Pretrib fallacies

[WPM]

Whatever angle you look up Pretrib, it is contradictory and self-defeating. Many of its main arguments are petty, ridiculous and nonsensical!

2 future comings?

Pretrib relates parousia passages (coming) to both their supposed rapture and others to their 3rd coming. Pretribs have Christ "coming" at the rapture and they have Him "coming" 7 yrs later at a 3rd Advent. That is 2 comings! They may sugar-coat it in traditional Pretrib theological jargon or adorn it in religious double-speak but when all is said and done they apply parousia (or coming) passages to both of these events. When coupled with Christ’s 1st Coming that makes 3 comings of Christ in the Pretrib school of thought.

Absence of any mention of "the Church"?

Pretribbers argue that the absence of any mention of "the Church" between Revelation 4-19 proves that there is no Church on earth during their tribulation period. But heaven is mentioned in Revelation 4:1-2, 5:3, 13, 6:13-14, 8:1, 10, 13, 9:1, 10:1, 4, 5, 6, 8, 11:12 (X2), 13, 15, 19, 12:1, 3, 4, 7, 8, 10, 13:6, 13, 14:2, 6, 7, 13, 17, 15:1, 5, 16:11, 17, 21, 18:1, 4, 5, 20, 19:1, 11, 14, 17. This is also in the supposed Pretrib tribulation period. So, using Pretrib logic, the absence of any mention of "the Church" in any of the “heaven” passages proves it cannot be in heaven. So, it is not on earth, it is not in heaven, where is it?

The wrath of God on the righteous?

So, if your 7 year trib equates to the wrath of God (as they claim) then you have believers being subject to the wrath of God. There are obviously redeemed during the tribulation period, so, if the tribulation period is the wrath of God, you are saying that the wrath of God is upon the righteous.

Normality right up until Jesus comes?

If the day of the Lord 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34 they will 'eat, drink, and be given in marriage' up until the day that Jesus comes. This is telling us that life will continue as normal right up until Jesus' return. Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.

Denying they believe in 3 comings of Jesus?

Pretribbers are very adamant in denying that their secret rapture is the second coming (parousia) of Christ, even though Scripture depicts it as such. This totally negates their whole thesis. They then invent a further coming to support their error - despite vehemently denying that they believe in a third coming of Christ. Their whole thesis is a fabricated lie.

Here is proof that the catching away ("rapture") is a coming (parousia) of Christ.

Jesus teaches in Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

Is this a rapture passage? Is this a coming of the Lord?

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 says: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Is this a rapture passage? Is this a coming of the Lord?

II Thessalonians 2:1-8 says, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our ‘gathering together’ [Gr. episunagoge– originating from episunago] unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling awa first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken ‘out of the way’. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming [Gr. parousia].”

Is this a rapture passage? Is this a coming of the Lord?

 

[Keraz]

Whatever angle you look up Pretrib, it is contradictory and self-defeating.

They also fail to see what God actually does Plan for His people:

To all who hold to the belief of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church:
Have you really considered any alternative to a 'rapture'? Because there are viable and scriptural end times scenarios where God's people remain on earth.
You need to know that many respected Bible scholars cast doubts on a rapture, if not actively refute that theory.

So the attitude of some 'rapture to heaven' believers, how they hold the moral high ground, is unwarranted and in some cases, amounts to a very judgmental and often rude response to their fellow Christians.
This is a serious indictment against all who have strong beliefs but fail to really study or comprehend any alternatives.

Is it really God's Plan to remove His people, so they avoid the tough times prophesied to come?
Why should He do that for this generation, when all the previous generations have faced persecutions?
'Rapture' believers say it is a secret thing, because it’s not clearly stated in the Bible. Not in the Bible? So it is in fact, unbiblical and comes under the category of mankind's teachings. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Jesus warned us against being deceived; Paul said; that ravening wolves would deceive the flock, even from among the Christians: men will distort the truth to get people to follow them. Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30
So, plainly; some are deceived and even if they may be in a majority, that does not mean their beliefs are true.

 

[WPM]

They also fail to see what God actually does Plan for His people:

To all who hold to the belief of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church:
Have you really considered any alternative to a 'rapture'? Because there are viable and scriptural end times scenarios where God's people remain on earth.
You need to know that many respected Bible scholars cast doubts on a rapture, if not actively refute that theory.

So the attitude of some 'rapture to heaven' believers, how they hold the moral high ground, is unwarranted and in some cases, amounts to a very judgmental and often rude response to their fellow Christians.
This is a serious indictment against all who have strong beliefs but fail to really study or comprehend any alternatives.

Is it really God's Plan to remove His people, so they avoid the tough times prophesied to come?
Why should He do that for this generation, when all the previous generations have faced persecutions?
'Rapture' believers say it is a secret thing, because it’s not clearly stated in the Bible. Not in the Bible? So it is in fact, unbiblical and comes under the category of mankind's teachings. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Jesus warned us against being deceived; Paul said; that ravening wolves would deceive the flock, even from among the Christians: men will distort the truth to get people to follow them. Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30
So, plainly; some are deceived and even if they may be in a majority, that does not mean their beliefs are true.

I don't believe they are a majority today. Pretrib is dying.

Pretribbers have no answer to the truth. That is why they normally default to name-calling and childishness.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Whatever angle you look up Pretrib, it is contradictory and self-defeating. Many of its main arguments are petty, ridiculous and nonsensical!

2 future comings?

Pretrib relates parousia passages (coming) to both their supposed rapture and others to their 3rd coming. Pretribs have Christ "coming" at the rapture and they have Him "coming" 7 yrs later at a 3rd Advent. That is 2 comings! They may sugar-coat it in traditional Pretrib theological jargon or adorn it in religious double-speak but when all is said and done they apply parousia (or coming) passages to both of these events. When coupled with Christ’s 1st Coming that makes 3 comings of Christ in the Pretrib school of thought.

They ignore so much scripture. Scripture teaches that Jesus will only come the second time (Heb 9:28, Acts 1:11), not a third time, and He will come from heaven in the same manner that He ascended there.

Absence of any mention of "the Church"?

Pretribbers argue that the absence of any mention of "the Church" between Revelation 4-19 proves that there is no Church on earth during their tribulation period. But heaven is mentioned in Revelation 4:1-2, 5:3, 13, 6:13-14, 8:1, 10, 13, 9:1, 10:1, 4, 5, 6, 8, 11:12 (X2), 13, 15, 19, 12:1, 3, 4, 7, 8, 10, 13:6, 13, 14:2, 6, 7, 13, 17, 15:1, 5, 16:11, 17, 21, 18:1, 4, 5, 20, 19:1, 11, 14, 17. This is also in the supposed Pretrib tribulation period. So, using Pretrib logic, the absence of any mention of "the Church" in any of the “heaven” passages proves it cannot be in heaven. So, it is not on earth, it is not in heaven, where is it?

This claim of pretrib, that the church is not referenced in Revelation 4-19, is possibly the most ridiculous one that they make. And, as you showed here, if you apply their logic to the passages referring to heaven then you end up with the church not being on earth or in heaven. But, it's clear that the church is referenced as being on earth several times between Revelation 4-19. Who else but "the saints" are in the church. Those in the church are referred to as saints several times in NT scripture. Also, how can anyone think that those "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev 12:17) and "the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus" (Rev 14:12) are not in the church?

The wrath of God on the righteous?

So, if your 7 year trib equates to the wrath of God (as they claim) then you have believers being subject to the wrath of God. There are obviously redeemed during the tribulation period, so, if the tribulation period is the wrath of God, you are saying that the wrath of God is upon the righteous.

Yet another claim of pretrib that makes no sense. Somehow it's okay for those believers to experience God's wrath since they are supposedly not in the church? How does it make any sense for any believers to ever experience His wrath for any reason?

Normality right up until Jesus comes?

If the day of the Lord 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

Yeah, how does this make any sense? They would not be saying "peace and safety" after 7 years of tribulation.

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34 they will 'eat, drink, and be given in marriage' up until the day that Jesus comes. This is telling us that life will continue as normal right up until Jesus' return. Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.

Pretrib just makes no sense no matter how you look at it. They have Luke 17:26-37 occurring before a pre-trib rapture, but they ignore that Jesus taught that those left behind are all killed just as all unbelievers were killed in the flood after Noah entered the ark and all unbelievers were killed in Sodom after Lot went out from there. Instead, they somehow think those left behind are allowed to live on for another 7 years during a supposed tribulation period which does not line up at all with what Jesus said in Luke 17:26-37.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't believe they are a majority today. Pretrib is dying.

Pretribbers have no answer to the truth. That is why they normally default to name-calling and childishness.

Yeah, I think it was only a majority view in the U.S. at one point at the height of the popularity of the Left Behind books, but I doubt that is the case anymore since that view has been thoroughly refuted in many places online which has helped many to see the truth of the matter. I don't think pretrib was ever very popular in other countries as far as I know.

 

[Davy]

Thus the next... question about so many deceived by man's false pre-trib rapture doctrine, is why... has that doctrine become such a mainstay in so many Churches?

As our Heavenly Father warned the young children of Israel back in the Book of Judges about not mingling with the pagan nations of Canaan and their idols, God said He would thus prove Israel by those pagans, to see if Israel would follow Him, or not.

So I believe for today, for the end, God is allowing the many false doctrines to be pushed, to see who will listen to Him in His Word, and who will not but will listen to men instead. It's going to do a lot of weeding out.

 

[WPM]

Yeah, I think it was only a majority view in the U.S. at one point at the height of the popularity of the Left Behind books, but I doubt that is the case anymore since that view has been thoroughly refuted in many places online which has helped many to see the truth of the matter. I don't think pretrib was ever very popular in other countries as far as I know.

True! They cannot engage in a detailed discussion of any biblical text because their teachers have left them holding an illegitimate baby. Those who are brazen enough to go online and defend it get frustrated because they have no answer to the proper scriptural interpretation of the sacred text. Their strongest tactics are ad hominem and avoidance. But this is also their weakest tactics.

 

[WPM]

So I believe for today, for the end, God is allowing the many false doctrines to be pushed, to see who will listen to Him in His Word, and who will not but will listen to men instead. It's going to do a lot of weeding out.

I believe there is a lot of truth to this.

 

[WPM]

Op Note

I am going to add another duplicity of Pretrib to the Op. Please present other contradictions you have found to the thread.

Pretribbers deny that their rapture is the second coming (parousia) of Christ, even though Scripture depicts it as such. This totally negates their whole thesis. They then invent a further coming to support their error - thus proving they do believe in a third coming.

Here is proof that the catching away ("rapture") is a coming (parousia) of Christ.

Jesus teaches in Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

Is this a rapture passage? Is this a coming of the Lord?

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 says: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Is this a rapture passage? Is this a coming of the Lord?

II Thessalonians 2:1-8 says, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our ‘gathering together’ [Gr. episunagoge– originating from episunago] unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling awa first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken ‘out of the way’. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming [Gr. parousia].”

Is this a rapture passage? Is this a coming of the Lord?

 

[WPM]

They ignore so much scripture. Scripture teaches that Jesus will only come the second time (Heb 9:28, Acts 1:11), not a third time, and He will come from heaven in the same manner that He ascended there.


This claim of pretrib, that the church is not referenced in Revelation 4-19, is possibly the most ridiculous one that they make. And, as you showed here, if you apply their logic to the passages referring to heaven then you end up with the church not being on earth or in heaven. But, it's clear that the church is referenced as being on earth several times between Revelation 4-19. Who else but "the saints" are in the church. Those in the church are referred to as saints several times in NT scripture. Also, how can anyone think that those "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev 12:17) and "the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus" (Rev 14:12) are not in the church?



Yet another claim of pretrib that makes no sense. Somehow it's okay for those believers to experience God's wrath since they are supposedly not in the church? How does it make any sense for any believers to ever experience His wrath for any reason?


Yeah, how does this make any sense? They would not be saying "peace and safety" after 7 years of tribulation.


Pretrib just makes no sense no matter how you look at it. They have Luke 17:26-37 occurring before a pre-trib rapture, but they ignore that Jesus taught that those left behind are all killed just as all unbelievers were killed in the flood after Noah entered the ark and all unbelievers were killed in Sodom after Lot went out from there. Instead, they somehow think those left behind are allowed to live on for another 7 years during a supposed tribulation period which does not line up at all with what Jesus said in Luke 17:26-37.

Have you ever got a straight reply from a Pretribber in regard to Heb 9:28?

 

[Taken]

Pretrib fallacies

Fallacies BEGIN with MAN…WHEN man IS WiTHOUT THE TRUTH…”according to God”…

Thousands of Passages IN Scripture.
Billions of Humans..
Millions of Angels…
One Lord God Almighty…who SHALL expressly search, review, judge, sentence, EACH human and angels standing WITH or WITHOUT the Lord God Almighty….and DOLE out their CONSEQUENCE accordingly.

God IS INVISIBLE…to Human EYES!
God IS omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient …..
ManKIND from the First Created and Made…
Has been given Knowledge, Freewill to Choose, and Knowledge for the Consequence of his choices…;

SHOCKER….Not every Scripture APPLIES to EVERY SINGLE manKIND or spiritKIND of being!!
DUH….thus the thousands of passages in Scriptures!

Scripture does NOT contradict itself…
But it DOES require TRUTH and WISDOM to comprehend WHICH SCRIPTURE APPLIES TO WHOM……and WHY!

The Son of Man….was SENT to Earth….
* WHY…was He sent…in the Likeness “AS” a man?
DUH…so human men COULD SEE Him!

WHILE “ON” EARTH…Names, Titles, Descriptions were REVEALED that APPLY to Him…
And Particular Titles and Descriptions is “supposed” to give the learning babe manKIND “knowledge” of WHAT HE DOES by, through, of THE AUTHORITY according to the revealing of His “TITLE” in any given passage!!!

TITLES “IN CONTEXT” matter!

Mr. Donald Trump has had the Titles CEO, President, Employer of many Companies…
(If you never worked for any of his companies….those Titles are irrelevant to YOU.
Mr. Donald Trump has the Titles, Dad, Grand-dad, Uncle, Brother, Nephew, Husband, Sweetheart, blah, blah, blah…IF you are not Related to him…those Titles are irrelevant to YOU. The titles employee, dad, g-pa…do not apply for you to call him, nor will he recognize you in such capacity….remember Jesus saying…I never knew you, to men who Name Dropped Jesus…but were not with Jesus OR IN Christ

Perspective IN CONTEXT Matters!

When Christ Summons His Church to Him when and where…..and YOU are not a member of His Church…it does not APPLY to YOU.

When the Lamb of God is On Gods Holy Mountain with Gods elect 144,000 Virgin, Sealed First Fruits….and you are not an Israelite summoned to climb up the Mountain….that does not APPLY to YOU.

When the Son of Man Sits on a white Cloud for ALL the world to SEE Him…IF you still HAVE Earthly EYES…or Spiritual EYES…YOU WILL SEE HIM…
Earthy EYES will LOOK UP (because UP is were the clouds are!)
Sanctified / Holy / Demonic spirits EYES will SEE HIM…
(CHRISTS sanctified Church, holy spirits WILL BE WITH Him…unseen to earthly eyes!)

WHEN the Son of man RETURNS….
(Not rocket science…He came to earth, He left earth, He shall return to Earth…)

The EARTH….ding, ding, ding…IS NOT the CLOUDS!

When the Son of Man……(this time WITH POWER) returns to Earth…

Ta da…He will Literally BE ON THE EARTH.

CONTEXT MATTERS…
If you do not pay attention to WHO…(according to title and authority is DOING WHAT….you will END UP VOID of the TRUTH)

Being VOID of the Facts of Truth and trying to debate and argue one with THE Facts of the TRUTH will be a FAIL on your part.

The RAPTURE…is not about the first or second mass resurrections.
The RAPTURE…IS an EXCLUSIVE redeeming of Christ’s Church by the authority of the Lord and timing that remains SECRET…
(BECAUSE….it is ABOUT the Scriptural teaching of CHOOSING TO BE “PREPARED” at any moment for an EVENT…you willingly exercised your FREEWILL to be a “participant” in such EVENT.)

If YOU DID NOT CHOOSE to be Prepared and be a participant in such Event Called the Rapture ( which IS Christ the Lord Jesus Redeeming His Church )…..don’t fret and worry about what OtHERS HAVE CHOSEN.

If YOU want to BE ON EARTH during Gods tribulation and wrath sent down from Heaven…..AND BECOME BODILY DEAD…as a badge of heroic martyrdom …. (BECAUSE YOUR BODILY CRUCIFIXION WITH JESUS FAILED)… That’s you…
and I’m sure God who is Faithful and JUST will accommodate your failure to have become Crucified bodily dead with Jesus…
And you suffer a “possible gruesome” bodily death On earth….

Let’s hope you get what YOU want….
And I’ll remain confident God will manifest what He promised Me.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Keraz]

If YOU DID NOT CHOOSE to be Prepared and be a participant in such Event Called the Rapture ( which IS Christ the Lord Jesus Redeeming His Church )…..don’t fret and worry about what OtHERS HAVE CHOSEN.

This is incredibly arrogant and totally unscriptural.
No one gets to 'choose' their future like that.

What we are told we must do when things get bad, is to rely on the Lord for His protection, as He deals to His and our enemies.
Prophesies like Romans 1:18 and Hebrews 10:27, say how the Lord will direct His fiery wrath against His enemies, but He knows how to keep His people safe, 2 Peter 2:9, 1 Corinthians 10:13 By protection; NOT removal. Luke 21:18-19

 

[Taken]

This is incredibly arrogant and totally unscriptural.
No one gets to 'choose' their future like that.

Totally scriptural…from OT to this day…
Josh 24:
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

2 Pet 1:
[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

What we are told we must do when things get bad, is to rely on the Lord for His protection, as He deals to His and our enemies.
Prophesies like Romans 1:18 and Hebrews 10:27, say how the Lord will direct His fiery wrath against His enemies, but He knows how to keep His people safe, 2 Peter 2:9, 1 Corinthians 10:13 By protection; NOT removal. Luke 21:18-19

What we are taught to DO…is hear, read, learn, CHOOSE/ELECT and TRUST The Lord God shall be WITH us during times the EVIL and WICKED “OF” this world who PERSECUTE the man standing WITH the Lord God……

AND hear, read, learn TRUST The Lord God has OFFERED the man WITH Him, an ESCAPE and DELIVERANCE FROM THIS WORLD….WHEN….
The Lord God EXACTS “HIS JUDGEMENTS and VENGEANCE” upon this world and its inhabitants …
* FOR THEIR….NOT standing WITH Him…
* FOR THEIR….Tribulations and wrath and persecutions AGAINST those WHO….CHOSE to STAND WITH The Lord God.

You REVEAL, by your own testimony…YOU DO NOT TRUST the Lord God.

You REVEAL, by your own testimony…YOU
Believe PEOPLE who DO TRUST The Lord God are Arrogant.

You REVEAL, by your own testimony…YOUR “idea / plan” IS THAT WHICH the Lord God “SHALL DO”….

HUMANS ARE MORTAL….You obviously have MISSED the LESSON of THE PURPOSE of the
LAST DAY TRIBULATIONS and WRATH sent down FROM Heaven…

The LAST DAYS ARE of the Lord God SEPARATING the DIVIDED…WITH and WITHOUT Him!

Obviously….YOU are NOT in Agreement WITH “HOW” The Lord God SHALL “SEPARATE” those WITH Him, “FROM” those “WITHOUT” Him…
TOO BAD…”you choose to remain Ignorant”…
TOO BAD…”you choose to rail against those who Understand Gods Plan and TRUST God SHALL SEPARATE those WITH Him…according to His WORD…not yours.”

ONLY you are accountable for YOUR Choices!!

 

[WPM]

Pretrib fallacies

Fallacies BEGIN with MAN…WHEN man IS WiTHOUT THE TRUTH…”according to God”…

Thousands of Passages IN Scripture.
Billions of Humans..
Millions of Angels…
One Lord God Almighty…who SHALL expressly search, review, judge, sentence, EACH human and angels standing WITH or WITHOUT the Lord God Almighty….and DOLE out their CONSEQUENCE accordingly.

God IS INVISIBLE…to Human EYES!
God IS omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient …..
ManKIND from the First Created and Made…
Has been given Knowledge, Freewill to Choose, and Knowledge for the Consequence of his choices…;

SHOCKER….Not every Scripture APPLIES to EVERY SINGLE manKIND or spiritKIND of being!!
DUH….thus the thousands of passages in Scriptures!

Scripture does NOT contradict itself…
But it DOES require TRUTH and WISDOM to comprehend WHICH SCRIPTURE APPLIES TO WHOM……and WHY!

The Son of Man….was SENT to Earth….
* WHY…was He sent…in the Likeness “AS” a man?
DUH…so human men COULD SEE Him!

WHILE “ON” EARTH…Names, Titles, Descriptions were REVEALED that APPLY to Him…
And Particular Titles and Descriptions is “supposed” to give the learning babe manKIND “knowledge” of WHAT HE DOES by, through, of THE AUTHORITY according to the revealing of His “TITLE” in any given passage!!!

TITLES “IN CONTEXT” matter!

Mr. Donald Trump has had the Titles CEO, President, Employer of many Companies…
(If you never worked for any of his companies….those Titles are irrelevant to YOU.
Mr. Donald Trump has the Titles, Dad, Grand-dad, Uncle, Brother, Nephew, Husband, Sweetheart, blah, blah, blah…IF you are not Related to him…those Titles are irrelevant to YOU. The titles employee, dad, g-pa…do not apply for you to call him, nor will he recognize you in such capacity….remember Jesus saying…I never knew you, to men who Name Dropped Jesus…but were not with Jesus OR IN Christ

Perspective IN CONTEXT Matters!

When Christ Summons His Church to Him when and where…..and YOU are not a member of His Church…it does not APPLY to YOU.

When the Lamb of God is On Gods Holy Mountain with Gods elect 144,000 Virgin, Sealed First Fruits….and you are not an Israelite summoned to climb up the Mountain….that does not APPLY to YOU.

When the Son of Man Sits on a white Cloud for ALL the world to SEE Him…IF you still HAVE Earthly EYES…or Spiritual EYES…YOU WILL SEE HIM…
Earthy EYES will LOOK UP (because UP is were the clouds are!)
Sanctified / Holy / Demonic spirits EYES will SEE HIM…
(CHRISTS sanctified Church, holy spirits WILL BE WITH Him…unseen to earthly eyes!)

WHEN the Son of man RETURNS….
(Not rocket science…He came to earth, He left earth, He shall return to Earth…)

The EARTH….ding, ding, ding…IS NOT the CLOUDS!

When the Son of Man……(this time WITH POWER) returns to Earth…

Ta da…He will Literally BE ON THE EARTH.

CONTEXT MATTERS…
If you do not pay attention to WHO…(according to title and authority is DOING WHAT….you will END UP VOID of the TRUTH)

Being VOID of the Facts of Truth and trying to debate and argue one with THE Facts of the TRUTH will be a FAIL on your part.

The RAPTURE…is not about the first or second mass resurrections.
The RAPTURE…IS an EXCLUSIVE redeeming of Christ’s Church by the authority of the Lord and timing that remains SECRET…
(BECAUSE….it is ABOUT the Scriptural teaching of CHOOSING TO BE “PREPARED” at any moment for an EVENT…you willingly exercised your FREEWILL to be a “participant” in such EVENT.)

If YOU DID NOT CHOOSE to be Prepared and be a participant in such Event Called the Rapture ( which IS Christ the Lord Jesus Redeeming His Church )…..don’t fret and worry about what OtHERS HAVE CHOSEN.

If YOU want to BE ON EARTH during Gods tribulation and wrath sent down from Heaven…..AND BECOME BODILY DEAD…as a badge of heroic martyrdom …. (BECAUSE YOUR BODILY CRUCIFIXION WITH JESUS FAILED)… That’s you…
and I’m sure God who is Faithful and JUST will accommodate your failure to have become Crucified bodily dead with Jesus…
And you suffer a “possible gruesome” bodily death On earth….

Let’s hope you get what YOU want….
And I’ll remain confident God will manifest what He promised Me.

Glory to God,
Taken

This is all noise! How about finally showing us a passage that teaches a rapture of the church, followed by seven year tribulation, followed by a third coming?

 

[Keraz]

Our Situation Now:

For Israel: now the Christian Church – Ezekiel 22:26-29 Her priests give rulings that violate My Law and profane what is sacred to Me. They teach there is no distinction between the clean and the unclean, they disregard the keeping of the seventh day of rest and I am dishonoured among them. The peoples leaders are like wolves, doing anything to obtain unjust gain. Her prophetic teachers give out false ideas, making them out to be the truth. The people practice extortion, robbery and they oppress the needy and the alien, denying them justice.

For Judah , the Jewish State of Israel – Jeremiah 8:7-13 Birds know when to migrate and the season to return, but My people do not know the requirements of the Lord. How can you say: We are wise, we have the Law of the Lord, when the scribes with their lying pens have falsified it? The wise will be put to shame, they will be dismayed and trapped. They have failed to discern the Word of the Lord, so what sort of wisdom is theirs?

Therefore, I shall give their wives and their Land to new owners, for all the people, both high and low, are out to make money and gain fame. Prophet and priest, are frauds, every one of them. [End time fiction writers and Rabbis] They address today’s problems superficially, saying: All is well. All well? No nothing is well! They ought to be ashamed, but their pride and prestige won’t allow it. Therefore they will all fall with a great crash on the Lord’s Day of Reckoning. There will be no grapes on the vine, no figs on the fig tree, [Israel: the vine and Judah the fig tree, both do not produce good fruit, that is: the fruit of obeying the Commandments and spreading the Gospel.] even the foliage will wither. [The people - ‘passed under the rod of judgement, all those who revolt and rebel will die’. Ezekiel 20:37-38] What I have given them, will be taken from them.

What we should do about it:

Isaiah 56:1-7 The Lord says: Maintain justice and do what is right, My deliverance is close at hand and My victory will soon be revealed. Happy is the person who keeps these precepts, who keeps the seventh day unprofained and avoids all wrongdoing.

Isaiah 58:6-7 & 13-14 What the Lord requires is justice, to give the oppressed a chance, to give food and clothing to the needy and that you do your duty to your kinfolk. Keep the seventh day holy by not travelling or doing business and attending to your own affairs. Then you will find joy in the Lord and the holding of your father Jacob, will be yours to enjoy.

Micah 6:8 The Lord has told you mortals what is good and what He requires of you. Only act justly, to keep loyal and to walk humbly with your God.

What the Lord will do:

Zephaniah 3:8-9 Therefore wait for Me, says the Lord; wait for the Day when I stand up to accuse you. I have decided to judge nations and kingdoms in order to pour out My wrath upon them, all of My burning anger. The whole earth will be enveloped by the fire of My wrath. Then I will give to the people a pure language, so that they all may call upon the Name of the Lord and serve Him with one accord.

Isaiah 51:7-8 Listen to Me, My people who know what is right: you that lay My instructions to heart, do not fear the threats or reviling of enemies, for they will become like a garment devoured by grubs. My saving power will last forever and My deliverance to all generations.

Acts 26:6-7 It is the hope based on the promise God made to our forefathers...The twelve Tribes worship with intense devotion in the hope of seeing the fulfilment of that promise. [That is the promise of the Messiah and the blessing to every faithful Christian.]

Romans 3:24 All are made righteous if they accept the gift of atonement through Christ Jesus.

Reference: Revised English Bible. Some verses abridged.

 

[Taken]

This is all noise! How about finally showing us a passage that teaches a rapture of the church, followed by seven year tribulation, followed by a third coming?

You have been Told, given Examples and Shown in Scripture:
* WHO
* WHAT
* WHEN
* WHY
* WHERE

No one requires you to read, learn, believe or convert.

No one is required to read, learn, believe, convert or understand FOR you.

I hope YOU get what YOU want…to live a long life and TO BE PRESENT ON THE EARTH when the Lord God Almighty Sends down Tribulations and Wrath upon the Whole Earth and it Inhabitants.

Glory to God Faithful and Just,
Taken

 

[WPM]

You have been Told, given Examples and Shown in Scripture:
* WHO
* WHAT
* WHEN
* WHY
* WHERE

No one requires you to read, learn, believe or convert.

No one is required to read, learn, believe, convert or understand FOR you.

I hope YOU get what YOU want…to live a long life and TO BE PRESENT ON THE EARTH when the Lord God Almighty Sends down Tribulations and Wrath upon the Whole Earth and it Inhabitants.

Glory to God Faithful and Just,
Taken

Not true. You have nothing. Quote the text in full that teaches that. You cannot because it does not exist.

 

[Taken]

Not true. You have nothing. Quote the text in full that teaches that. You cannot because it does not exist.

You remind me of an Atheist who demands to see Scripture in “their” words that “they” can Carnally understand.

Try as you may to understand Spiritual teaching, Spiritual things, with your Carnal mindedness …. It is a FAiL.

You have been given Scriptures regarding those IN Christ who ARE Already Sanctified, Already Prepared to be Delivered TO meet their Lord….They ARE NOT appointed to BE ON Earth suffering the Tribulations and Wrath Sent Down from Heaven…
They ESCAPE the suffering by the power of God who shall raise them UP above the Earth…

SAME AS NOAH was NOT appointed to suffer the Tribulations and wrath Sent Down from Heaven and He as well was raise UP above the Earth.

You simply can not Understand Spiritual teaching… and actually TEACH AGAINST Gods Word….SO BE HAPPY…HOPE you get to experience LIFE ON EARTH During the last days Tribulation….
And the Wrath of the Lamb
And the Wrath of the Devil
And the Wrath of God

Mmm mmm mmm oh what Joy to TO BE KEPT ALIVE ON EARTH (as you preach) to see people being slaughtered, burned to death, the famines, the bitting insects, the screams, agony, mmm mmm mmm the SMELL OF burnt flesh and dead rotting corpse’….

Sounds like a Warped fantasy to hope that be your experience.

 

[WPM]

You remind me of an Atheist who demands to see Scripture in “their” words that “they” can Carnally understand.

Try as you may to understand Spiritual teaching, Spiritual things, with your Carnal mindedness …. It is a FAiL.

You have been given Scriptures regarding those IN Christ who ARE Already Sanctified, Already Prepared to be Delivered TO meet their Lord….They ARE NOT appointed to BE ON Earth suffering the Tribulations and Wrath Sent Down from Heaven…
They ESCAPE the suffering by the power of God who shall raise them UP above the Earth…

SAME AS NOAH was NOT appointed to suffer the Tribulations and wrath Sent Down from Heaven and He as well was raise UP above the Earth.

You simply can not Understand Spiritual teaching… and actually TEACH AGAINST Gods Word….SO BE HAPPY…HOPE you get to experience LIFE ON EARTH During the last days Tribulation….
And the Wrath of the Lamb
And the Wrath of the Devil
And the Wrath of God

Mmm mmm mmm oh what Joy to TO BE KEPT ALIVE ON EARTH (as you preach) to see people being slaughtered, burned to death, the famines, the bitting insects, the screams, agony, mmm mmm mmm the SMELL OF burnt flesh and dead rotting corpse’….

Sounds like a Warped fantasy to hope that be your experience.

Wow! What cop out! This response says it all! Every poster needs to read this. This sums up the whole debate between Pretrib and Amil.

And, Atheists are not interested in the Word of God. They don't believe it. To rubbish the Word away (as you do) is pitiful. It exposes your doctrine. This is a damning indictment on your doctrine.

It shows it is man-made. It is not centered on the Word of God. It is not supported by the Bible.

The Pretrib mask fell off, your theology just went up in smoke, with this admission.

 

[Taken]

Wow! What cop out! This response says it all! Every poster needs to read this. This sums up the whole debate between Pretrib and Amil.

And, Atheists are not interested in the Word of God. They don't believe it. To rubbish the Word away (as you do) is pitiful. It exposes your doctrine. This is a damning indictment on your doctrine.

It shows it is man-made. It is not centered on the Word of God. It is not supported by the Bible.

The Pretrib mask fell off, your theology just went up in smoke, with this admission.

WOW is right…since you are claiming some sort of victory for yourself….when the fact is you have not overcome anything…

OBTUSE!