The time, times, and a half does not include the season and time, which is the thousand years.

[CTK]

I do believe it was Christ at his first coming.

I’ve not considered that view but I will look into it.

I don’t agree with this, I believe the second coming was the resurrection of Jesus and Jesus has conquered all.

I don’t agree with that part but I would like to get your thoughts on what mingling themselves with he seed of men means.

Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Ok, here is verse 2:42..



Daniel 2:42

42And as the toes of the feet were part iron, and part clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly fragile.

There are a few important points to mention before we unpack this very enigmatic verse. First, Daniel is revealing the material composition of the toes within the feet of pagan Rome (verse 33): they were partly iron and partly clay, in that order. Secondly, Nebuchadnezzar did not see the toes in his dream sequence, meaning Daniel is now revealing their makeup within his interpretation sequence. Not only is he clarifying the composition of the toes before the stone struck the feet of the fourth kingdom, but he is also providing additional information: the toes were partly strong and partly fragile.

In verse 42, Daniel compares the toes within pagan Rome to the kingdom mentioned in the same verse. This kingdom must represent the "divided kingdom" of Papal Rome; otherwise, Daniel would be comparing the toes in pagan Rome to themselves. Consequently, verse 42 tells us that the divided kingdom of Papal Rome is partly strong and partly fragile, just like the toes in pagan Rome. This is significant because the toes within the feet of pagan Rome had little movement or freedom within the pagan Roman Empire. Although this was a confined and controlled environment, it must have also prevented the toes from being broken off. The toes in pagan Rome were partly strong and partly fragile, while the feet were not.

For the first few centuries after the cross, the toes would no longer be found encased within the nation of pagan Rome. In fact, these ten toes will come to be symbolized as the ten horns in Chapter 7. After the cross, they will be on the outside of the fourth kingdom of pagan Rome and moving to the top of the fourth kingdom beast of Papal Rome. But later, within the divided kingdom of Papal Rome, the strength and fragility of the toes will be seen. The identity of these ten toes or the ten horns will be revealed in Chapter 7; however, what is important to note is that these ten toes or these ten horns were in existence both before and after the cross. And they will be broken off.

 

[CTK]

I do believe it was Christ at his first coming.

I’ve not considered that view but I will look into it.

I don’t agree with this, I believe the second coming was the resurrection of Jesus and Jesus has conquered all.

I don’t agree with that part but I would like to get your thoughts on what mingling themselves with he seed of men means.

Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Ok, here is verse 2:43.

Daniel 2:43

43And whereas thou saw iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

In verse 43, Daniel presents a third comparison between two distinct groups within the fourth kingdom.

The first group is referred to simply as "they," while the second group is termed "the seed of men." To understand the comparison, it is crucial to identify these groups. The verse is structured with five key elements:

43a: "As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay."

43b: "They will mingle."

43c: "With the seed of men."

43d: "But they will not adhere to one another."

43e: "Just as iron does not mix with clay."

43a

This phrase recalls the imagery of the fourth kingdom's composition as depicted in Nebuchadnezzar's dream sequence (verse 33). The iron represents the strength and military might of pagan Rome, while the ceramic clay symbolizes its weaker and more fragile aspects. This mixed nature of iron and clay highlights the inherent instability and division within the feet (toes) of the kingdom, even before the stone strikes the feet in the vision. The specific order—iron first, followed by ceramic clay—indicates that the kingdom initially possesses significant strength (iron) but also has within it an internal fragility (ceramic clay) element.

43b

In this phrase, "they" refers to the entities within the divided kingdom of Papal Rome. Since 43a refers to pagan Rome, "they" in 43b must represent the powers and factions within the post-cross period of the fourth kingdom, which includes Papal Rome. Therefore, Daniel is drawing a comparison between Papal Rome and another group, identified as the "seed of men."

To understand this comparison fully, we must delve into the identities involved. The phrase "they will mingle" suggests an attempt at integration or union between two distinct groups. Given the context, these groups are:

Pagan and Papal Rome - Represents the iron and the clay, in that order, or the clay and the iron, in that order after the demise of pagan Rome.

The early Jewish/Christian church or the later Gentile/Christian church, later to transition to the Papal church, will include or maintain the strength and influence of the pagan Roman Empire.

The Seed of Men - Likely symbolizing the general populace or other non-ecclesiastical powers that either pagan or Papal Rome will interact with or tries to exert influence over, however, this will be further developed in 43C.

This mingling indicates that both pagan and Papal Rome will attempt to integrate or align with another, however, as the subsequent phrases will reveal, this union will not be successful or cohesive.

43c

In verse 43c, Daniel introduces the phrase "the seed of men." While many of the terms and imagery in Daniel are unique to his visions, this particular phrase has significant roots in earlier Scriptures, especially in the context of the Abrahamic Covenant. In Genesis 12, God promises Abraham that He will make him a great nation, stating, "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you." This covenant establishes that God's blessings and salvation would come through Abraham's descendants, the Jews. By understanding this covenantal context, we can interpret "the seed of men" in Daniel 2:43c as referring to the Jewish people.

The Messiah, who comes from the house of Judah, one of the twelve tribes of Jacob, is central to this lineage. Therefore, when Daniel uses the term "the seed of men," he is pointing to the Jews. Given this interpretation, verse 43c can be understood as highlighting the interaction between either the Gentile/Christian church or Papal Rome and the Jewish people (seed of men). The comparison Daniel makes is significant, as it contrasts the divided kingdom of Papal Rome with the enduring lineage and faith of the Jews (those who have been identified as pottery clay after the cross and have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior).

43d and 43E

Daniel 2:43 discusses the mingling of two groups within the fourth kingdoms of the post-cross period.

Despite their interaction, they do not adhere to one another, illustrating their inherent incompatibility. Here is a summary of verse 2:43:

Daniel tells us that these two groups will mingle but will not fully unite. They will come into contact and coexist, but they remain fundamentally different, unable to bond as iron and clay cannot bond. They exist side by side, yet their union is superficial, lacking true cohesion. He reveals a significant development after the crucifixion. The early Jewish/Christian church, composed of potter’s clay and iron (in that order, from verse 41a), experienced rapid growth across the Roman Empire. Early Jewish/Christian leaders like Paul, Peter, and John successfully spread the Good News among the Gentiles. As a result, Gentiles joined the church in large numbers, eventually becoming a dominant influence and shaping its structure along Roman lines. This shift deeply affected the "seed of men," referring to the Jewish believers of Jesus.

Jewish followers of Jesus, initially part of this burgeoning church, began to witness changes that challenged their faith. Constantine's decree to change the Sabbath from the seventh day to the first day marked a significant departure from traditional Jewish practices. The church began incorporating various pagan rituals and idols, which were foreign to Jewish worship. Consequently, Jewish Christians, even those within the church, faced persecution and rejection. They struggled to maintain their faith amidst these changes, leading to division. The Jews, symbolized as the "seed of men," mingled with the church (now comprised of potter’s clay and iron, from verse 41a), but they could not adhere to one another due to these profound differences. The mixture of God's Word with pagan practices made it difficult for them to continue worshiping within this church.

After the fall of pagan Rome, the church came under the control of the papacy, transforming into Papal Rome. Jews who could not accept the altered teachings and practices of this new church returned to their pre-cross Jewish faith, further illustrating the separation and lack of cohesion. This metaphor underscores the persistent divisions and the eventual failure of Papal Rome to fully integrate with or control the “seed of men.” This inability to bond and continue as one church body did not occur overnight.

There was a continued and noticeable shift during the 400 years after the cross until the church was appropriated by the little horn.

 

[CTK]

I do believe it was Christ at his first coming.

I’ve not considered that view but I will look into it.

I don’t agree with this, I believe the second coming was the resurrection of Jesus and Jesus has conquered all.

I don’t agree with that part but I would like to get your thoughts on what mingling themselves with he seed of men means.

Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Ok, here is verse 2:45.


Daniel 2:45

45Forasmuch as thou saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Verse 45 confirms the final event on earth: the destruction of the four kingdoms mentioned in verse 35 of the dream sequence. This represents the end-time event when Jesus will return. God instructs Daniel to relay to the king that the prophecies in both the dream and the interpretation sequences (verses 32 to 44) will indeed come to pass and are certain to be fulfilled. However, there is a noticeable difference between the order of materials found in verse 35 of the dream sequence and those in verse 45 of the interpretation sequence. In the dream sequence, the clay was positioned adjacent to the iron and before the bronze: "Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together" (35). Yet, in the end times, the clay is situated in the middle of the four metals: "the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold" (45).

In verse 35, Daniel vividly describes how all the symbolic materials, including the clay, will be crushed into powder and scattered by the wind, signifying their complete destruction. This imagery emphasizes the finality and thoroughness of God's judgment. The change in the order of these materials between verse 35 of the dream sequence and verse 45 of the interpretation sequence likely carries deeper significance within God's plan of salvation. Daniel's use of a grain harvest metaphor in verse 35, which coincides with the timing of Pentecost in Israel, suggests a symbolic connection to God's appointed times and the unfolding of His ultimate purposes. Viewing this grain harvest as an end-time event within the interpretation sequence could imply a symbolic portrayal of God's judgment and redemption, emphasizing different spiritual dynamics or sequences while ultimately pointing towards God's sovereignty over history and His plan for humanity.

At the end of time, those who rejected Jesus as their Lord and Savior, regardless of their background as Jews or Gentiles, will find themselves on the threshing floor. This floor, instead of being made of stone or hardened earth, would consist of the two strongest metals within the four kingdoms of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream—iron and bronze. This ensures that no other material (such as potter’s clay) would be mixed in. God ensures that none of His followers would be found on this "threshing floor.” Then, each of the five separated materials would be crushed together, and God would scatter them with the eastern winds, leaving them to be found no more.

God does not destroy the four kingdoms themselves, but rather, He will obliterate the five elements and materials. Further, this could symbolize that judgment will be directed at each individual rather than at the collective, be it a church, organization, nation, denomination, or kingdom they associate with. Following the cross, God's plan of salvation has transitioned from the external to the internal, from a focus on the kingdom level to the individual level. Now, each of us bears responsibility for our own salvation. We each have access to His Holy Spirit, who acts according to divine instruction, offering us boundless power to overcome.

In Matthew 3:12, 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

As of verse 21 in Daniel 11 this vile person is the main player, the main focus. If your interpretation is correct, submit the verse or verses that tell us what became of this vile person eventually. It makes no sense that one minute he is the main focus, the next minute he isn't, and that the angel doesn't bother to tell us what became of him eventually.

Look at verse 20, for instance. The one meant there, there is very little said about him, yet the angel at least bothered to tell us what became of him eventually. But as to a major player, such as this vile person, this angel is never going to bother telling us what happened to him eventually? That he is just going to quit focusing on him altogether and start focusing on someone else ? Plus, your interpretation implies a gap that is not supported in the text.

To be honest, Antiochus Epiphanes (AE4) is not important per se. His only relevance is to being an archetype of the coming Anti-Christ, that way we have a likeness to look towards. AE4 was killed on the Eastern front (war) by picking up a virus. So, he also died the exact same way we know the Anti-Christ will die, "Without Hands" when Jesus shows up he will slay him by the presence of his coming As Paul says. In Dan. 2 we know the rock is cut out "Without Hands" and smashes the Statue to smithereens. In Dan. 8:25 we know the Prince of princes will slay this man because he will be "Broken Without Hands" so it all matches up, Antiochus died via a virus "without hands".

Dan. 11:20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.

Antiochus III's son Seleucus IV became king and had to raise taxes because Rome was forcing him to have to pay for all his fathers wars, he was soon poisoned to death it seems.

21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Antiochus IV then became king, he is called a vile person. He became king via a series of maneuvers which included flattering the king of Pergamum to gain his allegiance and by the death of the young heir to the throne.

22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

The High Priest, Onias III (prince of the covenant) was replaced via a conspiracy involving the high priests brother Jason and Antiochus Epiphanes but his brother was also double crossed when another priest bribed Antiochus Epiphanes with even more money, it seems Antiochus was for sale at all times for a price, Jason's real name was Yeshua, he favored the Hellenization of Jerusalem/Israel, whereas his brother Onias III was a pious man of God who was put to death.

23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

Antiochus Epiphanes wanted to conquer Egypt in a bad way. He took a "small army" down to Egypt feigning to be the protector of Ptolemy VI who was his nephew. He was of course trying to deceive them whereas he could eventually conquer them via craftiness. This was seemingly his master-plan.

24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
Antiochus Epiphanes gained Egypt's trust and loyalty via spreading the bounty from his wars amongst the public. He visited Egyptian strongholds to get a better understanding on how to conquer them, he was quite cunning, just like the coming Anti-Christ will be.

25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him. 26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.

This is the Sixth Syrian War, (the last of the lot). This was Antiochus Epiphanes against Ptolemy VI. Antiochus Epiphanes attacked Egypt and prevailed over them and many of the Egyptians stood by him and betrayed Ptolemy VI. He was a corrupter of people no doubt, he knew how to divide and conquer.

27 And both of these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

Watching Antiochus Epiphanes operate must have been enthralling back in the day. He pretended to support Ptolemy VI his blood kin, and he pretended to have his best interest in mind, but the truth is he was pitting him against his own brother Ptolemy VII the whole time. Ptolemy VII was of course eventually made king of Egypt by the Alexandrian's who did not trust Ptolemy VI any longer.

28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

Antiochus Epiphanes returned north it seems because of a rumor that he had died. That rumor seemingly caused a war to breakout in Jerusalem. Antiochus Epiphanes plundered the temple of God, killed many people, (60-90k) then journeyed north to Antioch. (his homeland)

29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

Antiochus Epiphanes soon returned to Egypt with the intention of conquering Alexandria. The Egyptians however sent a message to Rome asking for help. Three Roman senators were sent by ship to inform Antiochus Epiphanes that he was not to invade Egypt and to demand that he retreat immediately. This of course made him angry and Antiochus seems to have taken it out on the Jewish believers. He killed many of them but allowed the Hellenistic Jews to live as long as they forsook the Holy Covenant !! He was indeed a vile man, seemingly a forerunner to the coming Anti-Christ/Beast in many of his mannerisms. Jason also seems to be a forerunner of the False Prophet.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

Antiochus Epiphanes defiled the temple of God, stopped the daily sacrifices and even built a pagan alter unto Zeus and sacrificed pigs on it. This was an Abomination unto God, but its not the Abomination that Jesus and Daniel is speaking about of course. This desecrated the temple while it was there, but as we can see, Antiochus Epiphanes served Zeus, thus he can not be the Willful King of verse 36 as many think, because he served no gods. This of course created a schism so to speak amongst the Jewish peoples, which is what Antiochus was good at, divide and conquer tactics. In the end many Jews forsook their God and many refused to do so, but alas, they paid the price with their lives. This of course is a likeness unto the coming end time events in many ways.

33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

CONTINUED

 

[Ronald D Milam]

CONTINUED

TRANSITION PERIOD

I think this three verse passage covers a 2200 some odd year stretch of time. It reaches from the Maccabean Revolt all the way unto the end times via verse 35 where it states even to the time of the end, which is a yet to be appointed time !! We see in verse 33 that many will understand but fall by the sword, flame, captivity, many days, this sounds like the Maccabean war & the early church also, they understood, and thus Rome killed them in many violent ways, and when they fall they will be helped with a little help (Holy Spirit), but many will believe Satan's lies (flatteries). Verse 35 keeps up the 2000 year journey unto the end times, many will fall, be purged, made white (Jesus' blood) EVEN TO THE END TIMES !! Which is yet for a future time to be APPOINTED !! Then we see the Anti-Christ starting in verse 36. I think verse 33 is the Maccabean Revolt, and maybe the early Christian Church, then verses 34 and 35 transition via the whole 2000 year Church Age unto the end time !! The transition is a little convoluting and confuses many, some think Antiochus Epiphanes is the character that runs from Daniel 11:21 all the way to verse 45, some think its the Anti-Christ character that runs from verse 21 all the way to verse 45. Both sides seemingly can't see the transition that I see in verses 33-35, but most do see it. Its there, we just have to look a little deeper, it thus is the transition period between the two characters.

SEGMENTED HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVES

It seems we need to look at this prophecy here in segments. A historical segment that has already been fulfilled (Dan. 11:1-35) and an eschatological segment where the prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. Of course when Daniel received this prophetic uttering none of it had basically come to pass, now all of it has come to pass except for Dan. 11:36-45 and Dan. 12:1-12. So, it seems after verse 35 we can say that we fast forward so to speak into eschatology. Although you might say we are at the utter end of verse 35, for the most part when the Rapture hits we will be at verse 36 via the Tribulation period.

We get the historical lessons via the prophecy of all the Grecian Kingdoms and the Syrian Wars which are detailed unto the nth degree, then Rome became the Fourth Beast and Greece seems to have faded into the background so to speak until the last King/Little Horn arrives, which comes from their lineage, we know this via Daniel chapter 8. We are told of this end time king starting in verse 36 and running unto the end of Daniel chapter 12. Notice in verse 34 and 35 above, it speaks of the time of the end as a yet to be appointed time and states that basically from Antiochus Epiphanes on, there will continue to be persecution and troubles and many who fall will be helped but others will heed the lies of the wicked one or his (flatteries). Some who understand will fall or be tried and purged !! Think of Paul, Peter and the Saints of the Church Age....to make them white (pure), even to the end of time !! Very, very exciting stuff !!

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

The king here has to be the end time Anti-Christ/Beast of Daniel 7:11. He is of course not called the king of the north or south here for a specific reason, the Sixth Syrian War ended the Syrian Wars. Rome came between Greece and Egypt putting a halt to Antiochus Epiphanes plans for good. Rome of course eventually conquered both Egypt and Greece thus becoming the Fourth Beast of the region over Israel.

 

[CTK]

God via Prophecy gave us the whole history of the Grecians for one reason, the Anti-Christ will be born in Greece, and Greece is in the E.U. which fulfills both Dan. 7:7-8 (Revived Rome/the E.U.) and Dan. 8:9 which mandates that the Little Horn must be born in Greece via the DIRECTION he conquers TOWARDS, he conquers TOWARDS the East (Seleucus/Turkey) and TOWARDS (Ptolemy/Egypt) and TOWARDS Israel. Which means he conquers FROM the Northwest (Cassander/Greece) Corridor.

Antiochus was the archetype Anti-Christ and Jason (real name Yeshua) was the archetype False Prophet. That is why we get all the Greek Kings up until Antiochus Epiphanes, to show us what the end time Beast will be like. And that he will have a Jewish High Priest False Prophet as his right hand man.

Thanks. Well, there is no doubt that your interpretation is in line with “today’s accepted interpretations.”

And we are each entitled to our own interpretations… in my study, I certainly began to understand Chapter 11 reading/ learning what just are “today’s accepted interpretations,” but they just didn’t make sense to me.

With only 2 chapters left in the 12, and the last chapter being quite brief and clearly speaks to the true end times in a general manner, it did not make sense that the Book of Daniel would fail to address so much of the Messiah during and after His first coming. The Book of Daniel is not a history book and there is so much that took place after the cross that is not yet discussed in any of the previous chapters.

I understand your comment that you find that AE might be a “type” of the anti-Christ who is “supposed” to come at the end of time during a “unscriptural 7 year tribulation” period, but I would make 3 comments:

1) the Book of Daniel is about our Messiah and His plan of salvation for the Jews and mankind, not some “type” of an anti-Christ. And I have found these verses speak about the time the Messiah arrives on the first day of the last week of the prophecy through to the coming of the little horn who would continue on into chapter 12.

2) I don’t believe there IS a literal @anti- Christ figure in Daniel or Revelation. Certainly, there is the “spirit” of the anti-Christ that began after the cross and would continue until the end times, and there is the ONLY mention of the term “anti-Christ” found 4 times in 1 Peter, but he also uses it as a “spirit” not a literal person.

3) And since I cannot find support at all for a mythical “anti-Christ” figure or a 7 year tribulation period, none of this can refer to these issues.

The most important finding in my study on Chapter 11 is that Daniel is continuing to speak of God’s prophetic plan of salvation. Chapter 11 includes both a “dream like sequence” of verses (big picture), as well as a series of “interpretation sequence” (details) verses that take us from the cross to the little horn (papacy papal Rome) who will come to power after pagan Rome is slain and he will do all things “against the kingdom of God,” during his time in power (until His second coming).

And if you step back and think about it, it makes more sense that this last detailed chapter in his book concludes with the consequences of the most important event in the history of the world - the coming and the destruction of our Lird and Savior.

We simply have not interpreted Chapter 11 as it pertains to Jesus… it is the most difficult chapter but as long as we try to interpret it using our history books, we would never find His prophetic messages.

It is all about Him not some non- relevant Greek kings that come after Alexander.

But, that is just my opinion.

 

[tailgator]

Does this mean you take the vile person to be meaning the false prophet?

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.


The king meant here I take to mean the vile person in verse 21. Who do you take it to mean?

Then by comparing to Revelation 13, the king meant in Daniel 11:36-38 appears to be the beast meant in Revelation 13 that rises out of the sea.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished---apears to maybe mean this---and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods---And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies

and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god--also compare with 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and maybe Isaiah 14:13-14 as well.

The little horn is the beast in revelation 13.

Just because the king of the north is a narcissist who exalts himself as he does,doesn't mean he is the little horn .

The little horn needs help.He always does and the king of the north helps him by giving him his armed forces.His armed forces is the false prophet who decieves the Israelis into receiving the mark of the beast and they will be many who come in Jesus name.They will have two leaders represented by two horns in rev 13.


Mathew 24
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 

[tailgator]

Does this mean you take the vile person to be meaning the false prophet?

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.


The king meant here I take to mean the vile person in verse 21. Who do you take it to mean?

Then by comparing to Revelation 13, the king meant in Daniel 11:36-38 appears to be the beast meant in Revelation 13 that rises out of the sea.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished---apears to maybe mean this---and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods---And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies

and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god--also compare with 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and maybe Isaiah 14:13-14 as well.

There is this one narcissist who I pay attention to.He exalts himself all of the time.That is what narcissists do.They have this inflated sense of importance.He says the most outlandish things such as he is the only one who can save Israel .He is the only one who can keep Israel safe.He will work to make sure Israel is with us for thousands of years.If he is not elected Israel will cease to exist.
And hardly anyone pays attention to what he is saying.
Then you have the little horn which is antichrist.A nation founded for people who reject Christ.A government which claims Jesus's inheritance is theirs.
One of them is the beast.The other says he is the only one who can save the beast.What a combination they make .


I thought by reading the scripture that Jesus was sent to save Israel.He is the saviour.
But now there is this other guy who says he is the only one who can save Israel.

 

[Davidpt]

The little horn is the beast in revelation 13.

Just because the king of the north is a narcissist who exalts himself as he does,doesn't mean he is the little horn .

The little horn needs help.He always does and the king of the north helps him by giving him his armed forces.His armed forces is the false prophet who decieves the Israelis into receiving the mark of the beast and they will be many who come in Jesus name.They will have two leaders represented by two horns in rev 13.


Mathew 24
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Beginning with verse 21 through verse 35 there are only 2 kings in view. The king of the north and the king of the south. And that the king meant in verse 36 has to be one of those two.

The last king mentioned in the text prior to verse 36 is in verse 31 meaning here---And arms shall stand on his part

Obviously, this pronoun is meaning the vile person in verse 21. Therefore, the king meant in verse 36 is the vile person meant in verse 21. And we already know from verse 25 that the vile person is not the king of the south. Therefore, the vile person is the king of the north, thus verse 36 is meaning the king of the north. Keeping in mind, only 2 kings are in view as of verse 21, and prior to verse 36.

 

[tailgator]

Beginning with verse 21 through verse 35 there are only 2 kings in view. The king of the north and the king of the south. And that the king meant in verse 36 has to be one of those two.

The last king mentioned in the text prior to verse 36 is in verse 31 meaning here---And arms shall stand on his part

Obviously, this pronoun is meaning the vile person in verse 21. Therefore, the king meant in verse 36 is the vile person meant in verse 21. And we already know from verse 25 that the vile person is not the king of the south. Therefore, the vile person is the king of the north, thus verse 36 is meaning the king of the north. Keeping in mind, only 2 kings are in view as of verse 21, and prior to verse 36.

So you believe Israel does not exist when the king of the north gives Israel his armed forces in Daniel 11:31?

Don't forget.Israel has its own ruler which they have chosen for themselves .He is not the king of the north or the king of the south.He is the one who decides who goes to prison in Israel and who should be killed in n Daniel 11:33-35.His throne is in Jerusalem .


Let me introduce to you,the little horn.
King of Babylon.

Mathew 23:34
Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Thanks. Well, there is no doubt that your interpretation is in line with “today’s accepted interpretations.”

Not in full, many people think Antiochus was the man in verses 21-45, many think the Anti-Crist will cover all those same verses, most think properly, that Antiochus is the vile person from verses 21-34 and verse 35 is a transitional verse imho, then we get the Anti-Christ from Dan. 11:36-45.

You have to think, WHY? Why would God give is such an unprecedented rundown on every Greek king in Daniel 11? Because he us giving us a Square Box (Four Generals) and a wise man by studying the bible should be able to tell where the "7th to come Syrian War" has to come from. A man of God by studying should be able to understand that this man has to be born in Greece, and just like Antiochus Epiphanes he has an inkling that he is God after all Epiphanes means just that.

So, we understand AE4 defiled the temple, murdered 90k Jews, but we also know he sacrificed unto Zeus which does not fit the Dan. 11:36-45 profile, which says he will have NO GODS !! Everything that happened to Antiochus will happen to this end time Anti-Christ at the 7th Syrian War. He will conquer Israel, and since he's out of Revived Rome (E.U.) he will also conquer every square inch of the Mediterranean Sea Coastline, we can see this in Dan. 11:40-43. Also, a reminder of WHY Antiochus can not be the Dan. 11:36-45 person. WATCH THIS: I am going to prove 100% to you that the End Time Anti-Christ as seen in verses 36-45 CAN NOT BE the Vile Person as seen in Dan. 11:21-34.

Dan. 11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 30 For the ships of Chittim(Rome ruled Cypress Island at that time) shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

So, what does all that even mean? Well, Gaius Popillius Laenas was the Roman senator who stopped Antiochus IV Epiphanes from invading Egypt in 168 BCE: He is said to have drawn a circle around Antiochus and dared him to invade Egypt (Alexandria).

So he returns to the SOUTH after visiting his native homeland, BUT.......KEY.... It will not be a THE FORMER or as the LATTER. Well what does that mean? Since Daniel 11 is about the Syrian Wars it will not be as THE FORMER means when he invaded Egypt before and ruled before he left to go visit his homeland, and THE LATTER means when the Last Syrian War is shown in verses 40-43 where we can clearly see Egypt is conquered. So, if this man never conquered Egypt again, and via history we know he never conquered Egypt/Alexandria but one time, he was forbidden by Rome from doing so again, then how can verses 40-43 be this same vile man? Of course the correct answer is it CAN NOT be the same man.

With only 2 chapters left in the 12, and the last chapter being quite brief and clearly speaks to the true end times in a general manner, it did not make sense that the Book of Daniel would fail to address so much of the Messiah during and after His first coming. The Book of Daniel is not a history book and there is so much that took place after the cross that is not yet discussed in any of the previous chapters.

This is in you mind my friend, no one else sees Daniel as a Prophesy about the Messiah. Its a Prophesy about Beasts over Israel, trying to bring Israel unto repentance. Even in Dan. 9:24-27 that is not about the Messiah, Daniel is shown THREE MARKERS, the Wall being rebuilt, the Messiah dying, and the End Time Anti-Christ making an Agreement (Covenant) with Israel and THE MANY (every nation in the Region as can be seen in the European Neighborhood Policy, LOOK IT UP, the deals run in 7 year cycles) and all that is is this, Israel will join the E.U. as a Member State.

I can come back later and you you play by play the Dan. 11:40-43 battle where Egypt is conquered, but this man can not be the same man in verses 21-34 CAN NOT be the same man who conquers Egypt in the letter times.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yet someone else that sees these connections pretty much identically to how I do. Very well reasoned OP. The OP has debunked Amil, except we all know Amil will never admit it.

Why would we admit something that isn't true? You're always thinking something debunks Amil despite the many holes in your own Premil view that you can't get around. Such delusional thinking.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That’s not what I said. Amils believe the thousand year reign of Rev. 20 started when Jesus was resurrected, thus they also believe this below has already taken place….

Revelation 20​

​

King James Version​

​

​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

By the way, the time, times, and a half is not a literal 3 and a half years.

Your last statement is something amils typically believe, not premils. But, you're too ignorant to even know that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here is another way to prove the “Amil” doctrine is false.

LOL. There are no ways to prove that since Amil doctrine is true. Premil doctrine has been refuted by Amils so many times that I couldn't possibly count them all.

Premils deny the truth of so many scriptures, it's ridiculous. They deny that there is a singular HOUR coming when all of the dead will be raised, as Jesus taught in John 5:28-29. They deny that the entire earth will be burned up when Jesus returns, as Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:10-12. They deny that all people will be judged at the same time, as passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 indicate. They deny that Jesus has been reigning over the earth since His resurrection as scripture explicitly teaches in passages like Matthew 28:16-18 and Ephesians 1:19-23. They deny that Christ's death, resurrection and the preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit has had a huge impact on Satan. On and on it goes. But, you think you have proven Amil false. Far from it! Very far from it!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What some are failing to admit, refuse to admit, is this. And not just meaning Amils. There are some Premils that won't admit it either. Meaning my point in regards to verse 12 below.

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

In verse 12 the era of time that is meaning is the same era of time verses 9-11 are meaning. And if we then compare to Revelation 19:20, we know the era of time is involving Christ's bodily return in the end of this age. This tells us that the great white throne judgment is not in view here, since it would be ludicrous that the following could happen during that event---yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

If you want to be taken seriously about this, then you need to give your understanding of the identity of the four beasts. So, can you please do so? You understand that Daniel 7:11 is referring to the fourth beast, I assume? So, what do "the rest of the beasts" represent then, keeping in mind that Daniel 7:23 indicates that they represent kingdoms?

 

[Davidpt]

[/HEADING]
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.”

This is the sign of the resurrection of the dead in Christ being caught up in the clouds of heaven.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Except 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 involves the sounding of a trumpet. Where do you see the sounding of a trumpet taking place when the 2Ws rise and ascend into heaven? Don't they do that before the 7th trumpet sounds rather than when the 7th trumpet sounds?

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God : and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The 7th trumpet is obviously the 3rd woe. When the 2Ws rise and ascend to heaven, they do that during the 2nd woe not the 3rd woe. Therefore, this event couldn't possibly be meaning 1 Corinthians 4:13-17. The last trump is not during the 2nd woe, it is during the 3rd woe. There is no trumpet sounding towards the end of the 2nd woe. But even if there was it would not be the last trump, though. The last trump is the 7th trumpet.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Except 1 Thessalonians 4:17-21 involves the sounding of a trumpet. Where do you see the sounding of a trumpet taking place when the 2Ws rise and ascend into heaven? Don't they do that before the 7th trumpet sounds rather than when the 7th trumpet sounds?

You're not recognizing that the trumpets are not literal trumpets. You continue to interpret literal things symbolically and symbolic things literally. The trumpets symbolically represent voices.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I'm sure you understand that Revelation 10:7 is a reference to the seventh trumpet, right? Well, it's also referred to as "the voice of the seventh angel". Compare the following two passages.

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

In 1 Thess 4:16, the "shout", the "voice of the archangel" and "the trump of God" all refer to the same thing. The "voice of the archangel" in 1 Thess 4:16 is the same as the "great voice from heaven" in Rev 11:12.

 

[tailgator]

You're not recognizing that the trumpets are not literal trumpets. You continue to interpret literal things symbolically and symbolic things literally. The trumpets symbolically represent voices.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I'm sure you understand that Revelation 10:7 is a reference to the seventh trumpet, right? Well, it's also referred to as "the voice of the seventh angel". Compare the following two passages.

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

In 1 Thess 4:16, the "shout", the "voice of the archangel" and "the trump of God" all refer to the same thing. The "voice of the archangel" in 1 Thess 4:16 is the same as the "great voice from heaven" in Rev 11:12.

The seventh angel did not make a sound before the two witnesses ascend to heaven.
What are you doing,trying to rewrite revelation 11?

This is when the seventh angel makes his sound.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdom of this world are become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Davidpt]

You're not recognizing that the trumpets are not literal trumpets. You continue to interpret literal things symbolically and symbolic things literally. The trumpets symbolically represent voices.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I'm sure you understand that Revelation 10:7 is a reference to the seventh trumpet, right? Well, it's also referred to as "the voice of the seventh angel". Compare the following two passages.

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

In 1 Thess 4:16, the "shout", the "voice of the archangel" and "the trump of God" all refer to the same thing. The "voice of the archangel" in 1 Thess 4:16 is the same as the "great voice from heaven" in Rev 11:12.

It doesn't matter if the trumpets are literal or not. The 2nd woe comes before the 3rd woe. The 2nd woe is not the last trump, the 3rd woe is. How then can they be rising during the 3rd woe during the 2nd woe? Where is the logic in that? How can the last trump be sounding during the 2nd woe if it is not until the 3rd woe that it sounds? The text clearly says after the 2Ws have risen, the 2nd woe is past, the third woe cometh quickly. Then the very next verse says the 7th trumpet sounds.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It doesn't matter if the trumpets are literal or not.

Now you're saying this after making the argument that Revelation 11:12 can't be referring to the rapture since it doesn't reference a trumpet? It seemed like it mattered to you when you were making that argument. What changed in the 20+ minutes between the time you made that argument and the time you created this post?

The 2nd woe comes before the 3rd woe. The 2nd woe is not the last trump, the 3rd woe is. How then can they be rising during the 3rd woe during the 2nd woe?

I'm sure you understand that the second woe is the sixth trumpet. Revelation 11:1-13 is not a description of the sixth trumpet. It's a parenthetical passage just like Revelation 10. The sixth trumpet is described in Revelation 9:13-21. Then follows the parenthetical passages of Revelation 10 and Revelation 11:1-13, and then in Revelation 11:14 it picks up where it left off in Revelation 9:21.

I know, based on comments you've made elsewhere recently, that you understand that the book is not all chronological, so what I'm telling you here shouldn't be hard for you to understand.

Where is the logic in that?

Where is the logic in thinking that Revelation 11:1-13 is part of the description of the sixth trumpet? It's not any more a description of the sixth trumpet than Revelation 10 is.