Taken
Well-Known Member
We disagree…however.
No need to tire yourself…somehow thinking humans are naturally born without sin…
Glory to God,
Taken
The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.
- Thread starter Hepzibah
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
We disagree…however.
No need to tire yourself…somehow thinking humans are naturally born without sin…
Glory to God,
Taken
Yes,,,you know me...I just can't go on forever.
Our points have been made....
God is good and just...'nuff said.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Yes,,,you know me...I just can't go on forever.
Our points have been made....
God is good and just...'nuff said.
Yes.
Runningman
Active Member
Sin isn't based on technicalities and inheritance. People sin simply when they break God's laws by choice. Do you agree with that at least?
Taken
Well-Known Member
ManKinds SIN, is based on the first created and made manKINDS SEED that became corrupted BEFORE they multiplied.
Yes, Every natural born manKIND of being, inherited a corruption of their seed, VIA “procreation” from the first created and made “corrupted seed” of manKind
Humans are all born in sin, commit sin and have an opportunity to choose to have their sin FORGIVEN …. Receive a new SEED … Receive a NEW BIRTH …and sin NO MORE.
Glory to God,
Taken
Runningman
Active Member
Jesus is a man descended from Adam who never sinned. Though he was tempted in all ways a normal human is (Hebrews 4:15) he chose not to sin though he hypothetically could have had he decided to because temptation refers to a desire. Jesus told people they can stop sinning such as in John 8:11. It's simply a choice that one makes or else God couldn't pretend to judge what He would be responsible for unless He was trying to be funny. Pretty sure this isn't a joke. Original sin idea is false. Pretty much debunks Calvin's TULIP as well.
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
My bible says something different to your bible, so that seems to be a major contributor to our disagreement. My pastor rejects the NIV version as being invalid and a fundamentally corrupt version. He sad it's the worst of all versions, so most of us use the King James and ESV etc.
The King James doesn't say "stop sinning" in 1 Cor 15:34 the NIV has added so much extra biblical texts, that the entire gospel message is perverted and lost. Gods Word tells us that those who add or remove anything from what His Word, would incur His wrath.
It would be foolish and hypocritical of Apostles like Paul, to tell people to stop sinning after he admitted that he can't stop sinning because his sin nature is more powerful than his will to resist the temptation to sin. So the bible does not support your argument, because you have come under the delusion of false doctrine.
Roman 7:15 destroys your NIV bible argument, Paul confirms that he can't stop sinning and doing what he hates. So your whole argument is dead in the water.
Roman 7:15 "For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do"
Taken
Well-Known Member
Your post reflects being typically elementary and wrongly taught by man and wrongly taught the understanding by man, with a toss in the mix of a couple of dominations other than your own as supposed solidification.
I do not agree with you.
Jesus was NOT a human man SENT to teach human men how to become MADE in Gods Likeness.
Jesus IS the Spirit OF the Invisible God, SENT “in the LIKENESS AS a human man” FOR human men TO SEE, TO HEAR, TO LEARN HOW, (according to Gods Order and Way),
TO become MADE in the Likeness AS God.
Glory to God,
Taken
Taken
Well-Known Member
Disagree with your UNDERSTANDING.
It is the Nature of Natural of man…to have THOUGHTS pop into his MIND…that which may be wicked, evil, and can not naturally be STOPPED.
And Paul HATED having such thoughts plague his CARNAL MIND….
AND Paul revealed…AND TAUGHT…although he could not control those thoughts, and hated having those thoughts….
HE DID NOT ACT ON THOSE THOUGHTS…
As he plainly said…”he DID NOT PRACTICE those thoughts”….
While a natural man cannot stop the thoughts that pop into his Carnal Mind…
And such thoughts are disturbing…
IT IS WHAT A MAN DOES about those thoughts….Act on them….Practice them…or supersede them, subdue them, overpower them …. With the Thoughts of the mans spirit IN HIS HEART….
Which is the WHOLE POINT of Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and receiving of a Born Again Spirit…for a man to HAVE the POWER within his spirit TO overpower, subdue, what his Natural Carnal mind thinks and would REALLY LIKE TO DO….
WHAT DOES the CARNAL MIND….really want to DO….to “his” enemies…to “those” against his God? Open a can of whoop arse…whip him, beat him, kill him? In a word…..YES!
And such ACTS are called VENGEANCE…
God KNOWS the nature of the mans Carnal Mind…….and has given an Offering to those willing to RECEIVE…an Order and Way to “overcome” the Carnal Mind….with a STRONGER, more powerful, born again spirit, with the man, in the man….as that man journey’s through his natural life, continually bombarded with injustices and in your face anti-Christs.
AND the comforting….that VENGEANCE is Gods….to RIGHT WRONGS effected by men against men.
Glory to God,
Taken
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
But Paul never claimed to have the power to subdue or overcome the temptation to sin. He actually admitted the opposite and said, as hard as he tries to resist the temptation, he acts on it and commits the sin in spite of his best efforts to resist. This confirms the fact that sin remains with us until we die and we will sin every single day for the rest of our lives.
Paul actually capitulated to his sin nature, by saying "o wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death". None of this means that Paul gave himself over to serve sin, to the contrary he described living with his residual sin nature, as a wrestling match, where he is in a perpetual war against his will.
Our battle begins when God regenerates us and makes us alive, so we can see our true state of depravity. Before God quickens us to life, and shows us our true state, we drink sin like water and think nothing of it. But as soon as we are made alive, we enter into a mortal battle against our old nature and this battle continue to the day we die, then we receive our glorified sinless, immortal body.
David was a man after Gods own hart, but he was also a murderer and adulterer at the same time. God people are not sinless, but we are forgiven for every past, present and future sin, so we can never lose our salvation.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
How do you see Paul's exhortation to "walk according to the Spirit, not according to the flesh", see Romans 8:1-17? Can the Holy Spirit give one the power to walk without sin for an indefinite (though perhaps finite) period of time?
Maybe "can" is the wrong word considering the Holy Spirit is involved; "does" may be better.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Acts…
Commits…
….
But does not serve?
Contradictory.
Did someone make that claim?
I didn’t.
How ?? does your “future sin” teaching…measure up to…1 Jon 3:9. ….without contradiction?
1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Glory to God,
Taken
Last edited:
Lambano
Well-Known Member
In the Greek it says μὴ ἁμαρτάνετε. Present Active Imperative verb. "Don't sin".
Okay, so Paul is foolish and hypocritical. John more so; he wrote an entire letter whose stated theme is "don't sin" (1 John 2:1). Now, whether we CAN stop sinning is a different question. Probably everyone here would agree that "with men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible".
The question is not whether the Holy Spirit CAN help a man walk without sin, it's DOES He? And related question, is there anything believers can do to accelerate the process? There are a handful on this site who can claim to have walked "in the Spirit" in a more mystical way, if only for a limited period of time. I am not a mystic and I can't claim to have walked "in the Spirit" in this sense, but I'm not going to discount others' experience either.
Oh, well. Mystics and systematic theologians never did get along.
Last edited:
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Maybe you can interpret, what it means, to be Born Of God’s seed?..politely asks.
1 John 3
King James Version
3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Last edited:
Taken
Well-Known Member
I CONSIDER….the times, the era, the people…(according to Gods ORDER and WAY)…
MEANING…the LAW…who it was given to, who agreed to abide, thus who it did and did not apply to, who defaulted in obedience, when it was fulfilled, who fulfilled it, who rejected it being fulfilled and who attempts to continue following the law.
MANY things IN the LAW were considered and called A SIN, if those SUBJECT TO THE LAW…violated the LAW.
I was NEVER given, nor agreed to abide by the LAW.
When the LAW became Fulfilled, it had ZERO effect on me being “released” from the effects of the LAW.
So….IF SIN “WAS” defined by a LAW that has become Fuliflled… which never APPLIED to a large sector of People…
DOES the meaning of SIN…as defined IN the LAW….continue to remain the SAME?
A bit of a CONUNDRUM …eh?
Moving ALONG to the NT…Whereby…Hebrew, Jews, Israelites, Gentiles…(in other words, without regard to any RACE, GENDER, AGE, CITIZENSHIP, NATIONALITY…..)
WHAT….does SCRIPTURE teach IS “SIN”?
People conniving against other people?
People deceiving other people?
People stealing from other people?
People lying to other people?
People cheating other people?
People killing other people?
No.
Those are TRESPASSES of one person causing a negative consequence AGAINST another person.
WHY are those NOT “SINS”?
BECAUSE, it is behaviors BETWEEN “PEOPLE”………..WHO HAVE the Authority to FORGIVE such negatives Behaviors AGAINST them.
AND Because “ONLY” God can FORGIVE SIN…which by Default means…SIN IS ONLY AGAINST God.
So AGAIN…exactly WHAT IS SIN?
Sin IS: the LACK of a person having Chosen to Accept Gods Offering of a one on one COMMITTED and FOREVER Relationship WITH the Lord God Almighty, according to His Offering, His Order and His Way.
Glory to God,
Taken
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
Born again believers, act, commit but we do not serve sin. If you are a servant, you must give yourself over to serve your Master. You can't just serve your Master when it's convenient for you, you must be there when He wants you to be there.
A born again believer, is not serve sin as a slave to sin serves his sin nature. A born again believer is in a constant war against his old (sin nature), which has been defeated but it still attacks and it has it way when our guard is down and we fall into temptation.
The unregenerate natural man, is not in conflict with his nature. His every motive is to fulfill his lust, he doesn't fight or war or wrestle against his old nature as Paul and every other born again believer does. The natural man makes provisions to facilitate the fulfillment of his lust, he goes to great lengths to serve his sin nature. But the born again believer goes to great lengths to prepare himself for the battle against his old sin nature, he puts on the whole armor of God and and wrestles his three enemies, that being 1. self, 2. Satan, 3. the world.
My past, present and future sin has all been paid for by Christ on the cross. So God doesn't count my sin, because I'm hid in Christ.
Romans 4:8 Blessed is the person against whom the Lord will never count sin.” Yes, what joy there is for anyone whose sins are no longer counted against him by the Lord.”
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
Paul exhorts believers to run the race and walk according to the Spirit. But the race doesn't end until you drop dead, then your race is over and your works will be burned up and only those thing sown to the Spirit will remain and you will be refined as pure gold.
Every saved person has sunk to various depths of depravity, before God regenerates us. Some of us were murderers, adulterers and all kinds of sinners, before God quickened us to life and we saw ourselves for the first time as we really are. Our journey begins when God opens our eyes, but He needs to do a lot of transforming and sanctifying work. This works takes the real of our life, and it's only completed in the life to come.
Our enemies don't just leave us alone, after we are saved. No to the contrary, they get the big guns out and attack us like never before. So it's no wonder we don't win every battle but we do win the war, in the end.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Please clarify , what do you mean by the above? thank you.
@Christian Soldier said.
Our journey begins when God opens our eyes
RJ says..we begin our journey with God, when we are Born Of God’s Living seed, that is when our eyes and ears are opened, for that is when we become one with him in spirit..my opinion.
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
God gave us the ten commandments, knowing full well that it is impossible for any of to keep a single one of them. Yes, I know some will say I never murdered anyone, but we know that you don't have to literally kill someone to be guilty of murder in God economy, because He can see into our heart and soul. And if you do something in your heart, it's as good as done in Gods view.
I tell my children to behave and to do the right thing (don't sin), but I know fully well they were born with a sin nature and they will always gravitate towards sin and rebellion. The old man is defeated in the believer, but he still rears his ugly head cries out, demanding to have his lust satisfied.
It's all well and good to exhort believers not to sin, but the exhortation is not given as a deal breaker if the hearer dares to sin again. We should also take into account that sin hurts the believer, it comes at a heavy price. We pierce ourselves through with many sorrows and some of the sins have life long consequences attached to them.
Someone once said that being born again robs you of the pleasure of sin, because you can't enjoy sin the same way you used to before you were born again. Now you have God watching every single thing you do and say, and all born again believers have a deep fear of God so we do our best not to arouse His wrath towards us.
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
You were born of Adams seed, and Adam fell into bondage to Satan when he sinned. So Adam lost the image of God and received the image of Satan. He became a slave of Satan and you were born into slavery to Satan because Adam is your federal head, he represents you.
God had to pay the ultimate price to free you from slavery to Satan, because Satan does everything in his power to stop you from escaping His control over you.
When a believer is born of the Spirit of God, they are set free from bondage/slavery and are made free in Christ. Their sins are forgiven and the "Accuser" "Satan", no longer has any legal jurisdiction to accuse you or charge you with any sin. So, now you only have God to answer to and He has already paid for every single sin that you have ever committed and that you will ever commit.
So now your resist the temptation to sin, because you have been saved and not to be saved as the Arminian gospel teaches.
