Christ vs the anti-Christ: Who is winning?

[Marymog]

I'm a person who's
1) not here to convince everyone else my views are correct
2) here to really listen to each other, better understand, and better love each other. Even if I totally disagree with people.

Though I do admittedly find your and tzcho2 going at it like twins to be funny.

Your pot and kettle snipe has nothing to do with you listening, better understanding or better love of anyone.

It was trolling.....;)

troll (/troʊl, trɒl/) is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community....

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Your pot and kettle snipe has nothing to do with you listening, better understanding or better love of anyone.

It was trolling.....;)

troll (/troʊl, trɒl/) is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community....

Speaking just for myself: I am not remotely here to upset anyone. In fact, I strive for the opposite.

 

[CoreIssue]

Speaking just for myself: I am not remotely here to upset anyone. In fact, I strive for the opposite.

You strive to make Mormonism acceptable. As the Catholics tried to make to Catholicism the only true church.

 

[tzcho2]

hi,

Nice twisting of Scripture. Your "symbol" teaching is about 500 years old. You are following the tradition of Protestant men. I am sure there is no way to change your mind on that passage so we should look at other passages concerning baptism.

Get up, be baptized and wash your sins..... If ones sins are washed away, wouldn't they be saved?

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God”....Unless you are born of water and Spirit (which is what happens in baptism) you can't go to heaven. Symbolic? Hmmmm.....horrible theory and horrible opinion

Writings from the 1st and 2nd century Christians DISAGREE with your THEORY. (Hermas, Justin Martyr, Tertullian)

Sooooo who should I believe? You and your opinion that you have presented 2,000 years after the death of the last Apostle or the people who lived in the time of the Apostles? I think you know whom I choose.....;)

Have you read what the Didache says about baptism?

Mary

Believe only what the Bible says, not man-made writings.
The term "symbolizes" is not 500 yrs old. It is the original greek translation of "antitypon"
Strong's Concordance
antitupos: struck back, corresponding to
Original Word: ἀντίτυπος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: antitupos
Phonetic Spelling: (an-teet'-oo-pon)
Definition: struck back, "corresponding to"
Usage: typical of, representing by type (or pattern), corresponding to, an image.
Therefore "Antitypon" was translated as "symbolic"

Only the Bible was written by the Holy Spirit through a few chosen men. Biblically focused Christianity holds that only the Bible Scripture is Divinely inspired instruction- literally " God-breathed" as the scripture states , so born again Holy Spirit filled (born again) Christians study & use only the Bible scripture as the inerrant Word of God---not any man-made writings.
2Tim 3:16 : "16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.…"

 

[brakelite]

I have The Church backed by 2,000 years of teaching and you have YOU as your pre-eminent authority in faith and practice.

No. I have the word of Christ dwelling richly in me with all wisdom. Christ in me the hope of glory. It is in Him and Him alone in whom I trust, for I know Him in whom I believe.
Col.3:16

 

[tzcho2]

Scripture says even baptism doth also now save us. You say it doesn't save. Your OPINION is opposite of Scripture.

Can you see why it is difficult to have a serious conversation with you when you spout your opinion instead of facts?

Mary

No sprinkling of water on an infant doesn't save, the Bible doesn't teach that. The Rcc is not The church, never was ,never will be. Those who read the scripture with a seeking heart God pulls them out of the Rcc. Preaching a false gospel of works to earn salvation & other false dogma, the Rcc shows itself to be against Christ's church in actuality. Historically the Rcc has been a persecutor of Christ's church & the Jews.

 

[farouk]

Tragically the fact is some of the Most Lost and spiritually deceived people can be quite friendly & say " Bless You" & post happy faces and blow kisses all day long but that does not save their souls from the penalty for their sins & neither does following false teachings no matter what they be. One can only surmise that Joseph Smith was visited by deceiving spirits/ demonic spirits , not the LORD God or Jesus Christ of the Bible ,nor any angel, and Smith taught these false teachings & some spiritually deceived people have believed him because they have turned to fairy-tales just as it says in 2 Tim 4:3.
One day all false religions like Mormonism etc... will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Mormonism has nothing to do with the Savior, Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God who is revealed only in the Holy scriptures of the Bible. When someone has a relationship with the True Jesus of the Bible, the Holy Spirit exposes deception /spiritual blindness & leads the person away from the false teachings or cults such as Mormonism.

I pray that God frees you from the spiritual self-deception & shows you that Mormonism is from the devil & was a lie to cause anyone he could to not find the true Jesus & eternal salvation.
2Tim 4:3 " 2Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and encourage with every form of patient instruction. 3 For The TIME Will Come When Men (& Women) Will Not Tolerate Sound Doctrine, But With Itching Ears They Will Gather Around Themselves Teachers To suit Their Own Desires . 4 So They Will Turn Their Ears Away From the Truth and Turn Aside To MYTHS.…

Great verse there at 2 Timothy 4.3.

 

[farouk]

No sprinkling of water on an infant doesn't save, the Bible doesn't teach that. The Rcc is not The church, never was ,never will be. Those who read the scripture with a seeking heart God pulls them out of the Rcc. Preaching a false gospel of works to earn salvation & other false dogma, the Rcc shows itself to be against Christ's church in actuality. Historically the Rcc has been a persecutor of Christ's church & the Jews.

It must be on the basis of the spiritual "Ye must be born again" (John 3).

 

[Marymog]

Believe only what the Bible says, not man-made writings.
The term "symbolizes" is not 500 yrs old. It is the original greek translation of "antitypon"
Strong's Concordance
antitupos: struck back, corresponding to
Original Word: ἀντίτυπος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: antitupos
Phonetic Spelling: (an-teet'-oo-pon)
Definition: struck back, "corresponding to"
Usage: typical of, representing by type (or pattern), corresponding to, an image.
Therefore "Antitypon" was translated as "symbolic"

Only the Bible was written by the Holy Spirit through a few chosen men. Biblically focused Christianity holds that only the Bible Scripture is Divinely inspired instruction- literally " God-breathed" as the scripture states , so born again Holy Spirit filled (born again) Christians study & use only the Bible scripture as the inerrant Word of God---not any man-made writings.
2Tim 3:16 : "16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.…"

Hi,

I never said that the word 'symbolizes' is 500 years old. I said your theory is that old.....stop twisting my words.

I agree with you that Scripture is USEFUL (not the only method) for instruction, for correction, and for training in righteousness. So I will use Scripture (OT and NT) AND 2,000 years of Church teaching/practice for training purpose's to teach you:

The first creation came from the earth which was covered with WATER and the SPIRIT hovered over the waters. Gen 1

God told Noah to build the Ark because he was going to use water to destroy sin (the sinful people) of the world. We want to think of Noah family being saved FROM the water instead of realizing the significance of inspiration's word that "eight souls were saved BY WATER". Those in the ark were saved by means of the water. The ark went through the water, saved them, and a dove (representing the Spirit) hovered overhead with an olive branch. Noah’s ark is referred to as a type of baptism: "In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" Genesis 6, Genesis 8:10-11, 1 Peter 3:18-21

THE OT WATER THAT SAVED NOAH AND HIS FAMILY AND DESTROYED SIN ON THE EARTH ARE PRE-SYMBOLIC OF THE NT BAPTISM......YOU HAVE TWISTED IT TO MEAN SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

Water and Spirit are seen again when we see the Israelites going through the Red sea (water), however, what was there leading them? A pillar of fire. What does fire symbolize? The Holy Spirit!! Water was used to 'save Israel that day from the hand of the Egyptians'. Once again, water is used to save His chosen people AND destroy the enemy AND the Spirit was present . Exodus 14

Ezekiel describes what the New Covenant will look like. He said, I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness's. Ezekiel 36:25

Jesus tells Nicodemus that a person cannot enter the kingdom of God without being born again. Nicodemus asks how a man might enter again into his mother’s womb and Jesus corrects him, saying, "No one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born of water and the Spirit". Immediately after this exchange with Nicodemus Jesus immediately goes out with his disciples and begins baptizing. John 3

Jesus, right before saying you must be born of “water and the Spirit,” had just gone down into the WATER of the Jordan and the SPIRIT came down and landed on his head. Again, water and the Spirit. Mt 3:16; Jn 1:29

Converts to Christianity asked Peter what they must do to be saved. Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized....for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit". Acts 2

Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name. Acts 22:16

...he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5

So now we come to what the earliest Christians taught instead of your opinion 2,000 years later:

Baptism could consist (but not preferred) of pouring water three times on the head "in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost."
And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before. DIDACHE (70AD)

Why should everyone fast before baptism if it does or means nothing; it's just a symbol??????

For our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost. He was born and baptized, that by His passion He might purify the water. AD 107, St. Ignatius, Epistle to the Ephesians, 18

Christ was not purified by being baptized since He was already pure. In His baptism the waters were purified for our sake, that when we are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit we are purified; not by the removal of dirt from the body, but by the forgiveness of sin and the reception of the Life of God within us.

“This means that we go down into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up bearing fruit in our hearts, fear and hope in Jesus and in the Spirit.” Epistle of Barnabas A.D. 130

The notion that baptism bears immediate fruit in the heart implies that baptism regenerates the baptized person.

For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. . . . The reason for this we have received from the Apostles.” Justin Martyr, 150 AD

Justin Martyr, who was writing about fifty years after the death of the Apostle John, claims that they received from the Apostles the doctrine that through baptism they receive “remission of sins that are past”, and through baptism they are “regenerated” in the same manner that all Christians were regenerated.

Sooooooo please tell me why I should take your opinion about baptism over what Scripture actually says and what the early Christians wrote who lived closest to the times of the Apostles?? Should I believe what YOU wrote or what THEY wrote???


Bible Study and Historical Mary

 

[Marymog]

Speaking just for myself: I am not remotely here to upset anyone. In fact, I strive for the opposite.

OK.....you still meet the other criteria: posting digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community....

Mary

 

[Marymog]

No. I have the word of Christ dwelling richly in me with all wisdom. Christ in me the hope of glory. It is in Him and Him alone in whom I trust, for I know Him in whom I believe.
Col.3:16

Yup.....YOU have the word of Christ in YOU and YOU have all wisdom........the men of the CC or any other Church that YOU disagree with are wrong.....you are always right.....

Romans 10:3

Mary

 

[Jane_Doe22]

OK.....you still meet the other criteria: posting digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community....

Mary

Mary, I try my best to be constructive, respectful, and reply to what's actually being talked about in a thread.

 

[Marymog]

No sprinkling of water on an infant doesn't save, the Bible doesn't teach that. The Rcc is not The church, never was ,never will be. Those who read the scripture with a seeking heart God pulls them out of the Rcc. Preaching a false gospel of works to earn salvation & other false dogma, the Rcc shows itself to be against Christ's church in actuality. Historically the Rcc has been a persecutor of Christ's church & the Jews.

The bible is silent on "infant" baptism but it does say that entire households were baptized. Do you think there were any "infants" in a household in the 1st Century? Luke 18:15 says, “Now they were bringing even infants to him....Also, Jesus said Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. Why are you refusing to let Jesus children come to Him when the NT Christians practiced opposite of your opinion?

If the CC is not The Church then which Church is The Church spoken of in Scripture??

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Mary, I try my best to be constructive, respectful, and reply to what's actually being talked about in a thread.

Got it...You had a weak moment. I forgive you.

Mary

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Got it...You had a weak moment. I forgive you.

Mary

Mary, snark is not helpful to any conversation.

 

[Marymog]

Mary, snark is not helpful to any conversation.

Neither is trolling and sniping.....

You said that you TRY your best to be constructive, respectful, and reply to what's actually being talked about in a thread.

Since you were NONE of those (constructive, respectful) and you did not reply to what was actually being talked about in the thread (it was OFF TOPIC) in your trolling of my conversation with someone else that means you FAILED at what you were TRYING to do.

I'm not mad at you and I have forgiven you.....What more to you want? Are you upset that I called you out for trolling???

Ready to move on Mary

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Neither is trolling and sniping.....

You said that you TRY your best to be constructive, respectful, and reply to what's actually being talked about in a thread.

Since you were NONE of those (constructive, respectful) and you did not reply to what was actually being talked about in the thread (it was OFF TOPIC) in your trolling of my conversation with someone else that means you FAILED at what you were TRYING to do.

I'm not mad at you and I have forgiven you.....What more to you want? Are you upset that I called you out for trolling???

Ready to move on Mary

Mary, I have shared my perspective constructively. Offered helpful tips on talking about Christ, and been respectful on you and your beliefs.
I am sorry it upsets you that 1) I am not Catholic, and 2) I am also attacked at length by certain individuals that just believe nonsense about everyone else's faith. Such attacks were not my choice, nor am I responsible for that person's actions.

Let us move forward without snark, and with real respect.

 

[bbyrd009]

nice witness there JD, ty

 

[Marymog]

Mary, I have shared my perspective constructively. Offered helpful tips on talking about Christ, and been respectful on you and your beliefs.
I am sorry it upsets you that 1) I am not Catholic, and 2) I am also attacked at length by certain individuals that just believe nonsense about everyone else's faith. Such attacks were not my choice, nor am I responsible for that person's actions.

Let us move forward without snark, and with real respect.

Yup....Post #435 was real constructive....;)

I am not upset that you are not Catholic.....How did you come up with that false belief?

When was I snarky???

You showed no respect in post #435....IMO

Mary

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Yup....Post #435 was real constructive....;)

I was highlighting how you and another post use the exact same approach to conversation.

I am not upset that you are not Catholic.....How did you come up with that false belief?

My beliefs are the result of thorough scripture study, speaking with God, and some pondering of misc information. I do not find history to be a strong epistemological method, as "history" is the account written by the political victors of any stance and then interpreted from another person's lens. Hence the frequent RCC appeal to history really doesn't sway me.

When was I snarky???

Most recently: this very post, the lines above and below this question.