Schemes...

[PinSeeker]

We are in the midst of the tribulation period now. Jesus tells us that "(i)n the world (we) will have tribulation. But take heart; (He has) overcome the world" (John 16:33). Now, there will be great tribulation near the end of this time, and it may be happening now... "in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be..." (Matthew 24:21; Mark 13:19).

God never promises to remove us from tribulation, but He does promise ~ over and over again ~ to be with us and to deliver us through it, in passages like Psalm 23... "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me... You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies... Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever."

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Verily]

This means to interpret according to the normal use of language at the time the passage was written.

So for instance, in the first century, the Jews understood that they were the chosen nation from among all the other nations, and that the chosen and the nations signify the Jews and Gentiles.

Later Paul would use elect to signify the church including the gentiles, but that was many years later and in much different context. Proper interpretation holds to what the speaker meant when he spoke, according to the normal usage of the language of that day.

The sheep/goat judgment is one of those passages that doesn't work unless you hold to pre-trib rapture. Otherwise, you have to allegorize or otherwise change the simple statements made.

Some equate this judgment with the great white throne, however, the text says it happens when Jesus returns to the earth and takes His throne. Some make it into a parable telling us to help others, but again, that's not what it says.

Much love!

I cant say I understand all of that marks but I did ask so thank you for responding, I'll consider what you say.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You obey the papal dogma, you are surrendering to papal authority. That is a form of worship. The world may not be there yet, but is heading very quickly in that direction. If you haven't noticed that, you've been asleep.

How do I obey papal dogma and surrender to papal authority? Don't make accusations like that without even explaining what you're talking about.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Except that's not how they used the word. Just try to tell the Jews in Jesus' day that the elect people included the Gentiles, you won't get far with that!

Much love!

It doesn't matter what the Jews thought. They were wrong about a lot of things. Jesus knew that the Gentiles were included among the elect which is why He said this:

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The one fold is the church consisting of Jew and Gentile believers and the one shepherd is obviously Jesus.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, there isn't. However, what I stated remains true.

The rapture was not revealed until Paul, so you won't find it in the Gospels or the Old Testament.

Much love!

Where are you getting that idea from?

 

[PinSeeker]

The ethnic Jews thought they were the chosen nation from among all the other nations. In a lesser sense they were, but the greater sense is... much, much greater than that.

Paul, in talking about Israel ~ God's true Israel ~ said that "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." Now, this is Paul who says this ~ with a quote from Moses in Genesis 18 of God Himself to Abraham himself. What needs to be understood here is, who is God's Israel? And who makes up that true Israel... who are God's true Jews? Paul tells us in Romans 2:28-29... "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical... a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter... his praise is not from man but from God."

And Peter addresses all believers, Gentiles included, using God's words from Deuteronomy, saying, "To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion... according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ... He has caused us to be born again... He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God... since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable... you come to Him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood... you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light...” (1 Peter 1-2)

There are some here who... well, it's necessary to re-think who Israel really is.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[marks]

I cant say I understand all of that marks but I did ask so thank you for responding, I'll consider what you say.

Just to say . . . words can change meaning, so we want to know how they used the word at the time it was used. Feel free to ask for any further explanation you want to.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

So for instance, in the first century, the Jews understood that they were the chosen nation

They weren't chosen here:

Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

or here:

Matthew 23
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

or here:

John 8
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

or here:

Acts 13
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

or here:

Romans 9
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God...

or here:

1 Thessalonians 2
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the
uttermost.

So their "understanding" was indisputably inexcusably errant misunderstanding.

God is not a racist, nor can He be contorted into one.

 

[ewq1938]

The fact that Jesus divides the sheep and the goats according to their treatment of Jesus' brothers means that there is of necessity 3 groups, the sheep, the goats, and Jesus' brothers.

Except he said the least of his brethren which opens the door to a 4th group, the non-least of the brethren which are those not in need etc. That also would rotate depending on what's happening in one's life so the non-least can help the least but a year later the roles could be reversed. I believe scripture is clear that Christ's brothers are his sheep, so this is nothing more than sheep helping sheep/brothers helping brothers.

 

[Brakelite]

How do I obey papal dogma and surrender to papal authority? Don't make accusations like that without even explaining what you're talking about.

You are taking it to personally. Just saying, that to worship the beast, all you need do is accept papal doctrine and authority over and above the word of God. That is a form of worship.i think you as well as I could pinpoint any number of Catholic doctrine that replace scripture and replace Christ in the minds and hearts of the Catholic rank and file. And to replace Christ is antichrist.

 

[PinSeeker]

...to worship the beast, all you need do is accept papal doctrine and authority over and above the word of God. That is a form of worship.i think you as well as I could pinpoint any number of Catholic doctrine that replace scripture and replace Christ in the minds and hearts of the Catholic rank and file. And to replace Christ is antichrist.

That's an excellent point, Brakelite, but wouldn't you say all sorts of groups of people do that kind of thing with all sorts of different doctrines, things, and, well, what or who they view as authoritative, in all sorts of ways? Yes, I agree, generally speaking with you regarding Catholicism, but that's only one of many, many different iterations of "replacing Christ," or, in Paul's words in Romans 1, exchanging the truth for a lie and worshiping creation rather than the Creator. Right?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

So their "understanding" was indisputably inexcusably errant misunderstanding.

Go back to Deuteronomy, and Exodus, where it's perfectly clear that God did in fact choose them as a nation.

They weren't chosen here:

Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

or here:

Matthew 23
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

or here:

John 8
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

or here:

Acts 13
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

or here:

Romans 9
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God...

or here:

1 Thessalonians 2
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the
uttermost.

So their "understanding" was indisputably inexcusably errant misunderstanding.

God is not a racist, nor can He be contorted into one.

None of these passages negate those that tell us God has chosen Israel to be a nation before Him forever. Choosing this nation isn't equal to guaranteeing the salvation of each individual.

The nation remains chosen by God.

You've taken passages that speak against those people named, and applied them in general to the nation, in spite of God's promises. That's not valid interpretation.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

Marks: "The rapture was not revealed until Paul, so you won't find it in the Gospels or the Old Testament" Where are you getting that idea from?

He/She is referring to 1 Thessalonians 4. I'm quite sure. We can talk about why that's such a terrible understanding from what Paul says in that particular passage, but Marks's statement in and of itself is self-refuting. If it's acknowledged to only be found there and not in the Gospels or the Old Testament, then that is to say that the rest of Scripture fails to corroborate that understanding of 1 Thessalonians 4, and in effect refutes that understanding. God is His own arbiter, as I'm sure you will agree.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[PinSeeker]

Go back to Deuteronomy, and Exodus, where it's perfectly clear that God did in fact choose them as a nation.

He did, but generally speaking, what we find in the Old Testament is a "lesser" manifestation of the "greater." That's certainly not to say that anything in the Old Testament is "not as good" or "doesn't qualify anymore" or is somehow now "replaced." Rather, the real iteration of it is much, much larger than what was before; what was before was only indicative of a greater reality. As with the Law: Paul says in Galatians 3 that "the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith," and the writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews 7, "on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God." We can even apply this to Jesus Himself, Who is revealed in all sorts of ways in the Old Testament, in what we call "types" and "shadows." For example, Noah's ark is representative of Jesus (it is He Who carries us and delivers us through the storm), and the manna is representative of Jesus (it is He Who is our true Bread of life). So, in the same way, with regard to Israel, Jesus is the greater David, the true forever King of greater Isreal, God's Israel, which is comprised of all who are in Christ, all believers of any mere ethnicity... we are all one in Christ Jesus.

None of these passages negate those that tell us God has chosen Israel to be a nation before Him forever.

Right, but... see directly above.

You've taken passages that speak against those people named, and applied them in general to the nation, in spite of God's promises.

No, with all due respect, Marks, you're still seeing God's Israel as much smaller than it really is, and even God's promises for much less than what they really are. And you're not alone in doing so. <smile>

Grace and peace to you!

 

[covenantee]

Go back to Deuteronomy, and Exodus, where it's perfectly clear that God did in fact choose them as a nation.

None of these passages negate those that tell us God has chosen Israel to be a nation before Him forever. Choosing this nation isn't equal to guaranteeing the salvation of each individual.

The nation remains chosen by God.

You've taken passages that speak against those people named, and applied them in general to the nation, in spite of God's promises. That's not valid interpretation.

Much love!

A nation is comprised of its individuals. That is obvious from every Scripture that I cited.

Individuals are chosen when they respond to God and His Son in faithfulness and obedience.

Their nationality is irrelevant.

God is not a racist, nor can He be contorted into one.

 

[PinSeeker]

Individuals are chosen when they respond to God and His Son in faithfulness and obedience.

Well... actually... <smile> ...long, long before that... <smile> "Long before they were born, before they did anything good or bad..." You agree, I'm sure. <smile>

Their nationality is irrelevant.

Ahhh... well, I think you will agree with this, too... I wouldn't say 'irrelevant,' but certainly not exclusive. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, covenantee.

 

[marks]

No, with all due respect, Marks, you're still seeing God's Israel as much smaller than it really is, and even God's promises for much less than what they really are.

With all due respect, you do not acknowledge God's promises. Some I'm sure. Certainly not all.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Well... actually... <smile> ...long, long before that... <smile> "Long before they were born, before they did anything good or bad..." You agree, I'm sure. <smile>


Ahhh... well, I think you will agree with this, too... I wouldn't say 'irrelevant,' but certainly not exclusive. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, covenantee.

Romans 10
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Faithfulness and obedience to you, PinSeeker.

 

[PinSeeker]

With all due respect, you do not acknowledge God's promises. Some I'm sure. Certainly not all.

No, all, for sure; all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus. And that's the very point; you inadvertently make God's promises (and His love, and even He Himself) out to be far smaller than they really are. You don't mean to do that, certainly, but it is what it is... Another example: the true promised land is ...not really limited to, not just a small sliver of real estate on, the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea... but really the whole earth... <smile>

• "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" (Jesus, Matthew 5:5)
• "...(Jesus was) slain, and by (His) blood (we) ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and (God has) made (us) a kingdom and priests to our God, and (we) shall reign on the earth” (Revelation 5:10)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Romans 10
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Right, no difference, so yes, not germane to whether one is or is not elect of God. But irrelevant? Well, I guess we can agree on 'irrelevance' of ethnicity... in a certain sense.

Grace and peace to you.