How the idea of Immortal Soul got into the Church

[Hobie]

The Bible doesn’t teach that people have immortal souls but many believe it. So how did this teaching enter Christian thinking, where did this corruption originate and how did it spread into the churh. As God made man in his own image, but did not make him immortal or of the same substance that he possesses. Our Creator is composed of spirit and is eternal, they are not in anyway immortal of their own self. Humans were made out of the dust basically theground or organic substance that constitutes the earth. Adam only became a living being, but not an immortal soul, when God breathed life into him

The first lie, in the Garden of Eden, the devil wanted Eve to believe revolves around the concept of an immortal soul. Eve stated she was instructed not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or else she would die.

Satan countered that God was lying and that she would not perish. We see that this lie has spread even into Christians today. God's justification for casting Adam and Eve out of the Garden was, "lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever".

If all humans automatically have a soul that is immortal then barring them from the Tree of Life would not make a difference since they would already possess something that would keep them alive into the future. If, however, Adam and Eve did not possess an immortal soul that allowed them to live forever, then God's concern about them acquiring this ability is justified.

Here is one of the best explanation I have come across and every believer should carefully go through it and understand how this deception came into the church from what can only be called pagan Greek thought. 'Secular history reveals that the concept of the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief embraced by many pagan religions. But it's not a biblical teaching and is not found in either the Old or New Testaments....

"Despite widespread use of the phrase immortal soul, this terminology is found nowhere in the Bible. Where did the idea of an immortal soul originate?

The concept of the soul's supposed immortality was first taught in ancient Egypt and Babylon. "The belief that the soul continues in existence after the dissolution of the body is...speculation...nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture...The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended" (Jewish Encyclopedia, 1941, Vol. 6, "Immortality of the Soul," pp. 564, 566).
Secular history reveals that the concept of the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief embraced by many pagan religions. But it's not a biblical teaching and is not found in either the Old or New Testaments.

Plato (428-348 B.C.), the Greek philosopher and student of Socrates, taught that the body and the "immortal soul" separate at death. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia comments on ancient Israel's view of the soul: "We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness and is nowhere found in the Old Testament" (1960, Vol. 2, "Death," p. 812).

Early Christianity was influenced and corrupted by Greek philosophies as it spread through the Greek and Roman world. By A.D. 200 the doctrine of the immortality of the soul became a controversy among Christian believers.

The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology notes that Origen, an early and influential Catholic theologian, was influenced by Greek thinkers: "Speculation about the soul in the subapostolic church was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy. This is seen in Origen's acceptance of Plato's doctrine of the preexistence of the soul as pure mind (nous) originally, which, by reason of its fall from God, cooled down to soul (psyche) when it lost its participation in the divine fire by looking earthward" (1992, "Soul," p. 1037).

Secular history reveals that the concept of the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief embraced by many pagan religions. But it's not a biblical teaching and is not found in either the Old or New Testaments."

 

[Hobie]

Some say what about the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, well lets look.
Luke 16:19-31
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

First off, we have to determine IF this is a parable; lets examine it:

When Jesus told the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man were there many people gathered?
Luke 15:1
Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

So yes, there was a group/multitude present and we see..
Matthew 13:34
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Jesus spoke only in parables to the multitudes, only when with His disciples did He unveil the meaning..
Mark 4:34
But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

It was hard enough for them to understand what He was saying but if you look the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man was the last parable out of 5 he told that day. Starting in Luke 16:1 Jesus tells the following parables..
The parable of the Lost Sheep
The parable of the Lost Coin
The parable of the Lost Son
The parable of the Shrewd Manager
and the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

If you look, the parable of the Shrewd Manager begins exactly like the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man...
Luke 16:1
And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

Luke 16:19
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Many people read their Bible and its clear that when we die our physical body returns to dust, but then bring in the false idea that has spread and they also say that our 'soul' goes to heaven without our body. They go on to say that at the resurrection, our souls are 'reunited' with our physical bodies and they become glorified.

Well let's look at the facts given. The 'rich man' in the parable was buried as we see in verse 22, yet the very next verse says he had EYES to look up with. In verse 24 its says the buried 'rich man' had a TONGUE. The parable also says Lazarus has a FINGER and Abraham has a BOSOM. Do these physical attributes apply to a soul? Not according to Jesus. Jesus said, if one looks, that a spirit does not have flesh and bones..
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; FOR A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES, as ye see me have.
I think we should believe what Christ declares rather than false ideas spread from pagan origin.

Christ says the eternal home of the saved is in heaven, not Abrahams bosom:
John 14:1-3
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that WHERE I AM, there ye may be also.

Is Jesus in 'Abrahams bosom', of course not. Now in the parable it says a great gulf exists between Lazarus and the Rich Man. This gulf is so vast in expanse that it is impossible for those on one side to pass through to the other side. In spite of this, the Rich Man is able to recognize both Abraham and Lazarus as well as hold an intelligent conversation. Does that make sense, of course not. This story is a parable and thus not to be taken literally. This parable actually illustrates how one should live, not how we die.

Another argument some try to give is that the 'glorified body' that we receive is a spiritual body and not one of flesh and bone. Look at what Christ declares..
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

This is Christ talking to the apostles when they first see Him after He rose from the grave. Does Christ say here that He is in a spiritual body or a flesh one, and look at the example of Jesus and see how He ascended..

And then we have this..
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

This verifies that Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven, and then you have this..
Acts 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Acts 1:22
Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Here it is told of Jesus ascending to heaven. No where does it indicate that only Jesus spirit went to heaven and His body stayed behind on the contrary, the disciples watched Him ascend with their own eyes. Christ went up in bodily form, so shall we in our completeness at the resurrection.

 

[Bob]

Thank you for you question. Perhaps I am missing your point, but:

Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

Matthew 19:16
Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

Matthew 19:29
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Mark 10:17
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”


Etc.

Peace

 

[Hobie]

Thank you for you question. Perhaps I am missing your point, but:

Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

Matthew 19:16
Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

Matthew 19:29
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Mark 10:17
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”


Etc.

Peace

So do we have "immortality/eternal life" of self? No, we do not, we must understand that.

 

[Bob]

Thank you for responding.

Please explain why we do not have eternal life of self.

Remember, the Bible is full of metaphor, not just the bosom of deceased Abraham, but the hand of God, the heart of God. (“Hide me under the shadow of thy wings.”) How one communicates with a disembodied spirit, as a spirit, is beyond the mental grasp of the average person. Thus, the tendency to resort to anthromorphisms.

Peace.

 

[Hobie]

Thank you for responding.

Please explain why we do not have eternal life of self.

Remember, the Bible is full of metaphor, not just the bosom of deceased Abraham, but the hand of God, the heart of God. (“Hide me under the shadow of thy wings.”) How one communicates with a disembodied spirit, as a spirit, is beyond the mental grasp of the average person. Thus, the tendency to resort to anthromorphisms.

Peace.

Then why would we need Christ our Redeemer if we have it of our own, no my brother that is the lie of the devil from the very beginning. These are teachings of the father of lies which have been spread by a apostate church, which come from the original lie in the Garden of Eden that the devil told, that "Ye shall not surely die" We all must decide for ourselves what the truth is, or is not.

 

[Hobie]

Here is truth and a great explanation and well put together understanding of this topic:
Premise

Traditionally most people believe that there is a ghost-like “spirit” inside of our bodies, and when we die, this spirit floats away somewhere, preferably heaven.

I will show that the Bible actually does not support this theory. In fact, according to the Bible there is no spirit inside of us at all. We exist only as mortal bodies, made from dust having been given the breath of life. And it is this “breath of life” that is confused with, or interpreted as, a “spirit”.


What Happens When We Die

Scripture says it plainly.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don’t think. They don’t praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. Their plans perish and they cease to exist. Ecclesiastes 3 even tells us that man has no advantage over the beasts. All go to one place, which is dust.


Death Compared to Sleep

Psalms 13:3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

1 Kings 2:10
Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

When Lazarus died, Jesus said he was sleeping.

John 11:11-14
After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” 12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead".

Why would Jesus compare Lazarus’ death to “sleep” if Lazarus’ spirit has ascended into heaven? And why was there no mention of his spirit leaving his body?

Matthew 9:24
He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Daniel was told he would “rest” until the resurrection.

Daniel 12:13
As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

If Daniel’s spirit was to go to heaven after death, then why was he told that he would rest? Why did the angel not say instead, I’ll see you in heaven soon, or something to that effect? It’s because Daniel wasn’t going to heaven. He was going to the dust of the earth. Daniel is now dead. He is not in heaven. He’s dead in the dust of the earth and on the day of the resurrection, he will rise, along with the rest of us.


What Happens When we are Resurrected

The resurrection, as Paul describes it, actually also proves that we have no spirit in us that goes to heaven when we die.
Imagine if we did have a spirit. We would fly up to heaven and we would do whatever we do in heaven. Praise the Lord, play Frisbee, eat BBQ chicken. No matter how you envision an existence in heaven, it would require at the very least that we have a consciousness, a thought process and a free will to continue to make decisions. All of this would contradict the old testament verses above.

It would also contradict the new testament book of 1 Corinthians, because according to Paul this life in a spiritual body, which we imagine in heaven, does not come to us until the very last day, when we are resurrected.

1 Corinthians 15:42
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46
The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

Paul clearly states that we are created with a natural body, not a spiritual body. We will be transformed into a spiritual body upon the resurrection. “The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual”. In other words, when God created us, we were not given spiritual bodies, only natural bodies, but we would receive spiritual bodies later, upon the resurrection.

Our bodies are sewn natural, raised spiritual. This is the point of the resurrection, to make us spiritual so that we can be immortal. So if you believe that we already have immortal spirits that leave our bodies when we die, you have a conundrum.

 

[Bob]

Thank you for your reply.

You are in good company with Dawkins and Woody Allen, who believe that when they die, whatever it is that animates our bodies, thinks, and converses with others, vanishes like smoke.

Your Old Testament quotes all point to our bodies returning to the earth. But what of David’s famous psalm that ends, “Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever”? What does he think will be with God “forever”?

And Jesus tells His followers he is going to prepare places in His Father’s house for them. What did He mean?

Lastly, consider a hymn like Amazing Grace. If all of the hymn books, sheet music, and recordings of this hymn were destroyed, would Amazing Grace be gone, too? Or does it have an existence independent of the media on which it is written?

You seem to convinced that your spirit cannot be separated from, or exist apart from, your physical body. I believe otherwise.

Peace.

 

[Hobie]

Thank you for your reply.

You are in good company with Dawkins and Woody Allen, who believe that when they die, whatever it is that animates our bodies, thinks, and converses with others, vanishes like smoke.

Your Old Testament quotes all point to our bodies returning to the earth. But what of David’s famous psalm that ends, “Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever”? What does he think will be with God “forever”?

And Jesus tells His followers he is going to prepare places in His Father’s house for them. What did He mean?

Lastly, consider a hymn like Amazing Grace. If all of the hymn books, sheet music, and recordings of this hymn were destroyed, would Amazing Grace be gone, too? Or does it have an existence independent of the media on which it is written?

You seem to convinced that your spirit cannot be separated from, or exist apart from, your physical body. I believe otherwise.

Peace.

No, the Bible gives us what is truth on the matter, and only God has immortality, we wait for the gift of eternal life at the resurrection. The Bible teaches that the dead are dead, that the dead cannot communicate with the living, the soul that sins dies, and that immortality is a gift from God, who alone has immortality gives the gift to the righteous at His second coming. But of their own self they do not have it..

"...the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4

"...the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality," 1 Timothy 6:15-16

"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

 

[BarneyFife]

No, the Bible gives us what is truth on the matter, and only God has immortality, we wait for the gift of eternal life at the resurrection. The Bible teaches that the dead are dead, that the dead cannot communicate with the living, the soul that sins dies, and that immortality is a gift from God, who alone has immortality gives the gift to the righteous at His second coming. But of their own self they do not have it..

"...the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4

"...the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality," 1 Timothy 6:15-16

"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

Eternal life and immortality are not the same thing. Those who trust in the suffering, death, resurrection, and high-priestly ministry of Christ have eternal life right now. For these, the first death is but an unconscious and inanimate slumber that pauses eternal life.

We are seated with Him in heavenly places insofar as we truly desire. Knowing God in Christ is verily eternal life. But some of us "dwell too near the lowlands of the earth." And, truth be told, all of us do this at times.

:)

 

[Taken]

The Bible doesn’t teach that people have immortal souls but many believe it.

Only the Physical Body is Mortal.

Mortal means the “thing” (BODY) and the things LIFE (BLOOD)…
Must, Shall, Will…Physically Die
God Requires that Life to Die.

Gen 9;
[5] And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

Souls are Not a Physical “thing”, a living Mortal Physical man Can SEE.

Souls HAVE NO “broad” sweeping requirement, to physically Die.

* All souls belong to God.
He will Decide which souls Shall, Will be Saved and Which souls Shall, Will be Destroyed.

* Destroyed souls ARE eternally separated from God

Any mans BODY…Any SOUL…separated FROM God is Spiritual Death…whether or not the Body / Soul is Living.

* Saved souls are NOT carte blanch subject to destruction. Saved souls, will continue to live Forever.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Davy]

Brethren in Christ Jesus, what God's Word teaches about the longevity of one's soul DEPENDS upon the condition it is in, either in Christ as a believer on Him, or as a non-believer that will be subject to the "second death" of Revelation 20.

Our soul with spirit is semi-immortal, because those of us in Christ have not yet put on the glory of the world to come which will give us in Christ immortality, like Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15. That will only happen with the coming time of the resurrection when Jesus returns in our near future.

But for the unsaved, their spirit/souls will remain semi-immortal, meaning still subject to the "second death" which is the casting into the future "lake of fire" after Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.

 

[BarneyFife]

"Semi-immortal"

I'd like to be able to say "Now I've heard everything," but I fear I haven't.

Every wind of doctrine is truly blowing.

:)

Here is truth and a great explanation and well put together understanding of this topic:
Premise

Traditionally most people believe that there is a ghost-like “spirit” inside of our bodies, and when we die, this spirit floats away somewhere, preferably heaven.

I will show that the Bible actually does not support this theory. In fact, according to the Bible there is no spirit inside of us at all. We exist only as mortal bodies, made from dust having been given the breath of life. And it is this “breath of life” that is confused with, or interpreted as, a “spirit”.


What Happens When We Die

Scripture says it plainly.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don’t think. They don’t praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. Their plans perish and they cease to exist. Ecclesiastes 3 even tells us that man has no advantage over the beasts. All go to one place, which is dust.


Death Compared to Sleep

Psalms 13:3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

1 Kings 2:10
Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

When Lazarus died, Jesus said he was sleeping.

John 11:11-14
After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” 12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead".

Why would Jesus compare Lazarus’ death to “sleep” if Lazarus’ spirit has ascended into heaven? And why was there no mention of his spirit leaving his body?

Matthew 9:24
He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Daniel was told he would “rest” until the resurrection.

Daniel 12:13
As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

If Daniel’s spirit was to go to heaven after death, then why was he told that he would rest? Why did the angel not say instead, I’ll see you in heaven soon, or something to that effect? It’s because Daniel wasn’t going to heaven. He was going to the dust of the earth. Daniel is now dead. He is not in heaven. He’s dead in the dust of the earth and on the day of the resurrection, he will rise, along with the rest of us.


What Happens When we are Resurrected

The resurrection, as Paul describes it, actually also proves that we have no spirit in us that goes to heaven when we die.
Imagine if we did have a spirit. We would fly up to heaven and we would do whatever we do in heaven. Praise the Lord, play Frisbee, eat BBQ chicken. No matter how you envision an existence in heaven, it would require at the very least that we have a consciousness, a thought process and a free will to continue to make decisions. All of this would contradict the old testament verses above.

It would also contradict the new testament book of 1 Corinthians, because according to Paul this life in a spiritual body, which we imagine in heaven, does not come to us until the very last day, when we are resurrected.

1 Corinthians 15:42
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46
The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

Paul clearly states that we are created with a natural body, not a spiritual body. We will be transformed into a spiritual body upon the resurrection. “The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual”. In other words, when God created us, we were not given spiritual bodies, only natural bodies, but we would receive spiritual bodies later, upon the resurrection.

Our bodies are sewn natural, raised spiritual. This is the point of the resurrection, to make us spiritual so that we can be immortal. So if you believe that we already have immortal spirits that leave our bodies when we die, you have a conundrum.

Too much Bible

People aren't going to like that.

:)

 

[PGS11]

The bible tells us immortality was lost in the fall of humanity because of Satan and the fallen angels.The world is in a fallen state and we are all in a fallen state unable to ascend to heaven..It why Jesus came to bring eternal life back to humanity Its why hes the Savior.What did you think he was saving you from - the bible is pretty clear on this.Jesus came to save humanity from the fall of humanity if he didn't no one would have eternal life.Its what this faith is all about how do you miss that.

Its what this war is about the fallen angels do not want one human soul to enter into heaven it a war for souls and they will do anything they have to do to keep you from having eternal life.

Its why they are called the enemies of salvation know who your enemy is.

 

[Moryd]

I used to think the idea of the immortal soul was purely biblical, but the more I looked into it, the more I realized how much Greek philosophy, especially Plato, influenced early Christian thought. The Bible talks a lot about resurrection, but it’s not super clear on whether the soul exists forever on its own. From what I’ve read, early Christians were surrounded by Hellenistic ideas, and over time, guys like Augustine helped shape what became the standard belief in the Church. It’s interesting how much outside philosophy played a role in shaping doctrines we take for granted today.

 

[chandlere880]

I believe that the holy scriptures teach exactly as everyone here has expressed,

that the soul is not eternal without God providing the life for the soul to remain alive

The Idea and Teaching of humans having a Spirit - is directly connected to The Accountability of The Soul, Mind, Body and Individual Human - Which is Accountable to God. Animals are not accountable to God in the same way that humans are.

 

[Hobie]

Eternal life and immortality are not the same thing. Those who trust in the suffering, death, resurrection, and high-priestly ministry of Christ have eternal life right now. For these, the first death is but an unconscious and inanimate slumber that pauses eternal life.

We are seated with Him in heavenly places insofar as we truly desire. Knowing God in Christ is verily eternal life. But some of us "dwell too near the lowlands of the earth." And, truth be told, all of us do this at times.

:)

Thats why its by 'faith', and I hold on that with all my heart and much prayer as it gets hard at times..

 

[Davy]

The bible tells us immortality was lost in the fall of humanity because of Satan and the fallen angels.The world is in a fallen state and we are all in a fallen state unable to ascend to heaven..It why Jesus came to bring eternal life back to humanity Its why hes the Savior.What did you think he was saving you from - the bible is pretty clear on this.Jesus came to save humanity from the fall of humanity if he didn't no one would have eternal life.Its what this faith is all about how do you miss that.

Its what this war is about the fallen angels do not want one human soul to enter into heaven it a war for souls and they will do anything they have to do to keep you from having eternal life.

Its why they are called the enemies of salvation know who your enemy is.

And that is true, as the sin of Adam and Eve has been assigned to all men.

But if you read on in God's written Word, there's this thing called a 'resurrection' of the dead that will happen, for both the Just and unjust (John 5:28-29).

And God did place this present 2nd world earth age in "bondage of corruption", as the creation seeks a release from that corruption with the manifesting of the sons of God (i.e., in the world to come.) (See Romans 8:18-25).

Then, because there will be a "resurrection of damnation" for the wicked also, raised from the dead, that means one's soul does not... die... at flesh death.

 

[Grailhunter]

I used to think the idea of the immortal soul was purely biblical, but the more I looked into it, the more I realized how much Greek philosophy, especially Plato, influenced early Christian thought. The Bible talks a lot about resurrection, but it’s not super clear on whether the soul exists forever on its own. From what I’ve read, early Christians were surrounded by Hellenistic ideas, and over time, guys like Augustine helped shape what became the standard belief in the Church. It’s interesting how much outside philosophy played a role in shaping doctrines we take for granted today.

I am a theologian educated in 5 countries and on this topic I can say that there is no agreement. Don’t we wish things were explained with more detail, what are Souls…. spirits…. Spiritual bodies …..eternal….etc

“bodies” resurrected and “something” of us can go to heaven forever. Heaven is important but not well explained.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Some say what about the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, well lets look.
Luke 16:19-31
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

First off, we have to determine IF this is a parable; lets examine it:

When Jesus told the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man were there many people gathered?
Luke 15:1
Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

So yes, there was a group/multitude present and we see..
Matthew 13:34
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Jesus spoke only in parables to the multitudes, only when with His disciples did He unveil the meaning..
Mark 4:34
But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

It was hard enough for them to understand what He was saying but if you look the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man was the last parable out of 5 he told that day. Starting in Luke 16:1 Jesus tells the following parables..
The parable of the Lost Sheep
The parable of the Lost Coin
The parable of the Lost Son
The parable of the Shrewd Manager
and the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

If you look, the parable of the Shrewd Manager begins exactly like the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man...
Luke 16:1
And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

Luke 16:19
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Many people read their Bible and its clear that when we die our physical body returns to dust, but then bring in the false idea that has spread and they also say that our 'soul' goes to heaven without our body. They go on to say that at the resurrection, our souls are 'reunited' with our physical bodies and they become glorified.

Well let's look at the facts given. The 'rich man' in the parable was buried as we see in verse 22, yet the very next verse says he had EYES to look up with. In verse 24 its says the buried 'rich man' had a TONGUE. The parable also says Lazarus has a FINGER and Abraham has a BOSOM. Do these physical attributes apply to a soul? Not according to Jesus. Jesus said, if one looks, that a spirit does not have flesh and bones..
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; FOR A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES, as ye see me have.
I think we should believe what Christ declares rather than false ideas spread from pagan origin.

Christ says the eternal home of the saved is in heaven, not Abrahams bosom:
John 14:1-3
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that WHERE I AM, there ye may be also.

Is Jesus in 'Abrahams bosom', of course not. Now in the parable it says a great gulf exists between Lazarus and the Rich Man. This gulf is so vast in expanse that it is impossible for those on one side to pass through to the other side. In spite of this, the Rich Man is able to recognize both Abraham and Lazarus as well as hold an intelligent conversation. Does that make sense, of course not. This story is a parable and thus not to be taken literally. This parable actually illustrates how one should live, not how we die.

Another argument some try to give is that the 'glorified body' that we receive is a spiritual body and not one of flesh and bone. Look at what Christ declares..
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

This is Christ talking to the apostles when they first see Him after He rose from the grave. Does Christ say here that He is in a spiritual body or a flesh one, and look at the example of Jesus and see how He ascended..

And then we have this..
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

This verifies that Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven, and then you have this..
Acts 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Acts 1:22
Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Here it is told of Jesus ascending to heaven. No where does it indicate that only Jesus spirit went to heaven and His body stayed behind on the contrary, the disciples watched Him ascend with their own eyes. Christ went up in bodily form, so shall we in our completeness at the resurrection.

Lazarus and the Rich man is not a parable.