What Was Israel Ordained For?

[CoreIssue]

The word Hebrew comes from Eber of the OT. Abraham was a Hebrew in that lineage. You can look that up in Genesis.

Most Caucasian peoples are Hebrews. I also count myself as a Gentile with probably Hebrew origin. But our Lord Jesus really made this of none effect, because per Romans 9 those who are of the Promise (by Faith) are now counted for the seed of Israel.

Who are the Hebrews?
Hebrew | people

 

[Davy]

And yet God recognizes Ephraim/Joseph as one of the tribes of Israel in Revelation 7 and Ezekiel 48.

The Gentiles nations, on the other hand, will always remain nations, as we see here:

THE TWELVE TRIBES
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel (Rev 7:4)

THE GENTILE NATIONS
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands (Rev 7:9)

So whoever told you that Ephraim = the Western nations is just deceiving you.

Well, Rev.7 doesn't mention Ephraim, but Joseph and Manasseh instead.

Only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi there in Rev.7 represent the Jews who believe on Jesus. The rest are all scattered ten tribe Israelites among the nations, i.e., they think they are Gentiles and are not known as Jews. The Jews know their heritage from Israel. The lost ten tribes do not, nor do the Jews know who those lost tribes are today.

Per Genesis 48, Jacob said let his name (Israel) be named upon the two sons of Joseph. And then Jacob blessed them, and said Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations". Now the nation of Israel has only every been but ONE nation, not a multitude of nations. Ephraim was to have an Israelite heritage per Jacob, so where is the multitude of ISRAELITE nations that Ephraim was promised to become?

Not only was this multiple nations of Israel promised to Ephraim's seed, but God promised it first through Jacob...

Gen 35:10-11
10 And God said unto him, 'Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name': and He called his name Israel.
11 And God said unto him, 'I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
KJV

Jacob's seed was to become also "a company of nations"??? Yes! The "commonwealth of Israel" is what Apostle Paul called it in Ephesians 2! (A commonwealth is a joined community, in this case, a company of nations).

So where did The Gospel of Jesus Christ next take hold after the Passion of Christ?? Among the nations of Asia Minor and Europe. Did you not know that those nations were worshiping pagan idols before The Gospel was preached to them, and they miraculously put down their idols (most did) and became the historical Christian nations??? That's the "multitude of nations" of Ephraim. It's about Gentiles and Israelites joined together under The Gospel of Jesus Christ. (And that even though some there would not accept Jesus, and even more so today as many in the Christian west that once believed now also reject Him).

 

[marks]

if we truly understand Scripture by The Holy Spirit, then The Holy Spirit will also show us how teach folks at different levels in their education and understanding.

Agreed.

But we always need to be able to present the Scriptures that clearly state our doctrine.

I think I'm getting a better handle on what you are presenting.

And Davy . . . I want to tell you how much I appreciate the discussion!

I'd like to center in on a couple of points.

This one . . .

But David's throne, not there in Jerusalem anymore.

Ezekiel 37:23b-25
". . . so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Do you see this literally fulfilled, that Israel will return to it's promised land, with David ruling over them?

Apostle Paul understood this, otherwise he would not have preached this to Gentile believers on Christ Jesus:

Eph 2:11-20
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Why do you think Paul would keep that label "commonwealth of Israel" there applied to believing Gentiles also? It's because that is exactly what God was revealing through His OT prophets about His Kingdom in final. Enlarge the tent God said through Isaiah, to make room for the Gentiles (Isaiah 54). Israel is still going to be a nation in God's future Kingdom, but it's going to be made up mostly of Christ's body of believers that serve Him. Remember what God originally ordained Israel for, i.e., to be a kingdom of priests (Ex.19:6; 1 Pet.2:5; Rev.1:6).

The were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, but now, having been far away, they are brought close.

But I don't see where this passages says that those who were strangers to the commonwealth of Israel have been now included in the commonwealth of Israel.

You are including the gentiles as part of Israel, that is correct?

In Romans 9, this is also why Paul quoted from Hosea about God having mercy on a people that were not a people (i.e., Gentiles).

The prophecies in Hosea were actually written to the ten tribes, and not to Gentiles. Yet Paul quoted Hosea to Gentile Romans. This is why.

Because the ten lost tribes were scattered among the Gentiles, it had to be they and... Gentile believers, that Apostle Paul was preaching these things to. And both... together, would become one body in Christ Jesus.

And yet, God calling the Gentiles His own people isn't the same as calling them Israel, is it?

Rom 4:12-17
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before Him Whom he believed, even God, Who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
KJV

A father of many nations, the gentile nations and Israel, not a single nation, or Israel only. Right?

Much love!
Mark

 

[CoreIssue]

Well, Rev.7 doesn't mention Ephraim, but Joseph and Manasseh instead.

Only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi there in Rev.7 represent the Jews who believe on Jesus. The rest are all scattered ten tribe Israelites among the nations, i.e., they think they are Gentiles and are not known as Jews. The Jews know their heritage from Israel. The lost ten tribes do not, nor do the Jews know who those lost tribes are today.

Per Genesis 48, Jacob said let his name (Israel) be named upon the two sons of Joseph. And then Jacob blessed them, and said Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations". Now the nation of Israel has only every been but ONE nation, not a multitude of nations. Ephraim was to have an Israelite heritage per Jacob, so where is the multitude of ISRAELITE nations that Ephraim was promised to become?

Not only was this multiple nations of Israel promised to Ephraim's seed, but God promised it first through Jacob...

Gen 35:10-11
10 And God said unto him, 'Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name': and He called his name Israel.
11 And God said unto him, 'I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
KJV

Jacob's seed was to become also "a company of nations"??? Yes! The "commonwealth of Israel" is what Apostle Paul called it in Ephesians 2! (A commonwealth is a joined community, in this case, a company of nations).

So where did The Gospel of Jesus Christ next take hold after the Passion of Christ?? Among the nations of Asia Minor and Europe. Did you not know that those nations were worshiping pagan idols before The Gospel was preached to them, and they miraculously put down their idols (most did) and became the historical Christian nations??? That's the "multitude of nations" of Ephraim. It's about Gentiles and Israelites joined together under The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Revelation says all 12 tribes are there. Does not mean the totality, all 12 tribes are represented.

Ephraim is part of Joseph.

 

[Davy]

Who is the pronoun referring to? I would say "shiloh", from the KJV. I understand that there are some intricacies in the Hebrew on this part.

This is the same passage in Brenton's Septuagint translation:

Genesis 49:8-12 Brenton
(8) Juda, thy brethren have praised thee, and thy hands shall be on the back of thine enemies; thy father's sons shall do thee reverence.
(9) Juda is a lion's whelp: from the tender plant, my son, thou art gone up, having couched thou liest as a lion, and as a whelp; who shall stir him up?
(10) A ruler shall not fail from Juda, nor a prince from his loins, until there come the things stored up for him; and he is the expectation of nations.
(11) Binding his foal to the vine, and the foal of his ass to the branch of it, he shall wash his robe in wine, and his garment in the blood of the grape.
(12) His eyes shall be more cheering than wine, and his teeth whiter than milk.

Much love!
Mark

Even though that version leaves out "Shiloh" I believe it's fairly simple when verse 11-12 that are linked back to verse 10 are included. Who is it born of Judah that would ride the foal and ass? Our Lord Jesus...

Zech 9:9
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
KJV

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

That's interesting!

Lost in the sense of Benjamin in the book of Judges, is that the idea?

It must be the majority of the 10 tribes, to my thinking.

So then, the Jews spoke of the 10 Lost Tribes as that Israel was 12 tribes, and went down to 2, except the small remnent, the other 10 lost to the nations.

And others speak of the 10 Lost Tribes as hidden among the gentiles, and we can claim identity as those.

Like that?

Much love!
Mark

Yes, when they were taken out of their land (or left it voluntarily), they ceased to be an entity known as the "Tribe of Asher", the "Tribe of Dan," the "Tribe of Gad" etc. The only two tribes who maintained their identity were Judah and Benjamin.

 

[farouk]

John the Apostle said in 1st John that anyone who denies that Jesus is the Son of God is Antichrist--and this, of course, is true of the Jewish religion. But it is also true of Islam. I believe that God the Father will do a work among both Jews and Muslims (in fact, He already is--many of both are coming to recognize their Savior, Jesus).

It's interesting that John's First Epistle refers to 'many antichrists'.

 

[marks]

Even though that version leaves out "Shiloh" I believe it's fairly simple when verse 11-12 that are linked back to verse 10 are included. Who is it born of Judah that would ride the foal and ass? Our Lord Jesus...

Zech 9:9
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
KJV

Not so much that it leaves out Shiloh, it translates instead of transliterates.

At the end of the day we see this part the same, whether we name Him Shiloh, or refer to Him as the rightful ruler, we're both talking about Jesus.

But I don't follow you on what this has to do with the throne of David. That's where you're making the connection, is that right? Yes, these threads, being active on several, where they don't nest the quotes, becomes confusing.

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

@Davy

I want to mention I'm still giving thought to the Ezekiel 37 passage of the 2 sticks. This does seem to carry the ball right over, past, the nation in Jesus' day. I may come to a different conclusion, but it makes a lot of sense that this connects the earlier dispersions to the later regathering, not just the latest dispersion. Follow me? I'm not sure I do! LOL!

Hmmm.

Much love!

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

@Davy

I want to mention I'm still giving thought to the Ezekiel 37 passage of the 2 sticks. This does seem to carry the ball right over, past, the nation in Jesus' day. I may come to a different conclusion, but it makes a lot of sense that this connects the earlier dispersions to the later regathering, not just the latest dispersion. Follow me? I'm not sure I do! LOL!

Hmmm.

Much love!

There's also the fact that there has never been such a Temple as the one portrayed by Ezekiel. Much of the Book of Ezekiel is set in the future (a future that may be close now).

 

[Jay Ross]

Ezekiel 37:23b-25
". . . so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Do you see this literally fulfilled, that Israel will return to it's promised land, with David ruling over them?

Marks the problem the quote from Ez.37:23b-25 is that God was talking about the whole earth which he had also promised to Abraham and Isaac, not the "Promised Land" as is the usually understood tradition of God's promise to Abraham in Gen.15:18-21, which was for a defined period of time which started when Joshua lead Israel across the Jordan River and ended in 70 AD.

In Gen.12:1 God said that Abraham was to go towards an earth that He would show him.

Now if, when using the Hubbible.com site for Ez.37:25 and go to the Interlinear display for the verse and click on the transliterated word above the word land, then the resulting list of verses that contain the Transliterated word " hā·’ā·reṣ " starts with Gen.1:1 which is translated as "earth," however in Gen.12.1 this same Hebrew word is translated as "land" because God was wanting Abraham to go on a journey with Him to a place where He would show him in the distant future, but the traditional theological understanding of the journey that Abraham was on was that Abraham was to go to the Land of Canaan close by.

God's promise of Abraham's descendants inheriting the whole earth was something that would occur after the passing of another 5 ages, i.e. a little longer over 5,000 years.

God scattered Israel for a purpose and when He will gather them back to Himself, they will remain where they will be living throughout the whole earth to become His people to be a blessing to all of the people of the whole earth during the last age.

Do I see this literally fulfilled, that Israel will return to it's promised land?

My understanding is that they will not. Nor is it a requirement for God's purposes so that Israel will be a blessing to all of the people of the whole earth.

Is God promise for the Saints in Daniel.7 the promise land or is it all of earth and all of the kingdoms under the heavens?

Coming to God's understanding of what is contained within His Plan for the salvation of the whole earth will lead us to a righteous earth that we will inherit at the end of the age of the Ages and not to a little piece of land associated with being near the dead sea.

Shalom

 

[marks]

Marks the problem the quote from Ez.37:23b-25 is that God was talking about the whole earth which he had also promised to Abraham and Isaac, not the "Promised Land" as is the usually understood tradition of God's promise to Abraham in Gen.15:18-21, which was for a defined period of time which started when Joshua lead Israel across the Jordan River and ended in 70 AD.

In Gen.12:1 God said that Abraham was to go towards an earth that He would show him.

Hi Jay,

I don't think this is right.

Abraham was already on the earth, he wouldn't have had to go anywhere. But God called Abram to go to a land (earth, if you will) that God would show him. So I'm thinking that since he had to go somewhere else, it wasn't where he was.

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

There's also the fact that there has never been such a Temple as the one portrayed by Ezekiel. Much of the Book of Ezekiel is set in the future (a future that may be close now).

Now there's an interesting thing!

The temple at the end of Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 43
9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.
10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

It seems to me that God wanted Ezekiel to show the Israelites the plans for the temple with the intent that they repent from their sins and come home from Babylon after the 70 years and build this temple. But they didn't. Only a few returned, most didn't. And they didn't build this temple.

Much love!
mark

 

[Jay Ross]

Hi Jay,

I don't think this is right.

Abraham was already on the earth, he wouldn't have had to go anywhere. But God called Abram to go to a land (earth, if you will) that God would show him. So I'm thinking that since he had to go somewhere else, it wasn't where he was.

Much love!
Mark

Marks, did you look at the list that Biblehub.com has in its database for the way " hā·’ā·reṣ " is translated in the OT.

If the context in which you look at the OT text is wrong, then the outcome of your theological understanding will also be flawed.

Was God's promise a spiritual promise or a logical man made concept which is what you have just presented.

You have just confirmed the sad truth of the matter concerning peoples understanding. Even the elect will be deceived on God's purposes within the Abrahamic Covenant.

Shalom

 

[Enoch111]

Well, Rev.7 doesn't mention Ephraim, but Joseph and Manasseh instead.

As I already pointed out "Joseph" stands for "Ephraim" (and we can only surmise why). Now kindly go to Ezekiel 48 and notice that Ephraim is Ephraim. So that settles the issue of the nations not being Ephraim.

 

[marks]

Marks, did you look at the list that Biblehub.com has in its database for the way " hā·’ā·reṣ " is translated in the OT.

If the context in which you look at the OT text is wrong, then the outcome of your theological understanding will also be flawed.

Was God's promise a spiritual promise or a logical man made concept which is what you have just presented.

You have just confirmed the sad truth of the matter concerning peoples understanding. Even the elect will be deceived on God's purposes within the Abrahamic Covenant.

Shalom

So if I don't agree with you, I must be following some man made concept that had deceived me. This is your assertion?

To answer your question, no, I did not look at the webpage you had linked to, however, I have done word studies on this word.

You and I really do see things differently, but it has much more to do with than just this word. You ascribe meanings to statements that go well beyond what is stated, in my opinion. You ascribe lengthy timelines where I don't see it in the text.

I feel that my interpretations are based on a more literal reading of the Bible.

Was there more to your post than to disparage me?

Much love!

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Today Jew refers to any Israelite.

It does not matter if they are into Judaism, Christianity or anything else. They are still Jews.

Revelation specifically shows all 12 tribes still exist. Genuine Jews. Not Gentiles.

Nonsense, to be Jewish you have to believe and follow the OT, just as it is with a Christian who must Follow Jesus Christ.

The true Israelite is a born again Christian, because such serve the King of Israel.

Do you claim that the True worthy OT Israelites who came to know and followed their King Jesus Christ are called Jews ? no they are not Jews at all because they then became Christians in fact !
Fact is all within Christianity their is neater Jew or Gentile, did you know that fact.
Oh I am a Jewish Christian ? Oh I am a Budda Christian etc or I am a Black Christian etc or I am a American Christian or a Australian Christian ect ect, what a load of hogwash.
No ! one is a Christian first and foremost and nothing is added too.

Anyone who does not understand who Jesus Christ is and does not follow him is just some poor lost bastard who is not worthy regardless, the only thing one need understand is the OT Books are a blue print for the NT, so any so called Jew claiming out side of our OT books is in fact outside of God.

So anyone claiming to be a Jew that is not coming from the perspective of OT Books is a bastard, as to the OT, so any so called Jew who is following the Talmud Books is only worthy of Satan and not worthy to be called Israelite at all what soever, even back in the OT days.

The Talmud is a Whore and it has totally bastardised Judaism and is like a Pox on Christianity, that some so called Christians have turned from Christ Jesus to worship this Whore that is leading the whole world astray.

 

[CoreIssue]

Nonsense, to be Jewish you have to believe and follow the OT, just as it is with a Christian who must Follow Jesus Christ.

The true Israelite is a born again Christian, because such serve the King of Israel.

Do you claim that the True worthy OT Israelites who came to know and followed their King Jesus Christ are called Jews ? no they are not Jews at all because they then became Christians in fact !
Fact is all within Christianity their is neater Jew or Gentile, did you know that fact.
Oh I am a Jewish Christian ? Oh I am a Budda Christian etc or I am a Black Christian etc or I am a American Christian or a Australian Christian ect ect, what a load of hogwash.
No ! one is a Christian first and foremost and nothing is added too.

Anyone who does not understand who Jesus Christ is and does not follow him is just some poor lost bastard who is not worthy regardless, the only thing one need understand is the OT Books are a blue print for the NT, so any so called Jew claiming out side of our OT books is in fact outside of God.

So anyone claiming to be a Jew that is not coming from the perspective of OT Books is a bastard, as to the OT, so any so called Jew who is following the Talmud Books is only worthy of Satan and not worthy to be called Israelite at all what soever, even back in the OT days.

The Talmud is a Whore and it has totally bastardised Judaism and is like a Pox on Christianity, that some so called Christians have turned from Christ Jesus to worship this Whore that is leading the whole world astray.

The Bible doesn't say that.

 

[Jay Ross]

So if I don't agree with you, I must be following some man made concept that had deceived me. This is your assertion?

To answer your question, no, I did not look at the webpage you had linked to, however, I have done word studies on this word.

You and I really do see things differently, but it has much more to do with than just this word. You ascribe meanings to statements that go well beyond what is stated, in my opinion. You ascribe lengthy timelines where I don't see it in the text.

I feel that my interpretations are based on a more literal reading of the Bible.

Was there more to your post than to disparage me?

Much love!

Mark, you are becoming more defensive on this forum than on another site where we have interacted previously and now you seem to me to be more concerned with your image of being a person of understanding rather that a person who has right understanding.

You say that you have done a word study on the Hebrew word " hā·’ā·reṣ " but you have not presented any argument which justifies that the English understanding of this Hebrew word can have more than one meaning. Up and until Genesis.11 " hā·’ā·reṣ " is translated as "earth" and after that it is translated as either "earth," "land," "country" etc. which is why I state that the theological understanding becomes skewed, particularly when we consider later OT passages and their implications concerning Israel's inheritance.

If we have a focus on the land, as described in Gen.15:17-21, the giving of that land to Abraham's descendants was as a sign confirmation covenant in answer to Abraham's question in verse 15:8, where Abraham askes God, "How will I know that I shall possess/inherit it, i.e. the whole earth?" to which God responded with a Solemn covenantal promise as set out in the verses 17-21 which describes the land that Abraham's descendants would posses for a period of time, as confirmation that, in the distant futre, they will inherit the whole earth.

Mark, many years ago, I too had this same understanding that God's promise to Abraham was "land" that He would show him, but after the work I did in GIS data base design, I became aware of the need to be consistent with my understanding of the words used in the original text records of the scriptures. Now a particular root word has a particular meaning and its meaning is qualified by the overall word in which the root word is embedded. A measure of communication accuracy can be defined as the reader/hearer of a "word" should come to the same understanding of the writers/speakers "word" when it was given. Does this test of communication accuracy confirm your views on the Abrahamic Covenant?

This same issue is also found in the "traditional" understanding of Christ's parables where we also have some differences.

Yes, I agree that being a person who has right understanding, is very dependant on the measuring stick being used, but sadly many of the OT prophets were considered to be heretics by the "scholarly teachers" of their day and were treated badly as such by these "scholars" and the people that they had influence over. What was Christs words on the previous treatment of the prophets that God had sent? He said that the "scholars" and "teachers" of His day were just as guilty as their fathers were who had killed and ridiculed the prophets of the past.

I wonder if this is still the case today?

Shalom

 

[marks]

Mark, you are becoming more defensive

Is that so?

Much love!
Mark