I'm not taking sides and can't keep up with everything today but I think there might be a certain amount of misunderstanding here. Things often get lost or misconstrued in the communication. Hepzibah did try to clarify this point about being "sin free", tried to find it to give you the post # but wasn't able to.
The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.
- Thread starter Hepzibah
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I missed this one. Don't get me on to evangelicalism! Walking in the Spirit is unknown there.
I will explain to you where non cessationist churches go wrong.
They emphasise the Holy Spirit, and victory over sin is dependant on following after the Holy Spirit.
However, Paul’s core message hinges on a person knowing they have no righteousness of obeying the law. It is knowing that, that is the key to victory over sin(but not to perfection)
Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
Bearing that verse in mind:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law/not committing sin, rather through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20
Non cessationist churches that I have been to emphasise holy living to a very high degree. They continually stress applicable law must be obeyed, and insist on a very high standard of holiness/not committing sin. But, none I have been to stresses, what to Paul is victory over sin. Where does this leave the individual?
In reality, they struggle under a righteousness of not committing sin/observing the law.
And it does not matter the Holy Spirit is then emphasised, the power of sin remains for the sincere, honest, and humble convert:
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56
Sinfull passions are aroused in people by the law if they live under it Rom7:5
The reality is, people live under a strict righteousness of obeying the law. For the hard hearted, or those able to water down the commandments, it is easier, but not for the humble and sincere.
Preach holiness by all means, but if you are going to quote Paul, do not ignore his core message as to how sin is seen victory over:
For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ.
I have been to no non cessationist church that preaches that basic message. Frankly, I don't think they understand it.
Sin shall not be your master for you have no righteousness of not committing sin/observing the law
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It's a big subject and for me if I overthink it I will get lost in the weeds. As I understand this, the Law was weak through the flesh (that is speaking of the old covenant which came with a curse).....but the new covenant, which still fulfills the Law, now enables us to keep the Law through the Spirit, and not trying to keep it through the flesh. But we are not under the curse of the Law (condemnation/death)....as long as we don't abuse this grace....by using it as a license or cloak for sin......because scripture says to the believer that God is not mocked, if a man sows to the flesh he will from the flesh reap destruction but if he sows to the Spirit he will (from the spirit) reap eternal life. That's how I understand this in a nutshell.
The new way of the Spirit (as opposed to the old way of the letter) means that the law is written on our conscience and we serve in the new way of the Spirit, having His help now, and our conscience also being unctioned and guided by Him (although our conscience also needs to be instructed out of the law - all scripture is profitable for instruction, correction, reproof, etc....washing of the water of the word).
There is a tendency to swing the pendulum either too far one way or the other, but I believe we need to have a balanced understanding.
I need to see these ideas in Biblical terms, myself. What is "the essence" of God? We share in the very substance of our parents. We have been born from God.
?
Much love!
@GodsGrace
I've shared the same experience as @Hepzibah, a temporary state of apparent sinlessness. I don't normally characterize it that way, to me it was more of, silent flesh, but the net result was the same, a completely clean conscience.
Do you believe this to be possible?
Much love!
John included himself in all the chapter, the good, the bad, the ugly. He wrote inclusively, saying, "we".
Are you hoping to disprove that someone may walk consistently in the Spirit? Why would you want to do that?
Much love!
At about 4:15 or so he mentions the uncreated manifestations of God in our world that are not His essence . . .Huh?essence v energy of God - Search Videos
www.bing.com
Only 6.41 mins
I'm sorry, this didn't help me. Except when he said the energies of God refers to His power.
My understanding is that God is my Father, and as such, I share from Him like I share from my natural father. I've got something very significant from him in me.
Much love!
Why would one follow after The Holy Spirit. Why not be One with The Holy Spirit.(The Lord) Two can not walk together unless they agree. To be a partaker of The Divine Nature is to be in The Spirit. To walk in The Spirit is to be willing hop in the back seat and let Him drive. In other words let The Holy Spirit possess you in Word and deed including the spiritual gifts as He wills. I have to go out in a little bit. It is my job to be clean and to be a willing vessel.(A vessel unto honor). The Bible says to be ready in season and out. I may be walking in The Spirit today or I might not. I never know but I know that The Lord always provides(He is faithful) provides what is needed at that very moment. When Steven stood up and spoke, that was The Lord providing. It really is an amazing walk once we believe what we have been given and allow Him to work in us and through us. Will we ever attain, no, but we can be a useful vessel for His Glory.
Sorry it did not help. We have to remember that quite a bit of EO stuff is apologetics. I find one problem is that people start with a bias, like listening to RCC stuff. Then there is a problem with understanding the mindset.
Not sure of the meaning of the uncreated manifestations not essence. Will have to think about it.
I am not trying to get people to convert. It is just that what they do have right is much deeper than we are used to. We just have to bypass the errors. They can teach us a lot.
Amen, I know what you mean. Scripture and it's words are in spirit.....that's why I like to confine myself to them as much as possible and sort of hold them in spirit with the mind of Christ. It's about having ears to hear what the spirit is saying. But the carnal mind comes along and wants to explain everything in a logical way and that's where things can veer off or miss the mark. So something like essence versus energies of God......I just don't see the bible trying to explain it that way and I wonder if to put it in those terms is more of an intellectual or philosophical exercise rather than a spiritual one. (But if we were going to argue in those terms really I wonder if we could say we are partaking of both His essence AND energies.....if so, it is HIS essence and energies we are having a share in, not our own essence and energies in our own right like God....and that is what makes Him God and we are not.)
@marks
www.bing.com
Start at 6 mins for as long as you want.
essence v energy of God - Búsqueda Vídeos
Start at 6 mins for as long as you want.
Walking above the fleshly carnal nature and its sin because it is completely under your feet.,? As the scripture in describing victory, uses the image of putting things under the feet....it says all things have been put under the feet of Jesus but we do not yet (necessarily) see all things put under. ( I have seen some speak in terms of being separated from our old man carnal nature as well, to describe this. Why the sword of the spirit penetrates to the DIVIDING of soul and spirit. Being divided/separated from it results in not even being aware of it in those times.)
I see it as having the spirit, in union with Christ, in purity, divorced from our emotions and thoughts that are not just sinful but the natural workings like intuition that is from God.
If you have the time to watch the last video (I listen on 1.5 speed) you will hear that our English versions miss certain important things in the translations.
No marks. I do not believe it's possible to be free from sin.
I believe we sin every day, even when we're not aware of it although that will not count as sin as far as guilt is concerned.
I don't know about the experience the other member, H, has had and I really don't care to know.
Every saint has sinned, monks I know state they sin, every Christian person I know sins,
and provision for this has been made in the NT as I've stated already a few times now.
The writers of the NT would not provide for sin if they believed man could stop sinning.
Instead, they warned to be disciples of Jesus.
Paul even told the Corinthians to let a member back into the church after he repented of sinning.
If your conscience has been formed by God (and not the world) then it's impossible to have a completely
clean conscience.
Of course monks can and do sin.....belonging to a monastery or convent does nothing against sin.
If you don't want to go by testimonies (though from scripture I believe we should consider and weigh testimonies), then just go by what scripture says about the matter:
Rom 7:24-25
O wretched man that I am! who shall DELIVER me from the BODY of this death?
I thank God THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the FLESH the law of sin...........
Rom 8:1
........There is THEREFORE now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Gal 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Because when you are walking in the spirit (God’s spirit) you are not in the flesh, hence you are not sinning. Sin/iniquity lives in our flesh and its old nature.....our body of death. We wont’ be sinning when we leave this flesh and its iniquity behind for good either. (Flesh cannot inherit…we will not be bringing it with us to heaven.)
I'll never say - in this life - that I'm not at all sinning. And at one time I'd have answered the same as you, that this is not possible. However, having experienced this very thing myself, I'd have to say differently. It was for a time . . . that time ended. But as you may imaging this experience left an indelible impression on me.
I just say this to encourage you to keep an open mind towards what God may do.
Much love!
When I was a young christian, every so often I would come before God in earnest repentance of my shortcomings before him. After I did that, I felt a temporary state of apparent sinlessness, a completely clean conscience, as you mentioned, but it never lasted for long!
