2 Cor5:19

[HIM]

2 Cor 5:19 says God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
Us in Christ. God in Him that the world might believe. For He have put in us the word of this reconciliation. Then we as ordained ambassadors for Christ, through God pray be reconciled unto God. For God had made Jesus to be Sin for us that WE be made the righteousness of God IN Him. SO let's not receive this grace of God in vain. For in this day of salvation He is succouring us, our help presently that we give no offense in anything that the ministry be not blamed. But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God. For WE are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. For it is God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. And greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world.

2Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath PUT IN us the word of reconciliation.
2Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you through us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Cor 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Cor 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
2Cor 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
2Cor 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
2Cor 6:5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
2Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
During dialogue with a Jewish man several years ago, I was asked a very
pertinent question that went like this:

"Jesus died for your sins up to the point of your conversion. What about the
sins you are committing now?"

That's a reasonable question coming from a Jew because Levitical
atonements had to be repeated over and over again. Even Yom Kippur, the
great day of atonement, is only useful up to that point and from thence Jews
began accumulating sins towards the next Yom Kippur.

Now supposing God had stopped compiling the Jews' sins on Yom Kippur?
Well, that would've been be the cat's meow because then they would've
needed to avail themselves of the great day of atonement but one time only
rather than repeatedly year after year.

Well; the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God per Exodus,
Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy doesn't allow for God to stop
compiling His people's sins; whereas Christ's crucifixion is much better than
Yom Kippur because it does allow for God to stop.

● 2Cor 5:19 . . God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not
counting men's sins against them. (cf. Jer 30:33 & Heb 10:1-18)

The Greek word translated "counting" pertains to inventory, i.e. an
indictment. Well, needless to say; without an indictment, prosecutors have
no grounds for hauling someone into court.

* There's a bit of a moral hazard under these circumstances. Due to the fact
that Jesus' followers are on an honor system instead of a legal system, they
have an incentive to become ever more sinful; hence Paul's urging them to
cultivate self restraint.

● Gal 5:13 . .You, my brethren, were called to be free. But do not use your
freedom to indulge the sinful nature.

FAQ: If God is no longer compiling the sins of His son's followers, then
what's with 1John 1:5-10?

REPLY: God desires fellowship with His son's followers; which of course
requires transparency on their part. (cf. isa 1:18 & Ps 32:5-6)

But the important thing is: according to John 5:24 nothing Jesus' followers
do now goes in the books to be used against them later on down the road
because their sins are no longer criminal matters, instead; now they're
family matters.
_

 

[HIM]

.
During dialogue with a Jewish man several years ago, I was asked a very
pertinent question that went like this:

"Jesus died for your sins up to the point of your conversion. What about the
sins you are committing now?"

That's a reasonable question coming from a Jew because Levitical
atonements had to be repeated over and over again. Even Yom Kippur, the
great day of atonement, is only useful up to that point and from thence Jews
began accumulating sins towards the next Yom Kippur.

Now supposing God had stopped compiling the Jews' sins on Yom Kippur?
Well, that would've been be the cat's meow because then they would've
needed to avail themselves of the great day of atonement but one time only
rather than repeatedly year after year.

Well; the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God per Exodus,
Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy doesn't allow for God to stop
compiling His people's sins; whereas Christ's crucifixion is much better than
Yom Kippur because it does allow for God to stop.

● 2Cor 5:19 . . God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not
counting men's sins against them. (cf. Jer 30:33 & Heb 10:1-18)

The Greek word translated "counting" pertains to inventory, i.e. an
indictment. Well, needless to say; without an indictment, prosecutors have
no grounds for hauling someone into court.

* There's a bit of a moral hazard under these circumstances. Due to the fact
that Jesus' followers are on an honor system instead of a legal system, they
have an incentive to become ever more sinful; hence Paul's urging them to
cultivate self restraint.

● Gal 5:13 . .You, my brethren, were called to be free. But do not use your
freedom to indulge the sinful nature.

FAQ: If God is no longer compiling the sins of His son's followers, then
what's with 1John 1:5-10?

REPLY: God desires fellowship with His son's followers; which of course
requires transparency on their part. (cf. isa 1:18 & Ps 32:5-6)

But the important thing is: according to John 5:24 nothing Jesus' followers
do now goes in the books to be used against them later on down the road
because their sins are no longer criminal matters, instead; now they're
family matters. (cf. Num 23:21)
_

Unless they are sinning willfully, doing despite unto the Spirit of Grace.

 

[Lambano]

A natural segue into Hebrews 10:1-14

10 For Torah, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the form of those things itself, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually every year, make those who approach perfect. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. ... ​

​

9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.​

​

11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies are made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.​

​

In that respect, Christ's sacrifice is once for all time.

I note that the writer uses the term ἁγιάζω ("hagiazo"), meaning "to make holy". The 2 Corinthians quote uses the verb καταλλάσσω ("katallassoo"), "to reconcile", which is a relationship term. Make sure we differentiate between removing the stain of sin that makes us unholy and repairing a busted relationship.

So, we are set apart for God's use (sanctified), but can we break the relationship? If so, is the relationship broken on God's part, or on ours?

 

[HIM]

A natural segue into Hebrews 10:1-14

10 For Torah

Since the Laws of sacrifice pertaining to our relationship with God during the first Covenant is the premise. It is not wise to translate Nomos Torah here.

The Law if used Lawfully is just. For it is for the sinner. For we would not know sin but for the Law.

So, we are set apart for God's use (sanctified), but can we break the relationship? If so, is the relationship broken on God's part, or on ours?

It doesn't matter. Repent, for If we assent unto our sin He is faithful and just to take away our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Lambano]

Since the Laws of sacrifice pertaining to our relationship with God during the first Covenant is the premise. It is not wise to translate Nomos Torah here.

The whole context of Hebrews IS comparing the old and new covenants, so translating "The Law" as "Torah" here is highly appropriate.

 

[HIM]

The whole context of Hebrews IS comparing the old and new covenants, so translating "The Law" as "Torah" here is highly appropriate.

No for the Law is in our hearts and minds through Christ. It is forever, The Ark has changed.

 

[Lambano]

It doesn't matter. Repent, for If we assent unto our sin He is faithful and just to take away our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

One major theme of Hebrews is apostasy - breaking the relationship. Which is why I asked, does sin break God's relationship with us, or can our relationship with God only be broken if we abandon it through unfaithfulness?

 

[Lambano]

It doesn't matter. Repent, for If we assent unto our sin He is faithful and just to take away our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

All sin is willful. "Gosh, I don't know how I ended up in bed with that woman; it just happened."

So, each time we sin willfully, our relationship with God is completely broken and Christ's sacrifice is of no avail until we repent?

(I'm going down this road because I want people to think about what they actually believe and what the logical implications are. Don't take it personally.)

 

[Webers_Home]

Unless they are sinning willfully, doing despite unto the Spirit of Grace.

Were I the Devil, I would make it one of my life's missions to pull the rug
out from under Christians by means of Heb 10:26-31 because many of them
haven't a clue how that that passage is a bounce from Numbers 15:30-31
nor how it speaks to conventional Jews in a way that quite a few Gentiles are
not really able to fully understand.

In a nutshell; unless one's religion is based upon compliance with the
covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God per Exodus, Leviticus,
Numbers, and Deuteronomy, then Heb 10:26-31 is nothing to worry about;
especially Christians whose association with God is based upon a different
covenant than the one that regulated Moses' beliefs and practices.

● Acts 13:38-39 . . Let it be known to you, brethren, that through this man
is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; and by him everyone who
believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by
the law of Moses.

In other words: Jesus' sacrifice is the final option for willful sinners.
_

 

[Lambano]

Were I the Devil, I would make it one of my life's missions to pull the rug
out from under Christians by means of Heb 10:26-31 because many of them
haven't a clue how that that passage is a bounce from Numbers 15:30-31
nor how it speaks to conventional Jews in a way that quite a few Gentiles are
not really able to fully understand.

Good catch. The echo from Numbers went whoosh, completely over my head.

 

[Lambano]

In a nutshell; unless one's religion is based upon compliance with the
covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God per Exodus, Leviticus,
Numbers, and Deuteronomy, then Heb 10:26-31 is nothing to worry about;
especially Christians whose association with God is based upon a different
covenant than the one that regulated Moses' beliefs and practices.

Interesting point. The author's argument boils down to, "If you abandon Christ, your sins are no longer atoned for, so God is going to deep-fat fry you" (which would still be a valid concern today), but the author's stated reasons why only make sense if they're leaving for pre-70 AD Judaism.

But mostly today, I hear Hebrews 10:26-31 removed completely from the original context of apostacy and used to hammer people about sinful lifestyles.

 

[HIM]

All sin is willful.

I agree with your example but no, people respond with out premeditation through emotion and circumstance.

And what of Paul in Romans chapter 7


Not much time presently. Thank you for responding. God willing we will have more time later.

Everyone has some very interesting responses.

 

[Behold]

So, each time we sin willfully, our relationship with God is completely broken and Christ's sacrifice is of no avail until we repent?

Sin, is defined by the Law........so where there is no Law, there is no DEFINING..

The Born again are "not under the LAW...but under Grace"..

"Where there is no LAW, there is no (sin)Transgression", .. because only the LAW defines it.

 

[Lambano]

I agree with your example but no, people respond with out premeditation through emotion and circumstance.

Yeah, I got poor impulse control too.

 

[Lambano]

"Where there is no LAW, there is no (sin)Transgression"

Yep. sin is not reckoned where there is no law (Romans 4:15, Romans 5:13), so Christians definitely don't need to repent when they find themselves in bed with the wrong person.

I can argue either side of this one.

 

[Behold]

Yep. sin is not reckoned where there is no law (Romans 4:15, Romans 5:13), so Christians definitely don't need to repent when they find themselves in bed with the wrong person.

I can argue either side of this one.

Noone who understands "the Gift of Righteousness" whereby the believer born again, has become "the righteousness of God in Christ"... will argue with Paul, who said..

""Use not your LIBERTY (In Christ) for an occasion to the flesh".

"occasion to the Flesh" is what you described as fornication.

 

[Lambano]

Noone who understands "the Gift of Righteousness" whereby the believer born again, has become "the righteousness of God in Christ"... will argue with Paul, who said..

""Use not your LIBERTY (In Christ) for an occasion to the flesh".

"occasion to the Flesh" is what you described as fornication.

Just 'cuz Paul said, "Don't do it!" (as does John in his first letter) doesn't mean those who understand the gift of righteousness never, ever again yield to temptation. When this happens, do they need to repent? Is the relationship with God broken and need to be reconciled again?

 

[Behold]

Just 'cuz Paul said, "Don't do it!" (as does John in his first letter) doesn't mean those who understand the gift of righteousness never, ever again yield to temptation.

The fact that Paul said to not use God's Grace to hide behind, to then go and enjoy carnality, proves that some will do this.

 

[Lambano]

The fact that Paul said to not use God's Grace to hide behind, to then go and enjoy carnality, proves that some will do this.

True. Or, they may feel guilty and convicted later. It happens. Then what?

I'm trying to get people thinking about the "And then what?"