cleave to, and how do we act in connection to those promises this validating our faith in them?
The word says God counted Abraham as righteous, because Abraham believed. He had faith. Faith in what? That God would fulfill and keep His promises. This is clearly evidenced by the very fact that Abraham was willing to offer his son. Abraham would not have offered Isaac if he hadn't faith that God somehow could still keep His promises.
But what about us? God hasn't promised us sons and daughters, or at least not as many as there are stars...and He most certainly hasn't asked me at least to put a knife to their throat. So if my faith is sufficient that I am accounted righteous, what promises am I to believe in, and how am I to demonstrate that faith by action? There is a definitive connection between the promise to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations, and his obedience and willingness to kill his only son.
What promises are we to cleave to, and how do we act in connection to those promises this validating our faith in them?
Thank you for all your kind words about ME. But I do not think I am the subject of the OP.
Personally I think God's request of Abraham was a teaching event to show what God was going to do in the future.
YOu can believe what you wish I will not try to trash you.
