The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Jane_Doe22]

Is the gift offered to all ? Again millions have never heard .
As for the remark is salvation forced it is not . We were considered dead in our sin sons of disobedience by nature children of wrath before we came to faith.
It is by God’s mercy and love that we were made alive.

The question here is not "what happens to those people who've never heard about the Gospel?" That's a whole different discussion for Calvinists, Arminians, and everyone else.

The question is "can a person accept the Gospel? Or is their acceptance / lack a complete non factor?"

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Largely because the Calvinistic boards don't need evangelizing

I still don't understand the purpose of a Calvinist evangelizing at all. I know that you and I have talked about it extensively, so talking about it more's probably not going to help. But it is still something I don't get.

 

[Mjh29]

This statement of fact that the saints have been "granted to believe" in no way - except by Calvinism's subjective reasoning - denies that others have been granted the same opportunity, but failed to improve it.

Then why does it not say that "to all it has been granted?

This statement of fact that Christ gave Himself for the saints in no way - except by Calvinism's subjective reasoning - denies the extension of the same opportunity to all people to become recipients of the same.

Again, then why does the passage not say what you are implying? I simply let the verse speak for itself; YOU are the one who read into it "Well, it doesn't say that it's not for all, so...." I just read what the verse said; nothing more. No reading into it needed, it speaks for itself.

Because Christ cannot intercede for those who refuse to be lead "by the goodness of God...to repentance", which according to Romans 2:6 is "every man".

Oh.... so there are things that the God man incarnate cannot do? You rather limit the power of Christ than accept what the verse says? You are compromising your view of Christ to cling onto "Christ died for all". If Christ came to die for everyone, he would have prayed for everyone in his high priestly prayer.

Here is nothing but affirmation that Christ's blood is not effectual for anyone but those who have been lead by the Father to Him (which according to Romans 2:6 is "every man") and chose to repent at the foot of the Cross and there's not a single verse denies the merits of Christ are not available to "all men"

Except for the fact that none of the verses say "all" and instead say "many". But we'll overlook that one.

The answer is 1, but only by repentance does His punishment benefit the sinner.

Ok, so is unbelief a sin?

 

[Dave L]

I tolerate a lot from people, but I draw the line at willfully ignorant accusations.

I'm comparing the philosophies of Calvinists and Luciferians, not their individuals themselves, comprendo?

Oh, no, another one who thinks philosophy defines one's character.

"Say 'uncle'!" is a North American expression demanding that the opponent in a contest submit. The response "Uncle!" is equivalent to "I give up" and indicates submission. Say Uncle - Wikipedia

 

[Laish]

You don't understand the difference between criticism of one's philosophy and his character, do you? When emotion, not reason, is in the driver's seat, such inability is to be expected. I'll bet Trump isn't your President either, right?

Lol dude What dose Trump have to do with it ? Just to let you know given the choice of the two candidates my wife and I financially supported the Trump campaign. Why the comments about trump your inserting something that has nothing to do with the conversation in a attempt to what ? Degrade or define someone character by what political philosophy they have ?
Also I understand the principle of philosophy it’s in a philosophy 101 class we understand that one’s philosophy is a mirror of one’s character. So don’t peddle your backhanded insults as a instructive contrast or comparison of thought then say your not to applying it to the individual. You intentionally chose Lucifer as your contrast each time shows desire to shove a emotional wedge into your argument. Demonstrating it’s not about philosophical thought but a desire to degrade your opponent in a debate or discussion. You can continue in your emotional diatribe I know rhetoric as expressed in debate and discussion phone . In debate contrasting one’s beliefs and philosophy or political affiliations is used to define your self or your opponent. It is used to elevate oneself or degrade your opponent. Its simple.
You lied and are trying to hide behind a nonexistent intellectual principle. Your bringing up Trump out of thin air deflate your defense.

You don't understand the difference between criticism of one's philosophy and his character, do you?

Your conduct is going beyond dishonest to pathetic. You can’t stand to be called out , so you attempt to to degrade others by doing exactly what you claim not to do .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Phoneman777]

"Say 'uncle'!" is a North American expression demanding that the opponent in a contest submit. The response "Uncle!" is equivalent to "I give up" and indicates submission. Say Uncle - Wikipedia

Sure, suffering is redemptive - God allows the consequences of our mistakes to work on us.

"Some people never look up until they're flat on their back, and others never get on their knees until the load gets to heavy to carry."

But if at some point we don't see the error of our ways so that what drove us to our knees is handed over to Jesus for carrying and the old rocky dark path that landed us on our back is exchanged for the a hand in hand walk with God on a new, we're no better off despite that suffering.

 

[Phoneman777]

Lol dude What dose Trump have to do with it ? Just to let you know given the choice of the two candidates my wife and I financially supported the Trump campaign. Why the comments about trump your inserting something that has nothing to do with the conversation in a attempt to what ? Degrade or define someone character by what political philosophy they have ?
Also I understand the principle of philosophy it’s in a philosophy 101 class we understand that one’s philosophy is a mirror of one’s character. So don’t peddle your backhanded insults as a instructive contrast or comparison of thought then say your not to applying it to the individual. You intentionally chose Lucifer as your contrast each time shows desire to shove a emotional wedge into your argument. Demonstrating it’s not about philosophical thought but a desire to degrade your opponent in a debate or discussion. You can continue in your emotional diatribe I know rhetoric as expressed in debate and discussion phone . In debate contrasting one’s beliefs and philosophy or political affiliations is used to define your self or your opponent. It is used to elevate oneself or degrade your opponent. Its simple.
You lied and are trying to hide behind a nonexistent intellectual principle. Your bringing up Trump out of thin air deflate your defense.

Your conduct is going beyond dishonest to pathetic. You can’t stand to be called out , so you attempt to to degrade others by doing exactly what you claim not to do .
Blessings
Bill

Until you can acknowledge the diff between criticism of one's philosophy and criticism of his character, I'm not wasting any more time with you, Laish.

BTW, I don't care what some leftist taught you in some school, upright character is based on whether you love God and your fellow man or not because "love is the fulfiling of the law".

 

[Dave L]

Sure, suffering is redemptive - God allows the consequences of our mistakes to work on us.

"Some people never look up until they're flat on their back, and others never get on their knees until the load gets to heavy to carry."

But if at some point we don't see the error of our ways so that what drove us to our knees is handed over to Jesus for carrying and the old rocky dark path that landed us on our back is exchanged for the a hand in hand walk with God on a new, we're no better off despite that suffering.

What you are missing is how dead people are. They cannot discern the true God. And if someone describes him they hate him. They love sin more than anything else and think any talk of salvation is stupid. It is from this condition God repairs our hearts so we believe and love him, turning from sin to a life of holiness.

 

[Nancy]

You better stop celebrating your anniversary to your wife, seeing that her love shown you all these years has been nothing but a "butcher job", right? Maybe you should buy her a set of Ginsu knives instead of chocolates :)

You go Phoneguy!!!

 

[Dave L]

You go Phoneguy!!!

She's not a bully like you and PG make God out to be.

 

[Nancy]

Which actions are more in line with the concept of "bullying":

1. God allowing every man the choice to either serve Him or Satan.
2. God programming some to serve Him for all eternity while equipping the rest of us with an outdated OS for which there are no updates, bug fixes, or tech support....and then eventually smashing us into bits because we can't run properly or keep freezing up.

Simple...TOO simple for some. Anybody can have the Free gift He offers. It would be an insult to the Creator if we brushed His hand away. Free will actually brings God MORE Glory! He is able to make good out of bad for those who love Him (Christians) and are called according to His purpose (His purpose is that we Love, believe on and trust Jesus Christ) Paraphrase of Romans 8:28. It brings Him more Glory in the fact that His atonement was so powerful that His blood covered ALL people of ALL time...how can one limit His Atonement?? God sees all things that have not even happened yet from beginning of time to the end. Is He not powerful and Good enough to offer salvation to ALL people?
Love your bullying ref.#2

 

[Dave L]

Simple...TOO simple for some. Anybody can have the Free gift He offers. It would be an insult to the Creator if we brushed His hand away. Free will actually brings God MORE Glory! He is able to make good out of bad for those who love Him (Christians) and are called according to His purpose (His purpose is that we Love, believe on and trust Jesus Christ) Paraphrase of Romans 8:28. It brings Him more Glory in the fact that His atonement was so powerful that His blood covered ALL people of ALL time...how can one limit His Atonement?? God sees all things that have not even happened yet from beginning of time to the end. Is He not powerful and Good enough to offer salvation to ALL people?
Love your bullying ref.#2

Dead people cannot receive gifts. He must restore them to life first.

 

[Phoneman777]

Then why does it not say that "to all it has been granted?

Funny, when my boss told me "to you we granted two weeks vacation" none of my coworkers complained about suddenly losing their 2 weeks. Like I said, you reasoning is totally subjective.

Again, then why does the passage not say what you are implying? I simply let the verse speak for itself; YOU are the one who read into it "Well, it doesn't say that it's not for all, so...." I just read what the verse said; nothing more. No reading into it needed, it speaks for itself.

No, it is YOU who are demanding that "because these aren't mentioned, they don't get none" when so many other places use "every man", "whosoever", "all men", etc. See what I did there? I turned you silly projected subjectivity back on you.

Oh.... so there are things that the God man incarnate cannot do? You rather limit the power of Christ than accept what the verse says? You are compromising your view of Christ to cling onto "Christ died for all". If Christ came to die for everyone, he would have prayed for everyone in his high priestly prayer.

He cannot force open the door upon which He knocks. That's one. And if you knew anything about the Sanctuary, you'd know that the High Priest only intercedes for those who come to the altar of Sacrifice and confess their sins..otherwise, no one would have been cut off from the congregation.

Except for the fact that none of the verses say "all" and instead say "many". But we'll overlook that one.

I've overlooked nothing. The fact that lots of people are going to the Lake of Fire is all that is necessary to show why "many" and not "all" is used to describe those who will be saved.

Ok, so is unbelief a sin?

"Without faith it is impossible to please God". Y'know, "faith", a measure of which God has dealt to "all men"?
:)
While I disagree, I want to thank you for taking the time to read my posts.

 

[Phoneman777]

What you are missing is how dead people are. They cannot discern the true God. And if someone describes him they hate him. They love sin more than anything else and think any talk of salvation is stupid. It is from this condition God repairs out hearts so we believe and love him, turning from sin to a life of holiness.

Dave, is it true that a sinner being led by God to the Cross where repentance may be found is still a sinner while he is yet being led?

You know it's true. And if Calvinism cannot make room for this truth, for the love of God, abandon it and follow truth!

 

[Dave L]

Dave, is it true that a sinner being led by God to the Cross where repentance may be found is still a sinner while he is yet being led?

You know it's true. And if Calvinism cannot make room for this truth, for the love of God, abandon it and follow truth!

Dead guys cannot move.

 

[Phoneman777]

You go Phoneguy!!!

:cool:

 

[marks]

I know what I am reading and seeing. She can correct me if she wants to. She can call and make her case, but I know what is coming from the keyboard. She is not alone in this...many do this.

Nice to know you can see her motives and inclinations through the internet. Paul wasn't even certain of his own, and they were inside him.

But no matter.

This morning's prayer breakfest, the pastor brought up an interesting point. When David was fleeing Saul, Saul had heard that David was in a certain town. David inquired of God what was going to happen, Will Saul come here? Will the people here hand me over? Yes. God foreknew.

David left the town, Saul stopped heading that way, and nothing happened.

Foreknowledge does not equal predestination. These are two different things, just as the words indicate, being, in the Greek, two different words.

Much love!
Mark

 

[Dave L]

Nice to know you can see her motives and inclinations throuth the internet. Paul wasn't even certain of his own, and they were inside him.

But no matter.

This morning's prayer breakfest, the pastor brought up an interesting point. When David was fleeing Saul, Saul had heard that David was in a certain town. David inquired of God what was going to happen, Will Saul come here? Will the people here hand me over? Yes. God foreknew.

David left the town, Saul stopped heading that way, and nothing happened.

Foreknowledge does not equal predestination. These are two different things, just as the words indicate, being, in the Greek, two different words.

Much love!
Mark

God used the ultimatum to move David out of harm's way.

 

[marks]

I do agree that it's oath the time to actually understand another person's stance/beliefs, before trying to critque it-- lest we all end wasting time attacking positions no one actually holds!

Hi Jane Doe,

This is sometimes something people either consciously or not do to divert a debate away from having to make an actual rebuttal to an assertion. And if often works, if people aren't paying attention.

Much love!
Mark

 

[Dave L]

Hi Jane Doe,

This is sometimes something people either consciously or not do to divert a debate away from having to make an actual rebuttal to an assertion. And if often works, if people aren't paying attention.

Much love!
Mark

So who is judging motives now?