The time, times, and a half does not include the season and time, which is the thousand years.

[Marty fox]

I think those verses are about the resurrection of Jesus and the Old Testament saints.

Sorry but I don't understand why you think that It says that Jesus approached the Father not Jesus and the saints. Jesus didn't go to heaven until 40 or so days after the OT saints rose as shown in Matthew 27

 

[grafted branch]

I don't see where the beast is reigning upon earth after the resurection .

As I said in an earlier post …
Daniel 7:26 says the saints take away his dominion to consume and destroy it unto the end, this takes place after the judgment sits. This is the same judgment that was set in Daniel 7:10.

Daniel 7:11 I beheld till the beast was destroyed and given to the burning flame. The word “till” is referring to the time period described in Daniel 7:26.

 

[tailgator]

Not all of Daniel 11 is about the time of the end ….

Daniel 11​

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King James Version​

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11 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.
2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

The time of the end is in Daniel 11:40.-12:2.

Everything before 11:40 are events leading up to the time of the end.

So where do you see the entire world being engulfed in fire at the time of the dnd in Daniel 11,?

I see the king of the north engulfing the middle east and North Africa in fire but I don't see the king of the north engulfing anything south of Egypt ,nor do I see him engulfing anything in the north.

All I see him engulfing are the ten kings which come against his armed forces in Israel and the land of Israel itself.

 

[tailgator]

As I said in an earlier post …
Daniel 7:26 says the saints take away his dominion to consume and destroy it unto the end, this takes place after the judgment sits. This is the same judgment that was set in Daniel 7:10.

Daniel 7:11 I beheld till the beast was destroyed and given to the burning flame. The word “till” is referring to the time period described in Daniel 7:26.

The beast has not been given to the burning flame.Hes in good health ruling his kingdom as we speak.

 

[grafted branch]

The beast has not been given to the burning flame.Hes in good health ruling his kingdom as we speak.

Let me ask you this, are you currently in the kingdom of God or not?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But you plainly said when Jesus is coming that he is actually ascending when he is coming.

So where is he ascending to when he comes?

What in the world are you talking about? Are you somehow not aware that Jesus ascended to heaven long ago 40 days after His resurrection? You're acting like you're not even aware of that. Do you think it's not possible that there would be any prophecy about that?

 

[Marty fox]

While I do agree with you here, I certainly don't agree with your interpretation of Matthew 24:30 as well.

Well Peter did look at what he said in Acts chapter 2

14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[c]

Then what Jesus said

Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory

Peter used the very same words as Jesus did and said this was happening in those days. The signs in the sun, moon and stars are a symbolic sign of judgement.

Do you notice in verse 30 its the sign of the Son of man and not the Son of man that appears?

The sign of the Son of man is the judgement of Jerusalem happening when Jesus said it would happen proving without a doubt that He is God

 

[tailgator]

Let me ask you this, are you currently in the kingdom of God or not?

I have received the holy spirit of that is the question you are attempting to put forth without asking.

I will have to travel east to arrive in the kingdom of heaven to take my place at the feast.

Mathew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.


Will you be traveling east or west or will you remain out?

 

[tailgator]

What in the world are you talking about? Are you somehow not aware that Jesus ascended to heaven long ago 40 days after His resurrection? You're acting like you're not even aware of that. Do you think it's not possible that there would be any prophecy about that?

You said when Jesus is coming that he is actually ascending into heaven.

So when he comes,where do you believe he is ascending too?

 

[grafted branch]

I have received the holy spirit of that is the question you are attempting to put forth without asking.

I will have to travel east to arrive in the kingdom of heaven to take my place at the feast.

Mathew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.


Will you be traveling east or west or will you remain out?

Ok, I’m certainly not trying to make a case for whether a person is saved or not, that is completely up to Christ.

If you aren’t currently in the kingdom of God then that helps me understand why you have the view you do. I am currently in the kingdom of God and our differences on whether we are or aren’t in the kingdom is probably at the root of our differences.

I would prefer not to go any further on this so let’s just agree to disagree here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No doubt there are numerous interpreters that agree with your interpretation of verse 12. I do not dispute that. The question is, does the context support that? It for sure doesn't support it if verses 9-11 the context is the GWTJ. Nor does it support it if verses 9-11 the context is the beginning of the millennium.

I could say the same thing regarding your interpretation of verses 13 and 14 using your same logic. Why is it that you never realize that when you use the same logic you use to interpret one verse or passage to interpret another verse or passage it ends up contradicting your doctrine? Why do verses 13 and 14 have to be parenthetical but not verse 12? You're not doing anything to explain that.

You do take verses 9-11 to be meaning the GWTJ, right? What I argue below is assuming if verses 9-11 are pertaining to the GWTJ.

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Yes, there are obvious similarities between Daniel 7:9-11 and Revelation 20:11-15, such as it referencing the throne and the books being opened just like we also see in Revelation 20:11-15.

For the sake of argument, let's assume verses 9-11 are involving the GWTJ. Don't you find it odd if it is involving the GWTJ, that we are then told in verse 12, As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time, rather than saying something like the following instead?

As concerning the rest of the beasts, they too were given to the burning flame at that time.

No, because the four beasts represent historical world kingdoms/empires (Daniel 7:23). So, the rest of the beasts (first 3 beast kingdoms) would not even still exist by the time the fourth beast was destroyed. So, verse 12 is parenthetical and indicates that the first 3 beasts still existed in some form for awhile after they were no longer in power. I believe the rest of the beasts refer to the Babylonian, Media-Persian and Greek empires.

If you want to be taken seriously about this, then tell me your understanding of the four beasts. You know they represent kingdoms, right? It says so in Daniel 7:23. So, what kingdoms do you think they represent?

Why doesn't it say that if verses 9-11 are meaning the GWTJ? Who would even care what allegedly happened to the rest of some other beasts earlier in history?

I think a lot of people would wonder what happened to them. Verses 9-11 only refer to the fourth beast. How can you think that people would not wonder about what happened to the rest of the beasts?

No, we want to what happens to them now, meaning during the event when the beast is given to the burning flame. We don't care what happened to the rest of some other beasts thousand of years earlier that were no longer present during when the beast pertaining to verse 11 is present.

Speak for yourself. Why should I take anything you say seriously about this when you don't even indicate what your understanding is of the four beasts? Until you do that I have no reason to pay any attention to anything you say about this.

We do not need to know that during the events involving the GWTJ. The end follows the GTWJ, not something pertaining to the rest of some other beasts and what allegedly became of them thousands of years earlier. Nobody cares. It is not relevant at this point. This assuming verses 9-11 are involving the GWTJ.

Obviously, they are not involving the GWTJ, because if they were verse 12 wouldn't be saying what it does, it would be saying they too were given to the burning flame when the beast in verse 11 is given to it. Except it doesn't say that. It instead says, instead of they too being given to the burning flame when the beast in verse 11 is, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Verse 12 only makes sense if there is still an era of time to fulfill after verse 11 has been fulfilled. If verse 11 is meaning the GWTJ there is no era of time still needing to be fulfilled after verse 11 is fulfilled.

Therefore, in light of verse 12 verse 11 can't be involving the GWTJ. But it can certainly be involving the beginning of the millennium, though. Except you can't have it meaning that, because if it does, well there goes Amil out the window then since verse 11 is obviously meaning Revelation 19:20. No wonder you need to interpret verse 12 the way you do. That's the only way you can give the impression that your doctrine of Amil is supposedly still a valid view, still a valid option.

You crack me up. There are many holes in your premil doctrine, as you've been shown many times, and here you are acting like I have to change scripture to keep Amil valid. Hilarious!

Our approaches to interpreting scripture couldn't be more different. Your doctrine's foundation is on some of the most difficult to interpret passages in all of scripture found in highly symbolic books like Zechariah, Daniel and Revelation. My doctrine, on the other hand, is based primarily on clear, straightforward, literal passages of scripture such as Matthew 24:35-39, Matthew 28:16-18, John 5:28-29, Ephesians 1:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:3-13.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You said when Jesus is coming that he is actually ascending into heaven.

So when he comes,where do you believe he is ascending too?

Are you even making any effort whatsoever to understand what I'm saying? It doesn't seem like it. You understand that Jesus ascended to heaven long ago after His resurrection, right? Yes or no? And Acts 1:9-11 says in the future He will descend from heaven in the same manner as He ascended there. Do you understand those are two different events? He ascended to heaven long ago already. Do you agree or not? I'm starting to wonder if you understand anything from scripture at all.

I believe Daniel 7:13-14 refers only to His ascension TO heaven that occurred long ago and not to His future second coming FROM heaven. Can you understand what I'm saying? If not, then this discussion needs to end because it would mean there's nothing I can do to get you to understand.

 

[tailgator]

Ok, I’m certainly not trying to make a case for whether a person is saved or not, that is completely up to Christ.

If you aren’t currently in the kingdom of God then that helps me understand why you have the view you do. I am currently in the kingdom of God and our differences on whether we are or aren’t in the kingdom is probably at the root of our differences.

I would prefer not to go any further on this so let’s just agree to disagree here.

Well,let's hope you don't get cast into the furnace along with the beast and false prophet.
There's alot of tares in the kingdom of heaven that will be burned.Satan planted them .

Mathew 13:41-42
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[tailgator]

Are you even making any effort whatsoever to understand what I'm saying? It doesn't seem like it. You understand that Jesus ascended to heaven long ago after His resurrection, right? Yes or no? And Acts 1:9-11 says in the future He will descend from heaven in the same manner as He ascended there. Do you understand those are two different events? He ascended to heaven long ago already. Do you agree or not? I'm starting to wonder if you understand anything from scripture at all.

I believe Daniel 7:13-14 refers only to His ascension TO heaven that occurred long ago and not to His future second coming FROM heaven. Can you understand what I'm saying? If not, then this discussion needs to end because it would mean there's nothing I can do to get you to understand.

I understand you believe the thrones were all cast down in 33 AD and that after the thrines were all cast down that Jesus was seen coming which you said means he is ascending.
I personally have never heard anyone say the thrones were cast down already or that Jesus came. Only you

 

[grafted branch]

Well,let's hope you don't get cast into the furnace along with the beast and false prophet.
There's alot of tares in the kingdom of heaven that will be burned.Satan planted them .

Mathew 13:41-42
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

So how are you interpreting John 3:5-6?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

If Matthew 13:41-42 is the removal of those who which do iniquity out of the kingdom and John 3:5 says only people who are born again can enter the kingdom, then do we have to conclude that a believer that commits a sin is removed from the kingdom?

 

[tailgator]

So how are you interpreting John 3:5-6?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

If Matthew 13:41-42 is the removal of those who which do iniquity out of the kingdom and John 3:5 says only people who are born again can enter the kingdom, then do we have to conclude that a believer that commits a sin is removed from the kingdom?

Jesus has not received his kingdom yet.
When he comes,everyone in his kingdom who has rejected him will be cast out of his kingdom.

Mathew 8:11-12
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Jesus is talking about his kingdom here.The subjects being cast out of his kingdom do not belong to him.They are not born again,therefore they are cast out.

You act as though you have never heard of these things before.


The beast and the false prophet are cast into the furnace then too.

Mathew 13:41-42
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

So where do you see the entire world being engulfed in fire at the time of the dnd in Daniel 11,?

Just because you don’t see ALL end time prophecy in one chapter of the Bible that does not mean it cancels out other parts of the Bible that prove it does happen.

 

[grafted branch]

Jesus has not received his kingdom yet.
When he comes,everyone in his kingdom who has rejected him will be cast out of his kingdom.

Mathew 8:11-12
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Jesus is talking about his kingdom here.The subjects being cast out of his kingdom do not belong to him.They are not born again,therefore they are cast out.

You act as though you have never heard of these things before.


The beast and the false prophet are cast into the furnace then too.

Mathew 13:41-42
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Considering the point I made, it doesn’t matter whether or not Jesus received the kingdom. Jesus said unless a person is born again they can’t enter the kingdom of God.

You have unsaved people entering the kingdom of God, right?

 

[tailgator]

Considering the point I made, it doesn’t matter whether or not Jesus received the kingdom. Jesus said unless a person is born again they can’t enter the kingdom of God.

You have unsaved people entering the kingdom of God, right?

They are already there before the kingdom.of God is come.

 

[tailgator]

Just because you don’t see ALL end time prophecy in one chapter of the Bible that does not mean it cancels out other parts of the Bible that prove it does happen.

Sure I see it.
I understand what kingdom is being destroyed at the time of Christs coming and it's not the entire world .
The other kingdoms are not destroyed at Christs coming.Thats why you end up having the kingdoms outside the kingdom of the saints surrounding the saints in revelation 20.
Of course God said he would cause this in the old testament .Both wars.



This is the war of Armageddon when the prostitute,beast and false prophet are consumed.

25 The Lord shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.




This is the war of Gog Magog 1000 years later when all other nations are consumed after coming against the saints.


7 The Lord shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.