GJohn 1.1 ἦν

[face2face]

Yet at the age of 12, He blew away?

What did angel Gabriel tell Mary her Son will grow up to be?

There is an unapproachable distance between Jesus and man.

Yes, as was prophesied

And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: Isaiah 11:3

In fact being a son he feared him who was able to save him from death.

The closeness between Jesus and man is unmistakable to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Hebrews 5:7

Have you learnt anything Fred or are you still deceived?

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

That makes no sense. IMHO
I see no dilemma.

Those who have been persuaded to adopt the lie as truth, do not want to see anything other than what they have been led to believe….when was this belief adopted? It was certainly not believed by God’s ancient people. (Deut 6:4)
if this foundational doctrine is a lie, what else have they lied about? It’s a scary thought, but in a world deceived by the devil for thousands of years, can you trust anything that is believed by the majority to be the truth? (1 John 5:19)
It isn’t the “many” who are on the road to life….it is the “few” (Matt 7:13-14)…..do you understand why? (Matt 7:21-23)

The text tells us:
1) The Logos was from the beginning.

The “beginning” of what? The eternal God had no beginning, but creation did. So if God is eternal, there must have been a point in time where he decided that creation needed to happen, and his first thought was to create his firstborn son, who was “with God” before all other creation, because all creation thereafter, came through the agency of his son….”through him and for him”……(Col 1:15-17)

2) The Logos was with God.

Logically (and we get our sense of logic from our Creator) you cannot be “WITH” someone and at the same time BE that someone.
You can’t be one entity who can be in three places at once, and each part talk to the other, have one praying to the other, and one not knowing what the other knows…..

He is the “image of an invisible God”…..make sense of that if you can……
Seriously I can only wonder why anyone could worship such a strange god…..either he is who he said he was, (John 10:36) and who his apostles said he was, or he isn’t….(1 Cor 8:5-6)

3) The Logos was God.

The logos was “theos”…not “ho theos”. Look up the primary definition of “theos” in a concordance…..see how many meanings it has….you can’t just assume that theos means anything but how the Greeks intended it to mean. It means any god or goddess or divinity. Jesus was the divine son of God, just as he said.
His apostles were not in any doubt either…calling him a “divine mighty one” was not calling him Almighty God.

4) The Logos became flesh and dwelt among us. (Jesus)

Yes, the logos became flesh….but “ho theos” did not.
God himself never needed to become his own “servant”. (Acts 4:27)
John also said that “no man has seen God at any time” (John 1:18) Did he lie?

If the Logos became the flesh that dwelt among us (Jesus), then the Logos was God in the beginning.

Nope….not even close. The logos was “WITH GOD in the beginning”…..if you are “with” someone, can you also “be” that same person? Can a part of God be in heaven whilst another separate part of him is on earth? Can they have a conversation with each other? Can one part of God know what another part of him doesn’t? (Matt 24:36)

Do you see how much inference is needed to come to any other conclusion that that they are separate entities, each with their own will?…..because there is not one conclusive, direct statement from either Yahweh or his son that they share deity. How many gods did the Israelites have? (Deut 6:4) Who divided him up into three? Not Jesus, not the apostles….and certainly not Yahweh. (Ex 20:3)

But I see that this doctrine is so ingrained that…..“a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”….
Can someone tell me why Jesus needed to be God in order to pay for the sin of Adam?
How can mere humans kill God? It is not only absurd, but unscriptural. It shows no understanding of the mechanics of redemption.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The only Theos the Jews were considering it blasphemy to be making one's self equal to was YHWH.

But you do understand what blasphemy was to a Jew? If Jesus had claimed to be God, that was blasphemy because Jews knew he could not be God. They never said he was calling himself Yahweh. But making himself out to be the son of God in a very different sense to who they were as “sons of Abraham”.

Their Messiah would be a man sent by Yahweh…and he would establish his kingdom on earth and put the Jews back in their rightful place. Their land had been dominated by gentile powers since their exile in Babylon. So Jewish expectation of their Messiah was more political than spiritual. They had chafed under that domination for centuries and wanted their political Messiah to be their hero…to take their enemies down and reestablish his people in their land……..not someone who seemed meek and humble and who castigated them at every opportunity, exposing their hypocrisy and disobedience to God’s laws. Any wonder they wanted him silenced! (Matt 23:37)

Can the Almighty become a mere human and be killed by mere humans? Is that what you believe? Did the Jews believe that they could kill God? Does anyone believe that wicked humans can kill God?

Not everyone understands about the different ways the article is used in Koine Greek from English, so your argument may sound reasonable, however, the article is in fact used very differently.

If you read Scripture as it is written, understanding the definite article in almost all of the verses where it appears in the Greek Scriptures, there is only one conclusion to draw.….unless you are hooked into an ancient lie that has been perpetrated on Christendom’s members for centuries.
You can’t make John 10:31-36 say something that it never did.

But there's no need for an involved debate on ancient Greek, the simplicity is what I said, they had a problem with Him claiming to be, not "divine" (I said you are gods?), but their problem was Jesus making Himself to be YHWH Himself.

it’s the simplicity that proves that this doctrine is false…..the simple truth is that Jesus is “the son of God”, “sent” as his “servant” to fulfill a mission that the Almighty himself could not carry out because immortals cannot die…..it’s really as simple as that. What complicates things is when it is suggested otherwise and people scramble for verses that try to prove otherwise.

Did Yahweh call the judges in Israel “gods” (theos) meaning that they were all God? Seriously?

 

[Fred J]

Jesus said, "I and the FATHER are one."

"If you have seen Me, you have seen the FATHER."

GOD the FATHER is 'SPIRIT' and 'INVISIBLE', without a 'form'. Yet these doctorates and etc. dispute, that in the book of Revelation, in vision John witnessed GOD the FATHER having a 'hand'. But the Holy Spirit declares, since there's the hand over of the 'scroll' from the invisible FATHER to the Son, Jesus. Therefore John had to witness in the vision, a 'hand' handing over the scroll to Jesus., and write about it, also finally how he got it

Paul says, that to which is in Heaven, is like a shadow here on earth. Also that's why Jesus uses parables pertaining to the things of every day life here on earth. In order to explain the similarity of the Kingdom of GOD is like in Heaven.

Apparently even perceivable by any unlearned., like Peter, Andrew, John and James, for a start.

Shalom from the FATHER because of our Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Johann]

This is so unbelievable.....yes, Christ was on par indeed with his Father who is God Almighty and never took credit for it per scripture, and so he should not as he is not God. There is no logical or scriptural argument here.

And then you add in the concept of divinity here that you apparently do not understand at all. God Almighty is divine. His Son, Jesus had and has divine attributes or qualities. There is a big difference. And then you suddenly announce and take it for granted and speak of Jesus' claims for divinity. HE NEVER DOES now does he! There is no scripture to support your wishes...honesty please...

So if your spiritual life depended on it, do you really think the Jews or anyone today, actually thought he was really God, or really a designated 'god' as in being a special human being speaking for God Almighty, as his Son, who experienced his Spirit within him as he spoke and performed miracles?


You are all over the page Johann, without using any logical or scriptural flow in your response. Only a mixture of pulled out selected verses sprinkles in with your own opinions and desires. And that does not count for the truth now does it?

I can respond to you using the morphology and syntax from both the Hebrew and NT Scriptures but that would be a waste of my time @APAK.


Rabbinical Interpretation of Blasphemy: Jewish religious leaders of the time were deeply protective of God’s sanctity, so claims to divinity (or statements interpreted as such, like Jesus’ use of “I AM” in John 8:58) were viewed as blasphemous. This response reflects not just theological opposition but also a cultural and religious duty to uphold the concept of God as singular and unapproachable in human form.

From now on I will scratch "Divinity" of Jesus and protect the FACT that Jesus is both fully Human and fully God in the flesh And the FACT that members of the Sanhedrin fully recognized Jesus' ἐγώ εἰμι.
Key "I AM" Statements of Jesus
Each "I AM" statement from Jesus either directly or indirectly links Him to the divine name revealed in the Old Testament, identifying Himself as having attributes that traditionally belong only to God.

John 8:58 – "Before Abraham was, I AM (ἐγώ εἰμι)"

Old Testament Parallels:
Exodus 3:14 – "I AM WHO I AM" (Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh): God’s self-identification to Moses at the burning bush. Here, God reveals His eternal nature and independence.

Isaiah 43:10-11 – "You are my witnesses, declares the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he (אֲנִי הוּא, ani hu)." This phrase directly conveys God’s unique identity, later echoed by Jesus.

John 6:35 – "I am the bread of life"

Old Testament Parallels:
Exodus 16:4, 15 – God provides manna from heaven as bread for the Israelites, symbolizing God as the source of life and sustenance.

Deuteronomy 8:3 – "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD." Jesus, as the "bread of life," embodies this divine sustenance.

John 8:12 – "I am the light of the world"

Old Testament Parallels:
Psalm 27:1 – "The LORD is my light and my salvation." Here, light represents God’s guidance and salvation.

Isaiah 42:6-7 – The Messiah is foretold as a "light to the nations," embodying God’s promise to bring illumination and redemption to the world.
John 10:7, 9 – "I am the door of the sheep"

Old Testament Parallels:
Psalm 118:20 – "This is the gate of the LORD; the righteous shall enter through it." Jesus, as the "door," is the entryway to salvation and life.

Ezekiel 34:23 – God declares that He will establish one shepherd over His people, foreshadowing Jesus as the shepherd and door to the fold.
John 10:11 – "I am the good shepherd"

Old Testament Parallels:
Psalm 23:1 – "The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want." Jesus as the "good shepherd" directly parallels God’s role as the shepherd of His people.

Ezekiel 34:15 – "I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep." Here, God promises to shepherd His people, which Jesus claims to fulfill.
John 11:25 – "I am the resurrection and the life"

Old Testament Parallels:
Isaiah 25:8 – God is prophesied to "swallow up death forever."
Daniel 12:2 – There is a promise of resurrection to everlasting life, and Jesus, by calling Himself the resurrection, identifies with this divine power over life and death.

John 14:6 – "I am the way, the truth, and the life"

Old Testament Parallels:
Psalm 16:11 – "You make known to me the path of life." The idea of God being the ultimate path and truth is fully realized in Jesus’ statement.

Proverbs 3:5-6 – "Trust in the LORD... and He will make straight your paths." Here, God is the way to righteousness, a role Jesus takes upon Himself.
John 15:1 – "I am the true vine"

Old Testament Parallels:
Psalm 80:8-16 – Israel is depicted as a vine planted by God, but it fails to bear fruit.

Isaiah 5:1-7 – Israel is described as God’s vineyard that did not produce good fruit. Jesus as the "true vine" claims to be the fulfillment of God’s purpose for His people.

Other Notable "I AM" References and Their Implications
John 18:5-6 – At Jesus' arrest, He responds "I AM" (ἐγώ εἰμι) when asked if He is Jesus of Nazareth. His use of the phrase causes the guards to fall back, implying a powerful connection to God’s own name and authority.

Revelation 1:8, 22:13 – Jesus says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end," echoing Isaiah 44:6 and 48:12, where God identifies Himself as the first and the last, pointing to His eternal nature.

Each of these "I AM" declarations connects Jesus with Yahweh’s self-revelation in the Hebrew Scriptures, presenting Him not merely as a prophet or teacher but as the embodiment of divine attributes and authority. By using "I AM," Jesus invokes the eternal, self-existent nature of God as revealed in the Old Testament, positioning Himself unmistakably as God incarnate.

--and by "divine" I mean GODLY attributes.

As to the snide remark me using "commentary" we all use "commentary" with each other in normal dialogue-USING the Scriptures.

JWS, PETER & CHRIST’S DEITY

In this article I will show readers how to employ the Jehovah’s Witnesses very own (per)version of the Holy Bible to prove that Peter in his inspired epistles identified Jesus Christ as Jehovah God…

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TEXTUAL CRITICISM & CHRIST’S DEITY

Modern New Testament textual critics prefer what is typically known as reasoned eclecticism. This position holds to the belief that the earliest papyri, specifically those manuscripts (MSS) classif…

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J.

 

[Johann]

If a Christian can grasp that truth; that Logos in its various manifestations, whether physical or spiritual, has always been from the beginning (God's Mind), however that which exists out of Logos has a beginning and end - only God (Yahweh) is uncreated and is from everlasting to everlasting...everything else is created, including Christ.

F2F

Sorry-this is pure error, IF you can call error "pure"

Does Being Created Imply Non-Existence?

It may come as a surprise to both believers and heretics/unbelievers alike to discover that even when the Holy Scriptures employ the verbs for creating, this still doesn’t always apply to something or someone that was created from nothing, or to causing something to exist which had no prior existence. Nor does it mean to be created from matter.

For instance, the Jewish writings describe God as creating wisdom before all things:

“I, wisdom, dwell in prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion… The LORD created me (qanani) at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth;” Proverbs 8:12, 22-25 Revised Standard Version (RSV)

“Wisdom was created (ektistai) before all things, and prudent understanding from eternity.” Sirach 1:4 RSV

However, this does not mean that the Lord brought wisdom into existence from nothing. Rather, wisdom came forth from God himself, since it proceeded from his “mouth” so to speak:

“For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;” Proverbs 2:6

“Wisdom will praise herself, and will glory in the midst of her people. In the assembly of the Most High she will open her mouth, and in the presence of his host she will glory: ‘I came forth from the mouth of the Most High, and covered the earth like a mist. I dwelt in high places, and my throne was in a pillar of cloud. Alone I have made the circuit of the vault of heaven and have walked in the depths of the abyss. In the waves of the sea, in the whole earth, and in every people and nation I have gotten a possession. Among all these I sought a resting place; I sought in whose territory I might lodge. Then the Creator of all things gave me a commandment, and the one who created me assigned a place for my tent. And he said, ‘Make your dwelling in Jacob, and in Israel receive your inheritance.’ From eternity, in the beginning, he created me (ektise me), and for eternity I shall not cease to exist.’” Sirach 24:1-9 RSV

As such, wisdom has eternally existed as an essential characteristic of God which the Lord employed to create all things:

“O LORD, how manifold are Your works! In wisdom You have made them all. The earth is full of Your possessions—” Psalm 104:24

“The LORD by wisdom founded the earth; By understanding He established the heavens; By His knowledge the depths were broken up, And clouds drop down the dew.” Proverbs 3:19-20

As such, to be created doesn’t mean to be brought into existence from non-existence.

The Holy Bible on the Eternal Begetting of the Son

Keep in mind the fact that God’s wisdom is said to have been created even though it proceeded forth from the mouth of God before all creation. As I explained, this affirms that wisdom has eternally existed as an intrinsic aspect of God’s own eternal and immutable Being, and therefore refutes the notion that creating must necessarily refer to something being brought into being from non-existence.

This depiction of wisdom’s begetting/creating serves as a helpful illustration to the biblical description and the early church’s understanding of the eternal begetting/generation of the Son of God since God’s wisdom and word are equated:

“O God of my fathers and Lord of mercy, who hast made all things by thy word, and by thy wisdom hast formed man, to have dominion over the creatures thou hast made,” Wisdom of Solomon 9:1-2 RSV

And this is precisely where the NT writings come into play.

According to the Christian Greek Scriptures, Jesus is the eternal Word of God who became a flesh and blood human being:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men… There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him… And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:1-4, 9-10, 14

 

[Johann]

“What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life—and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.” 1 John 1:1-3

“He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.” Revelation 19:13

This depiction of Christ as the Word that became flesh is important since, like wisdom, God’s word is said to proceed from his own metaphorical mouth, since it springs forth from God’s eternal heart:

“Now hear the word of the LORD, O you women, And let your ear receive the word of His mouth; Teach your daughters wailing, And everyone her neighbor a dirge.” Jeremiah 9:20

“But He answered and said, ‘It is written, “Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.”’” Matthew 4:4

“To the chief Musician. Upon Shoshannim. Of the sons of Korah. An instruction;—a song of the Beloved (yadidot). My heart is welling forth/bursting with a good word (rachash libbi dabar tob): I say what I have composed touching the king. My tongue is the pen of a ready writer.” Psalm 45:1

Here’s the Greek rendering of the foregoing Psalm:

“For the end, for alternate [strains by the sons of Kore; for instruction, a Song concerning the Beloved (tou agapetou). My heart has uttered a good word (he kardia mou logon agathon): I declare my works to the king: my tongue is the pen of a quick writer.” Psalm 44:1-2 LXX

What makes this particular Psalm rather intriguing is that this happens to be one of the biblical texts that the early church fathers cited as evidence for their belief in the eternal generation of the Son!

Chapter 7. The Son by Being Designated Word and Wisdom, (According to the Imperfection of Human Thought and Language) Liable to Be Deemed a Mere Attribute. He is Shown to Be a Personal Being

Then, therefore, does the Word also Himself assume His own form and glorious garb, His own sound and vocal utterance, when God says, Let there be light. Genesis 1:3 This is the perfect nativity of the Word, when He proceeds forth from God — formed by Him first to devise and think out all things under the name of Wisdom — The Lord created or formed me as the beginning of His ways; Proverbs 8:22 then afterward begotten, to carry all into effect — When He prepared the heaven, I was present with Him. Thus does He make Him equal to Him: for by proceeding from Himself He became His first-begotten Son, because begotten before all things; Colossians 1:15 and His only-begotten also, because alone begotten of God, in a way peculiar to Himself, from the womb of His own heart — even as the Father Himself testifies: My heart, says He, has emitted my most excellent Word. The Father took pleasure evermore in Him, who equally rejoiced with a reciprocal gladness in the Father’s presence: You are my Son, today have I begotten You; even before the morning star did I beget You. The Son likewise acknowledges the Father, speaking in His own person, under the name of Wisdom: The Lord formed Me as the beginning of His ways, with a view to His own works; before all the hills did He beget Me. For if indeed Wisdom in this passage seems to say that She was created by the Lord with a view to His works, and to accomplish His ways, yet proof is given in another Scripture that all things were made by the Word, and without Him was there nothing made; John 1:3 as, again, in another place (it is said), By His word were the heavens established, and all the powers thereof by His Spirit — that is to say, by the Spirit (or Divine Nature) which was in the Word: thus is it evident that it is one and the same power which is in one place described under the name of Wisdom, and in another passage under the appellation of the Word, which was initiated for the works of God Proverbs 8:22 which strengthened the heavens; by which all things were made, John 1:3 and without which nothing was made. John 1:3 Nor need we dwell any longer on this point, as if it were not the very Word Himself, who is spoken of under the name both of Wisdom and of Reason, and of the entire Divine Soul and Spirit. He became also the Son of God, and was begotten when He proceeded forth from Him.

 

[Johann]

5. That Christ is at once Angel and God

In Genesis, to Abraham: And the Angel of the Lord called him from heaven, and said to him, Abraham, Abraham! And he said, Here am I. And He said, Lay not your hand upon the lad, nor do anything unto him. For now I know that you fear your God, and hast not spared your son, your beloved son, for my sake. Also in the same place, to Jacob: And the Angel of the Lord spoke unto me in dreams, I am God, whom you saw in the place of God where you anointed me a pillar of stone, and vowed to me a vow. Also in Exodus: But God went before them by day indeed in a pillar of cloud, to show them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire. And afterwards, in the same place: And the Angel of God moved forward, which went before the army of the children of Israel. Also in the same place: Lo, I send my Angel before your face, to keep you in the way, that He may lead you into the land which I have prepared for you. Observe Him, and obey Him, and be not disobedient to Him, and He will not be wanting to you. For my Name is in Him. Whence He Himself says in the Gospel: I came in the name of my Father, and you received me not. When another shall come in his own name, him you will receive. And again in the cxviith Psalm: Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. Also in Malachi: My covenant of life and peace was with Levi; and I gave him fear, that he should fear me, that he should go from the face of my name. The law of truth was in his mouth, and unrighteousness was not found in his lips. In the peace of the tongue correcting, he walked with us, and turned many away from unrighteousness. Because the lips of the priests shall keep knowledge, and they shall seek the law at His mouth; for He is the Angel of the Almighty. (Cyprian, Treatise XII (Book 2); bold emphasis mine)

Chapter 13 That the Same Truth is Proved from the Sacred Writings of the New Covenant.

And thus also John, describing the nativity of Christ, says: The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full Of grace and truth… For, moreover, His name is called the Word of God, Revelation 19:13 and not without reason. My heart has emitted a good word; which word He subsequently calls by the name of the King inferentially, I will tell my works to the King. For by Him were made all the works, and without Him was nothing made. John 1:3 Whether says the apostle they be thrones or dominations, or powers, or mights, visible things and invisible, all things subsist by Him. Colossians 1:16 Moreover, this is that word which came unto His own, and His own received Him not. For the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. John 1:10-11 Moreover, this Word was in the beginning with God, and God was the Word. John 1:1 Who then can doubt, when in the last clause it is said, The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, that Christ, whose is the nativity, and because He was made flesh, is man; and because He is the Word of God, who can shrink from declaring without hesitation that He is God, especially when he considers the evangelical Scripture, that it has associated both of these substantial natures into one concord of the nativity of Christ? (Novatian, Treatise Concerning the Trinity; bold emphasis mine)

The reason why this Psalm readily lend itself in support of Christ’s eternal begetting is that not, only does it mention the Word but also because it is specifically addressed to the Beloved, a term which the NT ascribes to Christ as God’s uniquely beloved Son:

“and a voice came out of the heavens: ‘You are My beloved Son (ho Hyios mou, ho agapetos), in You I am well-pleased.’” Mark 1:11

“Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, ‘This is My beloved Son (ho Hyios mou, ho agapetos), listen to Him!’” Mark 9:7

“The Father loves the Son (agapa ton Hyion) and has given all things into His hand.” John 3:35

“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me (hegapesas Me) before the foundation of the world.” John 17:24

“to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved (to Hegapemenoo).” Ephesians 1:6

“For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son (tou Hyiou tes agapes autou),” Colossians 1:16

And just as the Psalmist speaks of the Word springing forth from God’s heart, Jesus is said to be dwelling in the bosom or heart of the Father:

“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father (ho on eis ton kolpon tou Patros), He has explained Him.” John 1:18

“God, unseen until now, is revealed in the Voice, God’s only Son, straight from the Father’s heart.” The Voice (VOICE)

Therefore, a more appropriate biblical passage could not be found than Psalm 45(44):1-2 to affirm the eternal nature of the Son’s begetting, not as an act which brought Christ into existence, but rather as an apt description of Christ’s being an eternal, inseparable, intrinsic “aspect” of God’s own infinite, uncreated Being. I.e., Christ is the eternal Word/Son of God who eternally and fully partakes of the Father’s very own underived essence, an essence of which the Father is the Source. As such, the Father and the Son are inseparable from each other since there never was a time when the Father existed without his Word/Son.

Hence, the early church fathers were absolutely correct when they affirmed that “there never was a time when the Son was not,” since the Son is “begotten, not made,” being “begotten of the Father before all ages.”

Unless noted otherwise, biblical references were taken from the New American Standard Bible (NASB).

THE EARLY CHURCH ON THE ETERNAL BEGETTING OF THE SON

In this very short post, I will cite a few early church fathers and writers who all affirm the uncreated, eternal nature of the Son. Chapter 6. Preserve harmony Since therefore I have, in the …

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J.

 

[Johann]

The reality is that I stand with the Scripture and like usual you launch into your personal attack mode. No different from previous exchanges.

Understanding Satan's mind, right oh! I think you can only speculate.

Much love!

This is a futile exercise @marks and the ad hominems thick as peanut butter.

J.

 

[Johann]

“I have shown you many good deeds from the Father. For which one of them are you going to stone me?” Jn 10:32.

Where is Jesus claiming to be God here?

I'm not here for a back and forth with you-

Jehovah’s Witnesses interpret “divine nature” differently than mainstream Christianity. They believe Jesus is a created being, specifically the archangel Michael, and thus, while divine, He is not equal to God the Father (Jehovah) but is instead a “lesser god.” This view affects their interpretation of passages like John 10:30, where Jesus says, “I and the Father are one,” as they see this as unity in purpose, not essence.

To address this from Scripture, here are some key passages and their implications regarding Jesus’ claim to full divinity, not a subordinate or lesser divinity:

1. John 1:1 – "The Word was God"
In the original Greek, theos (God) without an article follows ho logos (the Word), creating a structure that places the Word in divine identity. Rather than suggesting a lesser divinity, this equates Jesus (the Word) with God in His very essence. The phrasing in Greek emphasizes the Word’s participation in the divine essence without implying that the Word is a different, lesser deity.

Jehovah’s Witnesses argue that "the Word was a god" is more accurate, but this interpretation lacks support from Greek grammar and the context in which John's readers would have understood theos. Early Christians, including John’s audience, would see this as a statement of equality with God.

2. Philippians 2:6 – “Who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God”
Here, the phrase "form of God" (Greek: morphē theou) indicates that Jesus possesses the very nature of God. Additionally, not considering equality with God “robbery” or something to be “grasped” suggests that equality with God was His rightful status. This reinforces Jesus’ full divinity, not a lesser godhood.
For Jehovah’s Witnesses, this verse can be a strong counterpoint, as it implies that Jesus did not have to seize or strive for equality with God—it was already inherent to His nature.

3. Colossians 1:15-19 – “He is the image of the invisible God…in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell.”
While Jehovah’s Witnesses may argue that “firstborn of all creation” implies Jesus is a created being, the term "firstborn" (Greek: prototokos) often means preeminence or supremacy in rank, not creation. Moreover, Paul goes on to say that “in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell” (Colossians 1:19), confirming that Jesus fully embodies God’s nature rather than possessing a partial or lesser divinity.

4. Hebrews 1:3, 6, 8 – “He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of His nature”
Jesus as the “exact imprint” (Greek: charaktēr) of God’s nature indicates He fully shares in God’s divine essence. This verse affirms that Jesus is not merely a reflection or partial representation but fully embodies God’s nature.
In verses 6 and 8, God commands that all angels worship Jesus, and in verse 8, calls Him "God" in a direct address: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever." This title and the act of worship ascribed to Jesus directly counter the idea of Him as a lesser being, since worship belongs exclusively to God.

5. Revelation 22:13 and Isaiah 44:6 – “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end”
Both Jesus (Revelation 22:13) and Jehovah in Isaiah 44:6 use this title. The phrase “Alpha and Omega” represents eternal, uncreated existence, identifying Jesus as co-equal with the Father in His divine nature and timeless existence.
For Jehovah’s Witnesses, accepting that both Jehovah and Jesus claim this title would mean rethinking the view of Jesus as a “lesser” god.

Conclusion
These passages emphasize Jesus’ full divinity and equality with God, contrary to the idea of a "lesser god." Jesus’ claim that “I and the Father are one” in John 10:30 fits this pattern by asserting unity in essence with God, not merely purpose. In light of these scriptures, we see that the Bible affirms Jesus’ divinity as fully equal to the Father, not as a subordinate or created being.

Live with it-but you can't debunk it since the Scriptures is in the Perfect Tense.

J.

 

[face2face]

Sorry-this is pure error, IF you can call error "pure"

Yes you can and you have

Does Being Created Imply Non-Existence?

It may come as a surprise to both believers and heretics/unbelievers alike to discover that even when the Holy Scriptures employ the verbs for creating, this still doesn’t always apply to something or someone that was created from nothing, or to causing something to exist which had no prior existence. Nor does it mean to be created from matter.

For instance, the Jewish writings describe God as creating wisdom before all things:

“I, wisdom, dwell in prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion… The LORD created me (qanani) at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth;” Proverbs 8:12, 22-25 Revised Standard Version (RSV)

“Wisdom was created (ektistai) before all things, and prudent understanding from eternity.” Sirach 1:4 RSV

However, this does not mean that the Lord brought wisdom into existence from nothing. Rather, wisdom came forth from God himself, since it proceeded from his “mouth” so to speak:

“For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;” Proverbs 2:6

“Wisdom will praise herself, and will glory in the midst of her people. In the assembly of the Most High she will open her mouth, and in the presence of his host she will glory: ‘I came forth from the mouth of the Most High, and covered the earth like a mist. I dwelt in high places, and my throne was in a pillar of cloud. Alone I have made the circuit of the vault of heaven and have walked in the depths of the abyss. In the waves of the sea, in the whole earth, and in every people and nation I have gotten a possession. Among all these I sought a resting place; I sought in whose territory I might lodge. Then the Creator of all things gave me a commandment, and the one who created me assigned a place for my tent. And he said, ‘Make your dwelling in Jacob, and in Israel receive your inheritance.’ From eternity, in the beginning, he created me (ektise me), and for eternity I shall not cease to exist.’” Sirach 24:1-9 RSV

As such, wisdom has eternally existed as an essential characteristic of God which the Lord employed to create all things:

“O LORD, how manifold are Your works! In wisdom You have made them all. The earth is full of Your possessions—” Psalm 104:24

“The LORD by wisdom founded the earth; By understanding He established the heavens; By His knowledge the depths were broken up, And clouds drop down the dew.” Proverbs 3:19-20

As such, to be created doesn’t mean to be brought into existence from non-existence.

Johann, wisdom belongs to God and is personified as something to be desired.

Do you believe God is a learning God?

You are not making sense!

The Holy Bible on the Eternal Begetting of the Son

Keep in mind the fact that God’s wisdom is said to have been created even though it proceeded forth from the mouth of God before all creation. As I explained, this affirms that wisdom has eternally existed as an intrinsic aspect of God’s own eternal and immutable Being, and therefore refutes the notion that creating must necessarily refer to something being brought into being from non-existence.

This depiction of wisdom’s begetting/creating serves as a helpful illustration to the biblical description and the early church’s understanding of the eternal begetting/generation of the Son of God since God’s wisdom and word are equated:

“O God of my fathers and Lord of mercy, who hast made all things by thy word, and by thy wisdom hast formed man, to have dominion over the creatures thou hast made,” Wisdom of Solomon 9:1-2 RSV

And this is precisely where the NT writings come into play.

According to the Christian Greek Scriptures, Jesus is the eternal Word of God who became a flesh and blood human being:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men… There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him… And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:1-4, 9-10, 14

I'm gobsmacked Johann with this reasoning.

Have you not read, or listened to anything which has already been written in this thread?

A man, such as the Lord Jesus Christ whose eyes were always open to the surrounding greatness realised his own smallness!

You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28

This is why the Son of God was humble. He discerned the greatness, the perfection, the innate power and wisdom of God his Father, and therefore could feel how small and ineffectual is man.

and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man. John 2:25

How so J? Think about it !

You see Johann - you can't quote these verses with any understanding, because you have a false doctrine which infects your thinking.

So how did Christ learn wisdom?

The Lord GOD has given me (Jesus) the tongue of those who are taught, that I may know how to sustain with a word him who is weary. Morning by morning he (God) awakens; he (God) awakens my (Jesus) ear to hear as those who are taught. Isaiah 50:4

So this wisdom was taught to him by his Father no doubt through the work of the Holy Angels - he was given a mind of quick understanding so while Jesus was the Son of man in relation to his flesh, he had his Fathers discerment of Spiritual things.

This is why it states, he grew in Wisdom and in favour with God and man.

If you want to learn who the real Jesus is, you only need ask! Put away your false teachings and articles and enter the Holy Word.

F2F

 

[Fred J]

You've learnt something but you know nothing at all according to context. You're apparently 'shortsighted', therefore unable to see what is afar and easily 'deceived'.

Yes, as was prophesied

And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: Isaiah 11:3

First of all, His fear of the Lord is not the same as the fear of man in sin and death. The Lord require 'perfection' and the Son became flesh and delivered 'perfection'. He was tempted in every way like every man, yet He did not sin.

And He shall not judge after His sight, neither reprove after His hearing. For His goal is to bring 'Grace' and 'Truth', and not condemnation. Yet on judgement day, He will judge the living and the dead, separating the 'sheep' from the 'goats'.

In fact being a son he feared him who was able to save him from death.

Shortsightedly out of context is true to your partial sight, but not to the 'contextual truth'.

The closeness between Jesus and man is unmistakable to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

That's your babes in Christ claim suckling milk at the moment. For His eyes and ears perfectly 'see' and 'hear', unapproachable by the fallen sight and hearing of man.

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Hebrews 5:7

Yes because He took on flesh in the likeness of sinful man and took upon Himself their transgression and iniquities. Yet served the Lord. perfectly and in the end was wounded for their transgression and bruised for their iniquities.

As a matter of fact, He is the Lamb of GOD who takes away the sins of the world including yours, mind you. Have you done any thing like that, even to a little, for any man?? Did the chosen 12 able to bear the cup that Jesus bear, and did not forsake Him??

For the record, it was not GOD alone able to resurrect Him from the dead. Jesus Himself said this;

John 10:
17. Therefore doth My FATHER love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again.
18. No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to take it again.

John 17:
4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which THOU gavest Me to do.
5. And now, O FATHER, glorify THOU Me with THINE OWN SELF with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

So, stop making you own fantasy gospel, or witness ones made by unlearned and unstable men. Ones who 'twist' the original Gospel doctrine and even the scripture to their own 'destruction'.

Peace in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[face2face]

I'm not here for a back and forth with you-

You see that's your problem...if you stopped for a moment and actually listened to what is being shown you you would allow the germ of truth to enter that thick skull of yours!

Jehovah’s Witnesses interpret “divine nature” differently than mainstream Christianity. They believe Jesus is a created being, specifically the archangel Michael, and thus, while divine, He is not equal to God the Father (Jehovah) but is instead a “lesser god.”

Jesus has never been a god-man, a god of any sort as he was made a little lower than the angels and learned obedience through suffering and God highly exalted him to a position not previously held!

This view affects their interpretation of passages like John 10:30, where Jesus says, “I and the Father are one,” as they see this as unity in purpose, not essence.

One in mind and purpose!

To address this from Scripture, here are some key passages and their implications regarding Jesus’ claim to full divinity, not a subordinate or lesser divinity:

1. John 1:1 – "The Word was God"
In the original Greek, theos (God) without an article follows ho logos (the Word), creating a structure that places the Word in divine identity. Rather than suggesting a lesser divinity, this equates Jesus (the Word) with God in His very essence. The phrasing in Greek emphasizes the Word’s participation in the divine essence without implying that the Word is a different, lesser deity.

Jesus is the work of God's Logos!

Jehovah’s Witnesses argue that "the Word was a god" is more accurate, but this interpretation lacks support from Greek grammar and the context in which John's readers would have understood theos. Early Christians, including John’s audience, would see this as a statement of equality with God.

No - Logos is God creative Power in thought and reason and expressed as told you by the writer of Hebrews 1

1:2 in these last days he (God) has spoken to us in a son, whom he (God) appointed heir of all things, and through whom he created the world Heb 1:2.

Christ was in the Mind of God and He did everything in this creation for him, on behalf of him and in him and everything that has been done was for Christs sake that God would be glorified through a Son.

2. Philippians 2:6 – “Who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God”

Yes Son to Servant NOT God to servant!

Get the context right Johann and dont twist it to fit your own divices!

Here, the phrase "form of God" (Greek: morphē theou) indicates that Jesus possesses the very nature of God.

Come on J you know better! Again you are forcing foreign teaching on the Word.

Additionally, not considering equality with God “robbery” or something to be “grasped” suggests that equality with God was His rightful status. This reinforces Jesus’ full divinity, not a lesser godhood.

For Jehovah’s Witnesses, this verse can be a strong counterpoint, as it implies that Jesus did not have to seize or strive for equality with God—it was already inherent to His nature.

3. Colossians 1:15-19 – “He is the image of the invisible God…in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell.”
While Jehovah’s Witnesses may argue that “firstborn of all creation” implies Jesus is a created being, the term "firstborn" (Greek: prototokos) often means preeminence or supremacy in rank, not creation. Moreover, Paul goes on to say that “in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell” (Colossians 1:19), confirming that Jesus fully embodies God’s nature rather than possessing a partial or lesser divinity.

4. Hebrews 1:3, 6, 8 – “He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of His nature”
Jesus as the “exact imprint” (Greek: charaktēr) of God’s nature indicates He fully shares in God’s divine essence. This verse affirms that Jesus is not merely a reflection or partial representation but fully embodies God’s nature.
In verses 6 and 8, God commands that all angels worship Jesus, and in verse 8, calls Him "God" in a direct address: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever." This title and the act of worship ascribed to Jesus directly counter the idea of Him as a lesser being, since worship belongs exclusively to God.

5. Revelation 22:13 and Isaiah 44:6 – “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end”
Both Jesus (Revelation 22:13) and Jehovah in Isaiah 44:6 use this title. The phrase “Alpha and Omega” represents eternal, uncreated existence, identifying Jesus as co-equal with the Father in His divine nature and timeless existence.
For Jehovah’s Witnesses, accepting that both Jehovah and Jesus claim this title would mean rethinking the view of Jesus as a “lesser” god.

Conclusion
These passages emphasize Jesus’ full divinity and equality with God, contrary to the idea of a "lesser god." Jesus’ claim that “I and the Father are one” in John 10:30 fits this pattern by asserting unity in essence with God, not merely purpose. In light of these scriptures, we see that the Bible affirms Jesus’ divinity as fully equal to the Father, not as a subordinate or created being.

Live with it-but you can't debunk it since the Scriptures is in the Perfect Tense.

J.

Every passage above is manipulated to force your T doctrine but you know deep down in your mind you can't show the formula.

Can you?

Be honest!

How many times did Jesus die to sin? (seventh time)

F2F

 

[face2face]

You've learnt something but you know nothing at all according to context. You're apparently 'shortsighted', therefore unable to see what is afar and easily 'deceived'.

First of all, His fear of the Lord is not the same as the fear of man in sin and death. The Lord require 'perfection' and the Son became flesh and delivered 'perfection'. He was tempted in every way like every man, yet He did not sin.

Could he sin Fred?

If you say yes, then he had sins flesh

If you say no, you believe is a puppet show!

And He shall not judge after His sight, neither reprove after His hearing. For His goal is to bring 'Grace' and 'Truth', and not condemnation. Yet on judgement day, He will judge the living and the dead, separating the 'sheep' from the 'goats'.

True.

Shortsightedly out of context is true to your partial sight, but not to the 'contextual truth'.

That's your babes in Christ claim suckling milk at the moment. For His eyes and ears perfectly 'see' and 'hear', unapproachable by the fallen sight and hearing of man.

Yes because He took on flesh in the likeness of sinful man and took upon Himself their transgression and iniquities. Yet served the Lord. perfectly and in the end was wounded for their transgression and bruised for their iniquities.

How did God condemn sin Fred? Read Romans 8:1-3

As a matter of fact, He is the Lamb of GOD who takes away the sins of this world, mind you. Have you done any thing like that, even to a little, to any man??

The Son of Man did!

For the record, it was not GOD alone able to resurrect Him from the dead. Jesus Himself said this;

John 10:
17. Therefore doth My FATHER love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again.
18. No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to take it again.

John 17:
4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which THOU gavest Me to do.
5. And now, O FATHER, glorify THOU Me with THINE OWN SELF with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Both verses show God promised His Son "Life" and when God raised him he was given it!

BUT Fred it was God his Father who raised him and it was his Fathers Glory which gave him life.

F2F

 

[face2face]

John 10:
17. Therefore doth My FATHER love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again.
18. No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to take it again.

John 17:
4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which THOU gavest Me to do.
5. And now, O FATHER, glorify THOU Me with THINE OWN SELF with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

"I can of mine own self do nothing . . ." (John 5:30).

Try to show an understanding to these passages which you are forcing notions upon!

How could Jesus say "I have power to take it up again?"

Explain Fred.

Here let me help you...

Jesus had authority to take his life again because as he himself said: "This commandment have I received of my Father". (v18). It is not, therefore, Jesus who does something for himself.

In this, you know not the Lord Jesus Christ or his teaching.

F2F

 

[Fred J]

Could he sin Fred?

If you say yes, then he had sins flesh

If you say no, you believe is a puppet show!



True.



How did God condemn sin Fred? Read Romans 8:1-3



The Son of Man did!


Both verses show God promised His Son "Life" and when God raised him he was given it!

BUT Fred it was God his Father who raised him and it was his Fathers Glory which gave him life.

F2F

The discussion have taken a turn and heading nowhere, and is like, he said, she said, hence 'sarcasm' the fruit from the 'shortsighted'.

True born again and disciple by the Holy Bible doctrine and given wisdom to the context readers able to distinguish between the 'spirit of truth' and 'spirit of error'.

 

[face2face]

John 17:
4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which THOU gavest Me to do.
5. And now, O FATHER, glorify THOU Me with THINE OWN SELF with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Fred,

Lets adopt your inferred reasoning here

If you were preapred for Glory (past tense) did you pre-exist?

And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory
Ro 9:23.

He is the one who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not based on our works but on his own purpose and grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus before time began 2 Ti 1:8–9.

Does God not "call those things which be not as though they were" Rom 4:17

The Jews struggled with this same issue as they took the Lord literally and got themselves into a real mess in John 8.

You are doing the same thing

F2F

 

[face2face]

The discussion have taken a turn and heading nowhere, and is like, he said, she said, hence 'sarcasm' the fruit from the 'shortsighted'.

True born again and disciple by the Holy Bible doctrine and given wisdom to the context readers able to distinguish between the 'spirit of truth' and 'spirit of error'.

Can you answer the question?

Could the Lord sin?

Yes or no?

 

[Johann]

Yes Son to Servant NOT God to servant!

Get the context right Johann and dont twist it to fit your own divices!

Another one twisting my words-you’re on the losing end face-to-face, F2F.


Being (huparchōn). Rather, “existing,” present active participle of huparchō. In the form of God (en morphēi theou). Morphē means the essential attributes as shown in the form.

In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ.

A prize (harpagmon). Predicate accusative with hēgēsato. Originally words in ̇mos signified the act, not the result (̇ma). The few examples of harpagmos (Plutarch, etc.) allow it to be understood as equivalent to harpagma, like baptismos and baptisma. That is to say Paul means a prize to be held on to rather than something to be won (“robbery”).

To be on an equality with God (to einai isa theoi). Accusative articular infinitive object of hēgēsato, “the being equal with God” (associative instrumental case theōi after isa). Isa is adverbial use of neuter plural with einai as in Rev_21:16.

Emptied himself (heauton ekenōse). First aorist active indicative of kenoō, old verb from kenos, empty. Of what did Christ empty himself? Not of his divine nature. That was impossible.

He continued to be the Son of God. There has arisen a great controversy on this word, a Kenosis doctrine. Undoubtedly Christ gave up his environment of glory. He took upon himself limitations of place (space) and of knowledge and of power, though still on earth retaining more of these than any mere man. It is here that men should show restraint and modesty, though it is hard to believe that Jesus limited himself by error of knowledge and certainly not by error of conduct. He was without sin, though tempted as we are. “He stripped himself of the insignia of majesty” (Lightfoot).
Robertson.


in the form. The essential form, including all the qualities which can be made visible to the eye. Gr. morphē (S# G3444). Php_2:7 g. Exo_39:27, Lev_16:23, +*Isa_7:14; Isa_8:8; +*Isa_9:6, +*Jer_23:6, Dan_7:13, +*Mic_5:2, +*Mat_1:23; Mat_17:2, Mar_9:2; Mar_16:12 g. *Joh_1:2; *Joh_1:18; **Joh_17:5, +*Rom_9:5, *+2Co_4:4; 2Co_8:9, +*Col_1:15; +*Col_1:16, *1Ti_1:17; *1Ti_3:16, *Tit_2:13, *Heb_1:3; *Heb_1:6; *Heb_1:8; +*Heb_13:8.
of God. This is a clear assertion on Paul’s part of the deity of Christ. Daniel Waterland gets to the crux of the controversy by setting forth two series of texts. The first series includes Isa_43:10; Isa_44:8; Isa_45:5; Isa_46:9, which declare that God is one, and to him none can be likened.

The second series includes Joh_1:1, Rom_9:5, Php_2:6, Heb_1:3; Heb_1:8, which declare that Jesus Christ is God. The consequences of the Arian scheme are that if the texts of Isaiah exclude the Son, he is altogether excluded, and is no God at all.

He cannot, upon Arian principles, be the same God, because he is not the same Person: he cannot be another God, because excluded by the Isaiah texts.

If, therefore he be neither the same God, nor another God, it must follow, that he is no God. This is the difficulty which lies against the Arian scheme, and which Arians have not sufficiently attended to.

It will NOT do to make Jesus Christ "a god" in a lesser sense, reserving only to the Father the title of supreme God, for neither Isaiah, nor the first commandment, allow for such a distinction.

If they had allowed such a distinction, then in what sense would the worship of Baal and Ashteroth be considered idolatry, if they were merely looked upon as inferior deities, and served with a subordinate worship? The Old Testament texts cannot mean that there is merely no other Supreme God; but absolutely no other: and therefore our blessed Lord must either be included and comprehended in the one Supreme God of Israel, or be entirely excluded with the other pretended or nominal deities.

In no case have the Arians proved—what must be proved if their understanding is to be received as correct—that texts which designate God the Father as the "only true God" (Joh_17:3) or "one God" (1Co_8:6) are meant to teach that the Son is absolutely excluded also from such designations, just as the Son is emphatically designated one Lord (Eph_4:5) without design to exclude the Father from being Lord also (see Daniel Waterland, Works, vol. 1, pp. 275-280).

Waterland observes that the tactics of Arians in his day were to industriously run from the point, misrepresent our sense, and artfully conceal their own—characteristics which have not changed from his day to ours.

Jesus must either be entirely excluded by the Isaiah texts, or not at all: and if he be not excluded, he is comprehended in the one Supreme God, and is one with him.

Arians produce texts to show that the Father singly is the Supreme God, and that Christ is excluded from being the Supreme God: but I insist upon it, that you misunderstand those texts; because the interpretation you give of them is not reconcilable with other texts; and because it leads to such absurdities, as are too shocking even for yourself to admit. In short, either you prove too much, or you prove nothing (Waterland, vol 1, p. 278, 281).

Subsisting in the form of God proves his nature and essence to be divine. John Daille states "As then the Lord Jesus, before He took our flesh, was in the form of God, it necessarily follows that He was truly God, no one being able to have the glory of God but He who had His nature also.

And what the apostle adds, that He was "equal with God," clearly also determines the same thing; it being evident that if the Son were a creature, He could not be equal to God; every creature being of necessity infinitely below the nature, power, and majesty of the Creator" (Comm. on Philippians, Sermon 9, pp. 91, 92). Isa_43:10; Isa_44:8; Isa_45:5; Isa_46:9, Joh_1:1, Rom_9:5, Heb_1:3; Heb_1:8.

J.

 

[face2face]

The discussion have taken a turn and heading nowhere, and is like, he said, she said, hence 'sarcasm' the fruit from the 'shortsighted'.

True born again and disciple by the Holy Bible doctrine and given wisdom to the context readers able to distinguish between the 'spirit of truth' and 'spirit of error'.

No sarcasm in that post Fred, this is a reach to exit the discussion becuase you don't want to answer the question.

If you had a spirit of truth you would understand the trua answer to that question.

Hebrews 4:14-15Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Do you believe his life was a facade?
Do you believe it was impossible for him to sin?

What say you?