BAPTISM SAVES, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS"

[ScottA]

That's NON-answer.
Explain why Paul was using such harsh and cautionary language for something that is a mere symbol.

"JUDGMENT" is a salvation matter.

Because the symbolic message needed to be presented by the church to all generations.

Which they should have done for each generation, but then interpreted and "pressed on", "leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment"...as Paul also preached.

...Which you wrongly say against Paul's word, are not dead, but the living body and blood of Christ...which they never were.

 

[GodsGrace]

My belief: it is symbolically taking Him in. Not literal, symbolic.
Obviously I acknowledge others beliefs other things.

Go ask God. He will answer you.

Guess He's not talking to me.
Or, He's telling different person's different truths.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Guess He's not talking to me.

Might I suggest that building a good open-communication channel with God is an important part of being His disciple?
Which is NOT to say it comes easy-- no no!! It's a LOT of work to learn to listen to the still small voice, and a lesson we each learn again and again over our lives. Don't be disheartened, He is there. If you heart is honestly seeking Him (which by all means it seems like you totally are), He will help you learn the sound of His voice. It takes time/effort, but He is there.

 

[ScottA]

Yes...This is what my brother always tells me.
Thanks for reminding me....

My words are spirit and they are life.
He didn't say my body is life if you eat it...
But He did say, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son...
What would this mean?

What is anything that is used to make a spiritual point? It is the object of a parable about something completely different. The object of a parable is never the subject - that is what makes it a parable. And this we can rightly say is a parable, because Jesus gives the terms, saying "My words are spirit", and "the flesh profits nothing", which are just a few passages that indicate the very clear fact that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven."

Thus, the parable must be discerned spiritually (interpreted, not by men, but by the Holy Spirit), which is no great feat, for it is common knowledge that to eat and to drink spiritually, is "to partake of." Therefore, how do we spiritually partake of Christ? This, He has told us, is a process of being born again of the spirit of God, that we may be One with "the only Begotten of the Father", whom is Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Might I suggest that building a good open-communication channel with God is an important part of being His disciple?
Which is NOT to say it comes easy-- no no!! It's a LOT of work to learn to listen to the still small voice, and a lesson we each learn again and again over our lives. Don't be disheartened, He is there. If you heart is honestly seeking Him (which by all means it seems like you totally are), He will help you learn the sound of His voice. It takes time/effort, but He is there.

I was being sarcastic.
Lighten up.
:)

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I was being sarcastic.
Lighten up.
:)

Oh. *blush* Totally missed that, sorry.

 

[GodsGrace]

What is anything that is used to make a spiritual point? It is the object of a parable about something completely different. The object of a parable is never the subject - that is what makes it a parable. But this we can rightly say, because Jesus gives the terms, saying "My words are spirit", and "the flesh profits nothing", which are just a few passages that indicate the very clear fact that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven."

Thus, the parable must be discerned spiritually (interpreted by the Holy Spirit), which is no great feat, for it is common knowledge that to eat and to drink spiritually, is "to partake of." Therefore, how do we spiritually partake of Christ? This, He has told us, is a process of being born again of the spirit of God, that we may be One with "the only Begotten of the Father", whom is Christ.

Partaking....
OK

I just don't equate that flesh and blood cannot enter into heaven with our need for Jesus.
I feel the same about baptism, for instance.
Why would it be necessary if everything is spirit??
Jesus said to do this so we should.
But, really, why????
See what I mean?
I don't expect you to really answer that....

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh. *blush* Totally missed that, sorry.

LOL
Not easy to communicate here!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Because the symbolic message needed to be presented by the church to all generations.

Which they should have done for each generation, but then interpreted and "pressed on", "leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment"...as Paul also preached.

...Which you wrongly say against Paul's word, are not dead, but the living body and blood of Christ...which they never were.

Sooooo, lemme get this straight . . .

YOU are saying that Paul was warning the Corinthians that their UNWORTHY reception of communion was NOT because it was the Body and Blood of Christ – even though he explicitly says it is.

YOU say that they were eating and drinking JUDGMENT ono themselves simply because they didn’t take a “symbol” seriously??

Talk about some fancy Scriptural acrobatics . . .
How about just taking what Paul said I correlation with what Christ Himself said:

John 6:53-55
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat (trogon) the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is TRUE FOOD, and my blood is TRUE DRINK.

Matt. 26:26
“Take and eat; this IS my body.”

Matt. 26:27-28
“Drink from it, all of you, l for this IS my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.


Can't get more explicit than that . . .

 

[ScottA]

Partaking....
OK

I just don't equate that flesh and blood cannot enter into heaven with our need for Jesus.
I feel the same about baptism, for instance.
Why would it be necessary if everything is spirit??
Jesus said to do this so we should.
But, really, why????
See what I mean?
I don't expect you to really answer that....

I do see what you mean. But you are mixing the children's first introduction with what should be understood by the mature. Just as we tell our own children elementary stories which are not lies, but are caring examples of what is to come later in life, God too has done this with His word and with the practices that are first given. Much like the law that was first written on stone tablets, then in the heart...we are not to stay under the stone tablet law, nor are we to stay under the practice of water baptism and taking the communion elements. The practice we do until we are ready to mature and eat the whole food of Christ, which is spirit. We also continue in the practice as an example to those just coming into the fold who are yet babes needing milk.

In this same way, the whole world and every word from God, is not about the things of this world...but a parable leading to understanding the things of God and the kingdom.

 

[ScottA]

Sooooo, lemme get this straight . . .

YOU are saying that Paul was warning the Corinthians that their UNWORTHY reception of communion was NOT because it was the Body and Blood of Christ – even though he explicitly says it is.

YOU say that they were eating and drinking JUDGMENT ono themselves simply because they didn’t take a “symbol” seriously??

Talk about some fancy Scriptural acrobatics . . .
How about just taking what Paul said I correlation with what Christ Himself said:

John 6:53-55
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat (trogon) the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is TRUE FOOD, and my blood is TRUE DRINK.

Matt. 26:26
“Take and eat; this IS my body.”

Matt. 26:27-28
“Drink from it, all of you, l for this IS my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.


Can't get more explicit than that . . .

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying anything of my own, only what Paul said.

But since you are not factoring in all of what he said, I am...which does not end with a meal of flesh and blood, but with the knowledge of all truth, which things are spiritual.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying anything of my own, only what Paul said.

But since you are not factoring in all of what he said, I am...which does not end with a meal of flesh and blood, but with the knowledge of all truth, which things are spiritual.

1 Cor. 19:23-32
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.
A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.
That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.

If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment; but since we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

Paul is clearly talking about Communion – the Lord’s Supper.
He is describing a reality here of consuming the Body and blood of Christ and NOT a mere symbol.

HOW do we know this?
Because of the dire warnings he gives about eating and drinking JUDGMENT ono themselves for unworthily consuming the Eucharist. ANY attempt to pass this off as a mere “symbol” is a perversion of what Paul wrote.

 

[ScottA]

1 Cor. 19:23-32
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.
A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.
That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.

If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment; but since we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

Paul is clearly talking about Communion – the Lord’s Supper.
He is describing a reality here of consuming the Body and blood of Christ and NOT a mere symbol.

HOW do we know this?
Because of the dire warnings he gives about eating and drinking JUDGMENT ono themselves for unworthily consuming the Eucharist. ANY attempt to pass this off as a mere “symbol” is a perversion of what Paul wrote.

No...you misunderstand.

The perversion that is unworthy, is to not to see Him "as He is", which is spirit.

But did He come in the flesh? Yes.

But what did Paul say?

"To live is Christ, and to die is gain." Which he explained, was "fruit" and a benefit to others if he stayed in the flesh, but gain to himself if he went to be with the Lord, which is of the spirit. Therefore, there is no gain to "take and eat", except for others. For the life is not in the bread, but in Christ who is risen. Thus, Jesus said to do it, not for salvation, but "in remembrance", that these things should be told among those who would otherwise perish. The warning then, is not for the living, but for the dead.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No...you misunderstand.

The perversion that is unworthy, is to not to see Him "as He is", which is spirit.

But did He come in the flesh? Yes.

But what did Paul say?

"To live is Christ, and to die is gain." Which he explained, was "fruit" and a benefit to others if he stayed in the flesh, but gain to himself if he went to be with the Lord, which is of the spirit. Therefore, there is no gain to "take and eat", except for others. For the life is not in the bread, but in Christ who is risen. Thus, Jesus said to do it, not for salvation, but "in remembrance", that these things should be told among those who would otherwise perish. The warning then, is not for the living, but for the dead.

CONTEXT, son – always context.
Time for a little Bible lesson . . .

First of all – the Word became FLESH – not the other way around.

“The flesh profits nothing” (John 6:53) is NOT about Christ’s flesh, which profits us EVERYTHING. Without His sacrifice in the flesh – YOU cannot be saved. It is about the fact that the people grumbling that day could not think on a spiritual or sacramental level. They were instead, consumed with the thought of cannibalism and were disgusted with what Jesus was saying.

Since we’re so close to Christmas – it’s interesting to note a couple of things.
- First of all – “Bethlehem” translates as “House of Bread”.
- Secondly - Jesus is the Bread of Life (John 6:31-68). He stated that if we do NOT eat His flesh and drink His blood, we have NO LIFE in us (John 6:53).
- Thirdly - the baby Jesus was laid in a manger (Luke 2:7), which is essentially a FEEDING TROUGH.

So, the Bread of Life, born in the House of Bread was laid in a Feeding Trough.

He later tells His followers that they MUST eat His flesh and drink His blood. Just as the Jews ate their Passover Lamb – the Lamb of God must ALSO be consumed. And on the night before He gives His flesh as a sacrifice for the world – He shows them HOW to consume Him sacramentally.

NONE of this was by accident – it was ALL part of God’s divine plan for salvation.
It ALL makes sense when a person is willing to trust in GOD instead of their own intellect . . .

 

[ScottA]

CONTEXT, son – always context.
Time for a little Bible lesson . . .

First of all – the Word became FLESH – not the other way around.

“The flesh profits nothing” (John 6:53) is NOT about Christ’s flesh, which profits us EVERYTHING. Without His sacrifice in the flesh – YOU cannot be saved. It is about the fact that the people grumbling that day could not think on a spiritual or sacramental level. They were instead, consumed with the thought of cannibalism and were disgusted with what Jesus was saying.

Since we’re so close to Christmas – it’s interesting to note a couple of things.
- First of all – “Bethlehem” translates as “House of Bread”.
- Secondly - Jesus is the Bread of Life (John 6:31-68). He stated that if we do NOT eat His flesh and drink His blood, we have NO LIFE in us (John 6:53).
- Thirdly - the baby Jesus was laid in a manger (Luke 2:7), which is essentially a FEEDING TROUGH.

So, the Bread of Life, born in the House of Bread was laid in a Feeding Trough.

He later tells His followers that they MUST eat His flesh and drink His blood. Just as the Jews ate their Passover Lamb – the Lamb of God must ALSO be consumed. And on the night before He gives His flesh as a sacrifice for the world – He shows them HOW to consume Him sacramentally.

NONE of this was by accident – it was ALL part of God’s divine plan for salvation.
It ALL makes sense when a person is willing to trust in GOD instead of their own intellect . . .

Your first context lesson sentence, is out of context. (rolling eyes) And, yes, that is the problem here.

We are not talking about the Word becoming FLESH, nor about bread. We are talking about the Son of God becoming "a life-giving spirit." The objects here, are not the subjects of discussion...they're just objects. But much worse than the grumblers of that time, you are not only consumed with the objects themselves and missing the point of what they represent, you have also made idol worship of them.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your first context lesson sentence, is out of context. (rolling eyes) And, yes, that is the problem here.

We are not talking about the Word becoming FLESH, nor about bread. We are talking about the Son of God becoming "a life-giving spirit." The objects here, are not the subjects of discussion...they're just objects. But much worse than the grumblers of that time, you are not only consumed with the objects themselves and missing the point of what they represent, you have also made idol worship of them.

No - it's just that YOU in your arrogance have completely ignored the commands and warnings of Christ.

John 6:53
“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

Good luck with that . . .

 

[ScottA]

No - it's just that YOU in your arrogance have completely ignored the commands and warnings of Christ.

John 6:53
“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

Good luck with that . . .

What He meant for our freedom, you have made a law, fallen from the grace you first received. Such light is darkness, not life, but death.

 

[BreadOfLife]

What He meant for our freedom, you have made a law, fallen from the grace you first received. Such light is darkness, not life, but death.

Following God's commands IS freedom - from SIN.

I don't walk away like YOU and the former believers in John 6:66 who simply couldn't believe He wanted them to eat His flesh and drink His blood.
When Jesus commands me to do something I do it because He is GOD . . .

 

[ScottA]

Following God's commands IS freedom - from SIN.

I don't walk away like YOU and the former believers in John 6:66 who simply couldn't believe He wanted them to eat His flesh and drink His blood.
When Jesus commands me to do something I do it because He is GOD . . .

Tell us then...just how did you actually and literally eat Jesus' flesh and drink his actual blood as He commanded? (You keep harping on it, but have yet to answer.)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Tell us then...just how did you actually and literally eat Jesus' flesh and drink his actual blood as He commanded? (You keep harping on it, but have yet to answer.)

In the Eucharist, the bread and wine is transformed into His body and blood - while still under the appearance of bread and wine. This is how Jesus showed the Apostles how to consume His body and blood SACRAMENTALLY at the Last Supper.

He didn't hold out His arm for each of them to take a bite. He showed them that through the blessing and breaking of the bread, it would be transformed into His flesh and blood.

THIS is why He told the Apostles, "This IS my body" and "This IS my blood" - and not merely pious "symbols" of it.

THIS is why Jesus told the crowd in John 6:53, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the FLESH of the Son of Man and drink his BLOOD, you do not have life within you."

THIS is why Ignatius of Antioch, student of the Apostle John said of the heretics: They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).

THIS is why Augustine stated, "That bread which you see on the altar having been sanctified by the word of God IS the body of Christ, That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS the blood of Christ" (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

THIS is why EVERY SINGLE Early Church Father UNANIMOUSLY preached on the Real Presence of the Eucharist - without exception.
Was EVERYBODY wrong until John Calvin came along some 1500 years later and set everybody "straight" on the matter - including Luther? Is that what you're saying??

If that's the case - then ALL of the Early Church Fathers, ALL of the Christians who were martyred by the Romans - ALL practicing Christians for 1500 years - including some of the Reformers like Luther are in HELL for idolatry.

Is that what you're saying??