Jesus already came, but you did not see him - explained Daniel 7

[Douggg]

Ok, so there’s nobody on the entire planet that believes we are not in the kingdom in a spiritual way?

Why then would some people try to interpret verses such as Luke 17:21, which says the kingdom of God is within you, as the kingdom of God is in the midst of you? And why would people argue that we can only enter the kingdom after mortal is changed into immortal at the second coming?

Try doing a search for if we have entered the kingdom or not and you will see there are people who deny the kingdom is in believers.

Hi grafted branch,

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Because Christ is in us, spiritually, as our Lord, the kingdom of God is within us, spiritually.

But outwardly, we are not in the kingdom of God yet, that Jesus will bring to earth when He returns at His Second Coming.

Thus, we pray in the Lord's prayer that the Father's kingdom come. His "Will" be done on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[grafted branch]

Because Christ is in us, spiritually, as our Lord, the kingdom of God is within us, spiritually.

I agree, Christ in us can be viewed as the kingdom of God in us.

Here’s a problem though, in Matthew 13:41-42 the angels gather, out of the kingdom, those who offend and do iniquity, and cast them into the furnace. John 3:5 says Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I can understand if Christ came in 70AD and had the angels gather out those who offend at that time because it would correspond to Matthew 21:43 where the kingdom was taken from you (chief priests and Pharisees) and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

But if nobody has been able to enter the kingdom without being born again since Jesus spoke the words in John 3:5 then there currently shouldn’t be anyone who offends in the kingdom, right? And if the angels come at some future time they won’t be able to fulfill Matthew 31:41-42 since there are no offenders in the kingdom.

Thus, we pray in the Lord's prayer that the Father's kingdom come. His "Will" be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Well, that is debatable whether we should at this time pray for thy kingdom to come. If a person believes the kingdom has already come I don’t think they are going to be praying for that.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Clown,

Nice post. I am an actively confirming believer that the Lord Jesus has returned. That only believers at that time seen him come back, and were rescued from the destruction that was coming up at the ending of the age. I'm someone who just believes that fulfillment has been made. There are going to always be active people who disagree with that, but that is okay with me. No one has the right to change my beliefs, all because they may see differently than what the scriptures seem to articulate which was those who saw Jesus were going to be rescued and saved from wrath when it had come upon the nation of Israel for their disobedience.

 

[jeffweeder]

Philippians 3
20 But [we are different, because] our citizenship is in heaven. And from there we eagerly await [the coming of] the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
21 who, by exerting that power which enables Him even to subject everything to Himself, will [not only] transform [but completely refashion] our earthly bodies so that they will be like His glorious resurrected body.


Has not happened yet as we still await his coming.


1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are [even here and] now children of God, and it is not yet made clear what we will be [after His coming]. We know that when He comes and is revealed, we will [as His children] be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is [in all His glory].


Has not happened yet as he hasn't appeared in all his glory.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory and majesty of His Father with His angels, and then He will repay each one in accordance with what he has done.

 

[Timtofly]

In Matthew 13:24-30 is the parable of the weeds, which is speaking of the kingdom of heaven. In Matthew 13:36-43 Jesus explains the parable.

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

You said “People who are born again of the second birth do not stay on the earth. They move on from the earth into that heavenly kingdom”. Why are there people which do iniquity in the kingdom in the first place, prior to the angels gathering them out?

Matthew 13 concerning the final harvest is post the Second Coming.

You are mixing up the kingdoms using Matthew 13.

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."

This is not a resurrection nor a rapture. This is Jesus on the earth, after the Second Coming. Jesus is on the earth sowing the seed. The harvest is made up of living humans still on the earth after the Second Coming, thus part of an earthly kingdom.

My point was that until the Second Coming, humans are filling the heavenly kingdom of God. After the Second Coming, Jesus is gathering His earthly kingdom.

Jesus said His Kingdom was the world. The world is the birth place of all the wicked. Jesus is cleaning house at the Second Coming. Matthew 3:11-12 is only partially fulfilled.

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

The Messiah baptized with the Holy Spirit. The Prince will baptize with fire. Along with the Second Coming, comes the clean up. As long as there are wicked on the earth, the Second Coming has not happened.

 

[ewq1938]

Ok, so there’s nobody on the entire planet that believes we are not in the kingdom in a spiritual way?

Not Premills. We understand there is a spiritual kingdom in believers and a literal kingdom coming.

 

[grafted branch]

Matthew 13 concerning the final harvest is post the Second Coming.

You are mixing up the kingdoms using Matthew 13.

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."

In post #13 I asked you if none of the verses that refer to the kingdom of heaven/kingdom of God are referring to the millennial kingdom, you answered, in post #15 that was correct. I guess we just found an exception.

This is not a resurrection nor a rapture. This is Jesus on the earth, after the Second Coming. Jesus is on the earth sowing the seed. The harvest is made up of living humans still on the earth after the Second Coming, thus part of an earthly kingdom.

Since the Matthew 13 parable of the weeds is referring to the millennial kingdom, how does the devil sow the tares when he is bound in the bottomless pit?

 

[Davidpt]

In post #13 I asked you if none of the verses that refer to the kingdom of heaven/kingdom of God are referring to the millennial kingdom, you answered, in post #15 that was correct. I guess we just found an exception.


Since the Matthew 13 parable of the weeds is referring to the millennial kingdom, how does the devil sow the tares when he is bound in the bottomless pit?

I don't interpret any of that like @Timtofly does, but that is beside the point since you make an interesting point here, regardless. But not how your point might apply to the millennium post the 2nd coming, but how it would apply to the millennium before the 2nd coming. One view in regards to that is Amil. Amil has the millennium meaning the past 2000 years, and that they have both satan and the beast bound in the pit during this same past 2000 years. How then is the devil sowing the tares when he is bound in the bottomless pit for the past 2000 years, per this Amil view?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

The prophecy (Matthew 24, Mark 13) begins with the destruction of temple:
Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.

Jesus tells, that many false messiahs will come in this age (Simon Magus, Theudas and more...).
For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.

Next there will be many conflicts: Uprising of brothers Jacob and Simon, Jewish-Roman war, Samaritan conflicts and many smaller revolts.
You will hear of wars and rumors of wars.

Jesus's followers and apostles (John, Peter, James...) were persecuted.
Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death.

Destruction of Judea by Vespasian and his legion.
So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation.

Christians under the leadership of Simon, Jesus's brother left Jerusalem to area around Pella (Decapolis), but this Simon was not the same (Simon, church leader) that was later crucified.
Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Many curious astronomical signs were documented just before the destruction of Jerusalem by Josephus and Tacitus, including heavenly army with Jesus covered in clouds.
Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

Jesus came for his only believers .
And they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Matthew 16:28 (Mark 9:1) tells:
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.


Daniel 7 supports this:
The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth.
First Beast with human heart was Babylon. Second Beast was Achaemenid empire. Third Beast was divided empire of Alexander with 4 heads (Seleucids, Ptolemy, Macedon and kingdom in Anatolia). The last Beast was Rome.

The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings =
and then came the emperor Vespasian and subdued 3 emperors before him.

There before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them - this would mean his son, emperor Titus who destroyed Jerusalem in that war.

As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them - that was Jewish-Roman war (year 66-73).

But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever.
Vespasian and Titus are mysteriously dying 2 years apart each other. Then mount Vesuvius explodes in year 79: A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him.

Remember Nebuchadnezzar prophecy in Daniel 2?
Gold empire was Babylon, Silver empire was Achaemenid empire, Bronze empire was Alexander's empire and Iron empire was Rome. God's kingdom will be like rock that destroys these other kingdoms and will stand forever.

After all, God's kingdom is not just in the future, but it is already.
But about the resurrection of the dead - have you not read what God said to you, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living. (Matthew 22:31-32).

- Clown

Jesus hasn’t come back yet.

Your assertion is absurd.

 

[covenantee]

Ok. The blind can keep leading the blind in that ditch of yours.

What to believe?

1. Timtofly's private hallucinations

2. The prophetic wisdom, discernment, and insight of the Reformers, who responded to God's calling and liberated His True Church from spiritual darkness and oppression.

Who needs a hint?

 

[Timtofly]

In post #13 I asked you if none of the verses that refer to the kingdom of heaven/kingdom of God are referring to the millennial kingdom, you answered, in post #15 that was correct. I guess we just found an exception.


Since the Matthew 13 parable of the weeds is referring to the millennial kingdom, how does the devil sow the tares when he is bound in the bottomless pit?

That is why at the Second Coming Jesus is on the earth.

Matthew 13 is not about the Millennial Kingdom.

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:"

Jesus never said the Kingdom of heaven was on the earth. What happens on the earth is like the kingdom of heaven.

The final harvest is the last half of the 70th week. The period between the Second Coming, and the Millennial Kingdom. Matthew 13 is when the Prince to come has arrived and is sowing the wheat while He and the angels are on the earth.

The tares are removed before the start of the thousand years Satan is bound. There are no tares during the Millennium.

Jesus explained:

"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

This is not the end of the Millennium. This is the end of sin and death, so the Day of the Lord can begin without sin and death.

The Second Coming is when the Day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night, not after the Day of the Lord is finished.

 

[Timtofly]

What to believe?

1. Timtofly's private hallucinations

2. The prophetic wisdom, discernment, and insight of the Reformers, who responded to God's calling and liberated His True Church from spiritual darkness and oppression.

Who needs a hint?

I posted Scripture.

Seems you prefer human knowledge over God's Word.

 

[MatthewG]

That is why at the Second Coming Jesus is on the earth.

Matthew 13 is not about the Millennial Kingdom.

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:"

Jesus never said the Kingdom of heaven was on the earth. What happens on the earth is like the kingdom of heaven.

The final harvest is the last half of the 70th week. The period between the Second Coming, and the Millennial Kingdom. Matthew 13 is when the Prince to come has arrived and is sowing the wheat while He and the angels are on the earth.

The tares are removed before the start of the thousand years Satan is bound. There are no tares during the Millennium.

Jesus explained:

"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

This is not the end of the Millennium. This is the end of sin and death, so the Day of the Lord can begin without sin and death.

The Second Coming is when the Day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night, not after the Day of the Lord is finished.

Hello Timtofly,

My observation of wheat and tares would be between faithful people in that time period, and the obstinate people who became the synagogue of Satan… worshiping the Law and replacing God for that Law. Indeed becoming “Ha’Satan.”

 

[covenantee]

I posted Scripture.

Seems you prefer human knowledge over God's Word.

Obviously you prefer your private hallucinations over God's Supernatural Accomplishments.

 

[grafted branch]

I don't interpret any of that like @Timtofly does, but that is beside the point since you make an interesting point here, regardless. But not how your point might apply to the millennium post the 2nd coming, but how it would apply to the millennium before the 2nd coming. One view in regards to that is Amil. Amil has the millennium meaning the past 2000 years, and that they have both satan and the beast bound in the pit during this same past 2000 years. How then is the devil sowing the tares when he is bound in the bottomless pit for the past 2000 years, per this Amil view?

I think most Amils have the kingdom of God/heaven being the church with the tares being unsaved people in the church.

Satan sowing the tares during the millennium is one problem for Amil but there is also the problem of John 3:5 where only born again people can enter the kingdom. If you hold NOSAS view then that might work but I think most Amils are OSAS so I guess that would be an issue for them to work out somehow.

I personally hold a preterist view so I see the tares as those who were holding onto the old covenant and not believing in Christ. The kingdom was taken from the chief priest and Pharisees and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof in Matthew 21:43. I think that all took place in the first century and currently no unsaved person can enter the kingdom, which would make it impossible for the angels to come at some future time and fulfill Matthew 31:41-42 since there are currently no offenders in the kingdom.

 

[grafted branch]

@Timtofly

Here is what you said in post #25 …

Matthew 13 concerning the final harvest is post the Second Coming.

This is Jesus on the earth, after the Second Coming.

Now you’re saying this …

Matthew 13 is not about the Millennial Kingdom.

Which kingdom is the parable of the weeds referring to? I thought you had the millennial kingdom taking place after the second coming. Do you have another kingdom taking place in between the second coming and the millennium?

 

[Timtofly]

Hello Timtofly,

My observation of wheat and tares would be between faithful people in that time period, and the obstinate people who became the synagogue of Satan… worshiping the Law and replacing God for that Law. Indeed becoming “Ha’Satan.”

The wheat is from Jesus being personally on the earth. The tares are people personally deceived by Satan.

Do you deny the 3.5 year ministry of Jesus on the earth between His baptism and ascension into heaven? Or was that just theological imagination of some humans in the first century?

Now tell me how you heard about 70AD, was that from Scripture or an eyewitness account by some human?

Now explain to me that if all the tares were burned up in 70AD by the angels tossing them into the LOF, how are there still humans on the earth today, after all were killed per Matthew 13? If all the wheat was placed into heaven, not even the wheat would be on the earth. This chapter is about one group of humans who were directly chosen by Jesus, and the rest of humanity deceived by Satan. Neither group had a choice. And there was not a third group called "those left on the earth".

Jesus even said this is about the end of the world, not some event that would happen 2,000 at the minimum, years prior to the end of the world.

This point Jesus was making can only happen if Jesus is present on the earth. Since it did not happen at the Cross, nor within the 40 days up until Jesus ascended, and there are still humans existing in the billions on the earth, this event cannot happen until after the Second Coming, when Jesus arrives with all His angels.

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity."

All things means exactly that: all things. Do you think all things have been removed that offend God? Do you think all those who do iniquity have been removed? Do you think the earth currently is a righteous kingdom, where disobedience to God is instant death and removal from society?

Seems to me you claim all has been finished by God, and this is as good as it gets for all eternity.

 

[Timtofly]

Obviously you prefer your private hallucinations over God's Supernatural Accomplishments.

So the Scripture in my post is just hallucinations to you? How are your private posts about "God's Supernatural Accomplishments", if you only see God’s Word as private hallucinations?

You don't even have the decency to point out where God's Word has offended you.

 

[covenantee]

So the Scripture in my post is just hallucinations to you? How are your private posts about "God's Supernatural Accomplishments", if you only see God’s Word as private hallucinations?

You don't even have the decency to point out where God's Word has offended you.

Your private hallucinations aren't mine.

So find someone else to share them with.

 

[Timtofly]

there are currently no offenders in the kingdom.

Since that kingdom is the entire creation, excluding the LOF, how is that possible that no offenders exist in creation?

Not to mention even you say the kingdom was given to the church, which is not really what Jesus even said.

The kingdom of heaven or God is still of heaven and not the earth. That it was given to the church was declaring the body of believers was given the responsibility to gather the lost into the kingdom of heaven, instead of ethnic Israel under the Law / OT Covenant.

The church is not the kingdom of heaven. The church is God's representative on earth and we are ambassadors of the heavenly kingdom.

Since this is not a physical kingdom but a spiritual one, a church building is not like a national sovereign land claim owned by God.

The earth will only be claimed as Jesus' kingdom at the 7th Trumpet. There is still that difference between the heavenly kingdom of God, and Jesus as King over the earth during the Millennium. The church is still waiting in heaven and not on the earth during the Millennium. That is still a separation of the heavenly Kingdom and the earthly kingdom.

I agree that there are no offenders in heaven, but congregations on earth are a totally different story. There are redeemed people still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, who crucify the flesh daily. There are still pretenders or people so deceived they cannot even understand the difference.

Satan does not personally come and talk to every single person on earth, because it is not necessary. When Jesus comes at the Second Coming, all spiritual blindness will be removed and for a minute no deception will be in play. That is when Satan will campaign in person and will have to deceive the entire world. The first act will be to revive a one world government that will provide for the needs of humanity, as all the works on earth were just burned up at the Second Coming.

When people attempt to put a spiritual intepretation on Matthew 13, they apply this explanation of Jesus as very limited and even to a small part of the first century. Partial preterist extend the point to the church over the last 1900 years, thus we have amil. But Jesus is not talking about the church at all. Jesus is talking about His Kingdom that will be declared at the 7th Trumpet.

This is the baptism of fire declared by John the Baptist:

"Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

The baptism of fire is declared in 2 Peter 3:10

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Notice the fact that all works are burned up. The wheat is what survives to live on earth during the Day of the Lord. The church is not the wheat. The wheat are those directly chosen by Jesus after Jesus is on the earth. The church was already removed and told to wait until the final harvest was completed. This is not a church harvest. This is a harvest produced directly by Jesus:

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man."

The Son of man is Jesus.

Obviously this can be interpreted out of context as the church over the last 1994 years or the Preterists view that limits this to the first century. The church was called the body of Christ. The church is also called the bride. But how can the church be the Son of man?