The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Nancy]

And to what purpose the suffering in the present time?

?? Not following here Marks. What does suffering in this life have to do with said doctrine? I'm sure I'm missing something here, do tend to that sometimes

 

[SovereignGrace]

They don't study, instead they argue what they think the gospel should be, and what their god should be, or he doesn't get the part.

It's really not worth it bro, huge waste of time.

Several have come to the knowledge of the truth elsewhere, but I don't see it happening here at all. They're too busy fighting God, fighting the gospel, and honestly, they think they were pretty swell people who came to some god out of their own special love for him while lost.

No person who feels like this about themselves shows they've had a true encounter with Christ. They see themselves as not only pretty good to come to their god, but having the ability to do so as well. All of this is a denial of the Gospel of grace.

Next time, don’t pull any punches. Just let all your feelings go. Don’t pump your brakes, let it all hang out. ;)

True post and I agree.

 

[justbyfaith]

Making a decision for Christ does not indicate any virtue on my part. Rather, it indicates that I am not insane.

Because anyone faced with the message of the gospel would have to be insane to reject Christ. There is nothing of virtue in it at all. It simply means that I see clearly the message as it is presented and am not a fool, to reject such a free offer of a gift of which the opposite is such clear condemnation.

 

[Phoneman777]

You. Ignored the scripture explained to you already, so it makes no difference as you are a truth suppressor .

Why does the "exclusivity religion" of Calvinism so closely resemble the "exclusivity religion" of Lucifer? We know when it comes to truth, Satan's tactics are to either attack it directly or undermine it by means of counterfeiting.

Is Lucifer's club, whose members:

• are specially chosen "enlightened" ones
• have zero free will
• have zero ability to enter except by selection only
• have zero ability to refuse membership under pain of death
• look down on the rest of everyone else as "unworthy, unenlightened, unintelligent, unsophisticated, and not deserving in the least light and truth, but only deception and exploitation"

...just another one of Satan's counterfeits of what you claim is the "truth" of Calvinism?

 

[justbyfaith]

and honestly, they think they were pretty swell people who came to some god out of their own special love for him while lost.

I didn't love the Lord before He apprehended me. But my decision to receive Him was not based on love for Him; it was based on the instinct of self-preservation. I don't think that it is otherwise for anyone who receives Him.

 

[Phoneman777]

I'm sorry you are not able to receive the genuineness of love.

Let's look at some basic reality. We disagree on a particular doctrine, as many do. We've discussed it through a bit, and it's not the first time around for either of us.

In this case our disagreement has primarily to do with soteriology, but naturally impinges on other doctrines.

But I'm not recalling any indications (forgive me if I'm missing something) that we disagree that salvation is a gift of God through faith (therein rests our disagreement, the exact nature of that faith), purchased by Jesus in His death, glorified in His resurrection, with and in Whom we live. And we live in Him to produce works which remain. Would you not say we agree on these?

Can we not both of us accept that the other has a different view for what they believe to be good reason, in good conscience before God?

And as such, can we not with an honest heart want the very best, what God deems best, for the other? And is that not love?

Much love to you from God, and such as is mine.

I sense true humility in your posts - humility is the absolute greatest attribute of our Lord and I so want to be like Him, but alas, I struggle immensely in this cursed body of flesh. If we can't love those who hate us, curse us, exploit us, and slander us, we're not Christians at all - we're nothing but baptized pagans.

 

[Phoneman777]

To me, personally speaking, the "importance level of this doctrine" is that is can and does strip many of hope! Not to mention that, even IF they raised their child up "in the way they should go", it would matter not as, the decision has already been made for that child. IF that child is one of the "elect", they will come to Christ and if not, they will burn in hell, as...it was foreordained that that child should burn in hell way before they were born, whether or not they ask Jesus and the Spirit of God to come into their hearts. And yes, even baby's still born...straight to Hell if they were NOT chosen as "the elect" before the foundations of the earth.
It also really minimizes evangelism...some proponents refuse to evangelize, not all...but some.

Great answers to that question by marks. In addition, look what this false idea does to the character of God! Makes Him out to be cold, callous, unfair, unjust - pretty much just like the character of Lucifer...which is why I keep asking the question of why both Calvinism and Luciferian religion appear to be such identical twins....

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Next time, don’t pull any punches. Just let all your feelings go. Don’t pump your brakes, let it all hang out. ;)

True post and I agree.

Right? How many times have they been offered Scripture, and have rejected it, and have been asked to supply it, and have not?

They have this gospel that they can believe in any kind of Jesus they want, and as long as they think they're good, nice, pleasant, it doesn't matter, they're on their way to heaven to this christ they've made up who is contrary to Scripture.

Now, don't judge, they've said they "believe" so how dare anyone judge. Just believe there is a God, and it's all good!

Except for the fact that isn't the faith that saves; James 2:19. But then again, why use Scripture? All they do is reject it.

No worries, the only thing at stake is their eternal soul that they've banked on things that aren't found in Scripture, while rejecting Scripture at the same time.

 

[Dave L]

I can well assure you that a "right to the "Tree of Life" and permission to "enter in through the gates into the city" ain't talking about no Earthy city, and it's dishonest to insist that. The Tree of Life is in the "paradise" of God and the "paradise" of God is from which the "River of Life" flows (not some underground chamber of the dead, as some teach), so yes, Revelation 22:14 is most definitely talking about the heavenly hereafter, not the here and now.

Revelation covers the entire New Covenant era and the new heavens and earth. You are trying to use something yet future to refute the truth of things present and past.

 

[brakelite]

They don't study, instead they argue what they think the gospel should be, and what their god should be, or he doesn't get the part.

It's really not worth it bro, huge waste of time.

Several have come to the knowledge of the truth elsewhere, but I don't see it happening here at all. They're too busy fighting God, fighting the gospel, and honestly, they think they were pretty swell people who came to some god out of their own special love for him while lost.

No person who feels like this about themselves shows they've had a true encounter with Christ. They see themselves as not only pretty good to come to their god, but having the ability to do so as well. All of this is a denial of the Gospel of grace.

Oh well, you'll be going then huh. Bye.

 

[justbyfaith]

Except for the fact that isn't the faith that saves; James 2:19.

Romans 4:1-8 and other passages are clear in giving us the understanding that faith does indeed save.

James 2:19, in context, teaches us that faith must be living if it is going to save; that a dead faith (that does not produce works) will be inefficient in bringing salvation to the soul.

 

[Nancy]

Great answers to that question by marks. In addition, look what this false idea does to the character of God! Makes Him out to be cold, callous, unfair, unjust - pretty much just like the character of Lucifer...which is why I keep asking the question of why both Calvinism and Luciferian religion appear to be such identical twins....

I don't know how I forgot to list THAT one! OF course, it most certainly does malign His Character...and yes, i have noticed your Luciferian references, pretty darned close if you ask me. Spot on!

 

[Dave L]

I don't know how I forgot to list THAT one! OF course, it most certainly does malign His Character...and yes, i have noticed your Luciferian references, pretty darned close if you ask me. Spot on!

Apostle Paul taught the same as Calvin in many ways. That's where Calvin got it. But if Calvin was right about God, you and PM clearly hate him.

 

[Nancy]

Apostle Paul taught the same as Calvin in many ways. That's where Calvin got it.

May I ask where Paul taught Calvinism?

 

[Dave L]

May I ask where Paul taught Calvinism?

Romans 9 is a good start. From there Ephesians 1:11 and many OT passages I will provide if interested.

 

[Nancy]

Romans 9 is a good start. From there Ephesians 1:11 and many OT passages I will provide if interested.

Oh, I know you guys really like Romans 9! And, I have gotten tneither "side" o know it pretty well, thanks to you all, lol. No, I do not see Limited Atonement in anything Paul say's. Nor do I see anything about Irresistible Grace. I name these two components because they, out of the 5 points, are the only ones that make me slam the breaks. I suppose we all should just leave this alone anymore, we are truly beating a dead horse Dave. There is so much more to learn and study about in that awesome Word of His...do you think it's time that we started a thread about something "new" that we can all argue about, lol! Seriously though, neither "side" is getting anywhere with all of this...I know I need a break from it and I sure hope to see some old faces on here, who have been gone to other forums because of the bickering and some, very nasty, name calling threads. Not saying you Dave...I don't see that attitude with you.
CAN'T WE JUST LOVE EACH OTHER!!!!!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Romans 4:1-8 and other passages are clear in giving us the understanding that faith does indeed save.

James 2:19, in context, teaches us that faith must be living if it is going to save; that a dead faith (that does not produce works) will be inefficient in bringing salvation to the soul.

We’re saved by grace, bruh. Faith is what is used in salvation, and that’s even God’s gift to the unregenerate. But it’s grace and grace alone that saves.

 

[Dave L]

Oh, I know you guys really like Romans 9! And, I have gotten tneither "side" o know it pretty well, thanks to you all, lol. No, I do not see Limited Atonement in anything Paul say's. Nor do I see anything about Irresistible Grace. I name these two components because they, out of the 5 points, are the only ones that make me slam the breaks. I suppose we all should just leave this alone anymore, we are truly beating a dead horse Dave. There is so much more to learn and study about in that awesome Word of His...do you think it's time that we started a thread about something "new" that we can all argue about, lol! Seriously though, neither "side" is getting anywhere with all of this...I know I need a break from it and I sure hope to see some old faces on here, who have been gone to other forums because of the bickering and some, very nasty, name calling threads. Not saying you Dave...I don't see that attitude with you.
CAN'T WE JUST LOVE EACH OTHER!!!!!

My problem is, if Calvin is right about God, most hate God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Oh the Luciferian comparison. Someone’s phone lines got snipped.

 

[SovereignGrace]

My problem is, if Calvin is right about God, most hate God.

The unregenerate do. Romans 8:5-9. They are hostile towards God, hate Him, are at enmity with God.