The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[GodsGrace]

Yes it was Avila and l have read it. She went against St John of the Cross l believe with that idea whose view was more of the early church with three stages ending in union.

I know about John of the Cross but am not familiar with his 3 levels/stages.

I agree more with St. Teresa in that we can jump around from stage to stage, or go forward or backward, or feel like we're not progressing at all.

It just makes sense to me in theory and in experience.
I think that once we NOTICE God and decide for Him and decide to follow Him after some type of born again experience...
we can be said to be in union with Him....
but, as some put it, babes that need maturing.
The Holy Spirit will help us and convict us and the maturing will happen if we OBEY God.

 

[Johann]

I know about John of the Cross but am not familiar with his 3 levels/stages.

I agree more with St. Teresa in that we can jump around from stage to stage, or go forward or backward, or feel like we're not progressing at all.

It just makes sense to me in theory and in experience.
I think that once we NOTICE God and decide for Him and decide to follow Him after some type of born again experience...
we can be said to be in union with Him....
but, as some put it, babes that need maturing.
The Holy Spirit will help us and convict us and the maturing will happen if we OBEY God.

--and through much suffering, as per Scripture.
J.

 

[GodsGrace]

--and through much suffering, as per Scripture.
J.

I have to leave now....but maybe you could explain better what you mean by suffering.
Do you mean how we suffer because we witness God?
I can't think of any other type...
Tomorrow...

 

[Hepzibah]

I know about John of the Cross but am not familiar with his 3 levels/stages.

I agree more with St. Teresa in that we can jump around from stage to stage, or go forward or backward, or feel like we're not progressing at all.

It just makes sense to me in theory and in experience.
I think that once we NOTICE God and decide for Him and decide to follow Him after some type of born again experience...
we can be said to be in union with Him....
but, as some put it, babes that need maturing.
The Holy Spirit will help us and convict us and the maturing will happen if we OBEY God.

St John wrote about the two 'night's of darkness, the first of the soul and the second, and much darker, night of the spirit. Teresa refused him as her spiritual advisor yet he was much more spiritually aware than the one she chose. I think she did not like his disapproval of her likeness for 'signs'.

 

[Johann]

I have to leave now....but maybe you could explain better what you mean by suffering.
Do you mean how we suffer because we witness God?
I can't think of any other type...
Tomorrow...

Hebrews 12:10-11 (NKJV):
"For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."

1 Peter 4:12-13 (NKJV):
"Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy."

Romans 8:17 (NKJV):
"and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together."

Philippians 3:10 (NKJV):
"that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,"

2 Timothy 2:12 (NKJV):
"If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us."

James 1:2-4 (NKJV):
"My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing."

1 Peter 5:10 (NKJV):
"But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you."

2 Corinthians 4:17 (NKJV):
"For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory,"

 

[Hepzibah]

I don't see these levels as you do. I think we are in varying states of spiritual maturity, each in a unique relationship with God, wherein He works with us according as we each need.

Much love!

I would recommend The Royal Invitation by Francis Havergal it's online for understanding what being in Christ means. It is all scripture.

But anyway Mark, as we continue to misunderstand each other, it would help if you said exactly where you stand as it feels like you keep changing it.

 

[Johann]

St John wrote about the two 'night's of darkness, the first of the soul and the second, and much darker, night of the spirit. Teresa refused him as her spiritual advisor yet he was much more spiritually aware than the one she chose. I think she did not like his disapproval of her likeness for 'signs'.

Glad this came up, on a lighter note-

St. John of the Cross and the "Dark Nights"
St. John of the Cross is a renowned mystic and theologian within the Catholic Church, known for his writings on spiritual growth, particularly in the context of mystical experiences. He is famous for describing the “Dark Night of the Soul” and the “Dark Night of the Spirit” in his works.

The Dark Night of the Soul: This concept refers to a period of spiritual desolation, doubt, and difficulty that one may experience as they grow closer to God. It is a purification process that prepares the soul for a deeper union with God.

The Dark Night of the Spirit: According to St. John, this is an even deeper, more intense phase of spiritual purification. It’s considered darker because it is a more profound experience of detachment and purification, leading the soul toward perfect union with God.

2. St. Teresa of Ávila and St. John of the Cross
St. Teresa of Ávila was a contemporary of St. John of the Cross, and both were key figures in the Spanish mysticism of the 16th century. They collaborated on the reform of the Carmelite order, and both wrote extensively on the mystical life.

Their Relationship: While St. John and St. Teresa had a close spiritual relationship and shared a deep commitment to the reform of the Carmelite order, there is no historical evidence to suggest that Teresa "refused" St. John as her spiritual advisor due to his views on signs. In fact, Teresa held John in high regard, and they supported each other’s spiritual journeys.

Likeness for ‘Signs’: Teresa of Ávila experienced many mystical visions and locutions (interior words) throughout her life, and she documented these in her writings, particularly in her autobiography and in "The Interior Castle." While St. John of the Cross emphasized the importance of spiritual detachment and cautioned against becoming too attached to extraordinary spiritual experiences, [I simply love this!]-it is not recorded that Teresa rejected him because of this. They had a deep mutual respect, despite differences in emphasis in their spiritual teachings.

So the statement that St. Teresa refused him as a spiritual advisor because of her preference for "signs" is not supported by historical evidence. The relationship between these two saints was marked by mutual respect and collaboration, even if their spiritual emphases differed at times. Speculation about personal disagreements or preferences may be more reflective of later interpretations rather than historical fact.

Yup-I concur with St. John-the whole world is running after extraordinary spiritual experiences, signs and wonders.
Right-Goodnight.
J.

 

[Hepzibah]

I studied his books. It came from him that he offered and l said it was my summation.I

He had constant problems with the Catholic authorities.

 

[GTW27]

I don't know what "essence" means related to God, however, as I understand what you are asking me, we are changed by His unification with us in rebirth, so that we are different because God shares Himself with us, and that difference is the fact that our lives are no longer "individual", but are shared between He and us.

2 Corinthians 3:18 KJV
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

"out of glory, into glory", that is, what is His glory becomes our glory as we are transformed into His image, as he works within us.

Much love!

Blessings in Christ Jesus marks.
2 Corinthians 3:18 KJV
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Let me give an example in my life. There have been times when I have been in my car when I have been in The Spirit. The rear view mirror(as in a glass) is right in front of me. Most of the time when I look I just see me in the mirror. My eyes are clear from being clean(repented up). But there have been times I have been in The Spirit. My countenance changes to all joy and there is a glowing as people have said. This is The Glory of The Lord coming forth. It is not my glory it is His. And so it is when walking in The Spirit, or preaching in The Spirit. One must be willing to lay it all down and hop in The back seat. When walking in The Spirit there is no sin as there is no sin found in Him. There is no fulfilling the lust of the flesh as He is Holy and righteous. I went out today to a few stores. I had no plans to speak to people but The Lord did. So when this happens my countenance changes and the words are spoken as The Lord wills. Today was testifying to The Lord's mercy in healings. The words are spoken to strangers and yet The Lord knows them better than they know themselves. He knows and speaks exactly what they need to hear. He gives hope to the hopeless and comforts the down trodden. I can not speak for other people but what I testify to is part of my calling. The Bible says that two can not walk together unless they agree. Let us agree with The Holy Spirit within us, always remembering a servant is never above his Master or a student above his Teacher but when fully taught will be like his Master or Teacher. I thought I would throw this in in the mist of this thread. Blessings!

 

[Johann]

I studied his books. It came from him that he offered and l said it was my summation.I

He had constant problems with the Catholic authorities.

No worries—we all make mistakes when speed reading. The brain can only process so much before it starts to tune out. But now, in this Age of Enlightenment, we have an abundance of information at our fingertips through the Internet. The risk of not fact-checking everything we come across online is higher than ever.
Shalom @Hepzibah
J.

 

[marks]

I am just trying to grasp what you said about being in a spell where you were delivered from sin.

I believe God was showing me the prize, the result of maturity, of a consistent faith.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It is all scripture.

I prefer to discuss these things direction from the Scriptures themselves.

it would help if you said exactly where you stand

I believe that when we come to faith in Jesus, we are reborn, which means to be recreated a new person, this person not from Adam's line of humanity, but now from Jesus' line of humanity. We are moved from the kingdom of darkness to Jesus' kingdom. We are recreated uncorrupted and freed from sin.

After this it's a matter of learning control over our still corrupt flesh (ruined bodies and brains), of growing in faith that we no longer have fear of condemnation, which lifts us out of the Law-keeping rat race, and as we learn more of Jesus, then becoming more like Him.

God may at times do virtually anything in our lives (righteous things of course) in order to bring us more fully along the Way. This would include my stint of silence from the flesh, or however we should call it. A cutting away of the effects of the corruption of the flesh.

If Theosis is what we call a second grant from God that allows us to live holy lives, beyond what we've received being born again, I believe Scripture flatly denies this idea. Christ has come to live in us, has joined Himself to us, and His presence in us is NOT deficient towards equiping our lives.

I believe the Bible teaches us specifically that we are not qualified to judge ourselves to say, "I'm in Theosis - sinless". We aren't the ones to say that. So this being the case, we should simply focus not on what state we think we are in, but that if we are reborn in Christ, focus on fellowshipping with Him, other Christians, and in serving others out of a true love for them. If we find we lack that love, then we do the best we can for others, but seek first Jesus, that we may be filled with His love, to become our love, spilling out to others.

I hope this clarifies!

Much love!

 

[Johann]

I prefer to discuss these things direction from the Scriptures themselves.


I believe that when we come to faith in Jesus, we are reborn, which means to be recreated a new person, this person not from Adam's line of humanity, but now from Jesus' line of humanity. We are moved from the kingdom of darkness to Jesus' kingdom. We are recreated uncorrupted and freed from sin.

After this it's a matter of learning control over our still corrupt flesh (ruined bodies and brains), of growing in faith that we no longer have fear of condemnation, which lifts us out of the Law-keeping rat race, and as we learn more of Jesus, then becoming more like Him.

God may at times do virtually anything in our lives (righteous things of course) in order to bring us more fully along the Way. This would include my stint of silence from the flesh, or however we should call it. A cutting away of the effects of the corruption of the flesh.

If Theosis is what we call a second grant from God that allows us to live holy lives, beyond what we've received being born again, I believe Scripture flatly denies this idea. Christ has come to live in us, has joined Himself to us, and His presence in us is NOT deficient towards equiping our lives.

I believe the Bible teaches us specifically that we are not qualified to judge ourselves to say, "I'm in Theosis - sinless". We aren't the ones to say that. So this being the case, we should simply focus not on what state we think we are in, but that if we are reborn in Christ, focus on fellowshipping with Him, other Christians, and in serving others out of a true love for them. If we find we lack that love, then we do the best we can for others, but seek first Jesus, that we may be filled with His love, to become our love, spilling out to others.

I hope this clarifies!

Much love!

Love this from Spurgeon-"We may have all our doctrines correct but without a relationship with Christ Jesus those doctrines won't save us"

We must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling and SHOULD know we have eternal life right now and a personal relationship with Him in the sphere of the Holy Spirit.

Here is some references to what you have posted, love it man!

Rebirth and New Creation in Christ
2 Corinthians 5:17 (NKJV):
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."

John 3:3 (NKJV):
"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'"

Colossians 1:13-14 (NKJV):
"He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins."

Romans 6:6 (NKJV):
"knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin."

Learning Control Over the Flesh and Growing in Faith
Romans 8:12-13 (NKJV):
"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

Galatians 5:16-17 (NKJV):
"I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish."

Romans 8:1 (NKJV):
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

Philippians 3:12-14 (NKJV):
"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."

God's Work in Our Lives and Cutting Away the Corruption of the Flesh
Philippians 2:13 (NKJV):
"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

Hebrews 12:10-11 (NKJV):
"For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."

Romans 8:29 (NKJV):
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Sufficiency of Christ in Us and Rejection of Theosis as a Second Grant
Colossians 2:9-10 (NKJV):
"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power."

Galatians 2:20 (NKJV):
"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

Ephesians 3:17-19 (NKJV):
"that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God."

Not Judging Ourselves and Focusing on Fellowship and Service
1 Corinthians 4:3-4 (NKJV):
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord."

Romans 14:4 (NKJV):
"Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand."

John 15:12 (NKJV):
"This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."

1 John 3:18 (NKJV):
"My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth."

Matthew 5:6 (NKJV):
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled."

J.

 

[Hepzibah]

I prefer to discuss these things direction from the Scriptures themselves.

Yes but we have a ministry in certain areas where we can demonstrate error from scripture more effectively.

I believe that when we come to faith in Jesus, we are reborn, which means to be recreated a new person, this person not from Adam's line of humanity, but now from Jesus' line of humanity. We are moved from the kingdom of darkness to Jesus' kingdom. We are recreated uncorrupted and freed from sin.

I agree with everything that has been posted about what the reborn state entails. That is it - we are a new creation and all things are new. Everything that Christ gained for us on the cross, is therefore a done thing, and it is now by faith that we can walk in it. It is finished and there is nothing that we can do but believe it. If we fail to walk in it - walk as Christ walked, we are not reckoning it, we are doubting it. What is needed is a renewed reckoning which entails an open heart and the humility to be corrected. The scriptures on the crucified life must be taken in context.

We are given the pure heart that King David cried out for, at that point. You now have everything you need - it is so simple that a child can understand it. It requires no knowledge of doctrine or Bible study. Your father says this or that and you do it. You do not question why, you obey immediately and completely. Unlike the good child though, we are doing everything in the strength and power of the creator of the universe - the Lord God Almighty. If we fail then we have attempted it in our own strength and put ourselves under the curse of the law.

There is no progress in scripture regarding this. We are in salvation or not in it. Of course we must develop the mind of Christ from then onwards, and become good soldiers, efficient in the battle with the enemy, learning to interpret scripture through the Holy Spirit. That takes time. But the level of our obedience is according to the state of our heart. We love Him with the whole heart soul and mind or we are not saved from sin.

After this it's a matter of learning control over our still corrupt flesh (ruined bodies and brains), of growing in faith that we no longer have fear of condemnation, which lifts us out of the Law-keeping rat race, and as we learn more of Jesus, then becoming more like Him.

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.​

​

19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:​

20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. Matt 15:18-20​

​

​

God may at times do virtually anything in our lives (righteous things of course) in order to bring us more fully along the Way. This would include my stint of silence from the flesh, or however we should call it. A cutting away of the effects of the corruption of the flesh.

I think you have been listening too much to epi! There is no more work that needs to be done. We are supposed to have a pure undefiled heart. That is no longer an issue. If it is, then we need to take stock to find out whether we really are born again or whether we just know the truth of it because one day we responded to the gospel and began to read the Bible.

We did have an authentic encounter with the living Christ and are one of His disciples - in training as were the disciples pre-Pentecost.

If Theosis is what we call a second grant from God that allows us to live holy lives, beyond what we've received being born again, I believe Scripture flatly denies this idea. Christ has come to live in us, has joined Himself to us, and His presence in us is NOT deficient towards equiping our lives.

Amen! There is no further work to be done. It is finished. But did we receive the full gospel or a watered down one. Were we taught that sanctification is by faith alone and is there today for us? It is not a good thing for the unscriptural hierarchy we see in apostacy.

I believe the Bible teaches us specifically that we are not qualified to judge ourselves to say, "I'm in Theosis - sinless". We aren't the ones to say that. So this being the case, we should simply focus not on what state we think we are in, but that if we are reborn in Christ, focus on fellowshipping with Him, other Christians, and in serving others out of a true love for them. If we find we lack that love, then we do the best we can for others, but seek first Jesus, that we may be filled with His love, to become our love, spilling out to others.

Yes we are to look outwards and not concentrate within. However, it is necessary that our inward experience matches that expounded in scripture of the crucified state. We do know if we are walking in the Light because walking in darkness is a stark contrast. We are restored to the quality of relationship with the Lord that we see demonstrated in the church of the NT. The longing in our hearts for that sort of walk is satisfied. The Spirit witnesses with our spirit that Christ is pleased with us and there are no issues between us. There is no niggling conviction of sin in the quiet hours.

I hope this clarifies!

Thank you @marks, that is very useful for me that you explained it so well.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

So. Here's the question. Is rebirth given by God following our receiving of and believing in Jesus? OR is there some intermediary step or requirement between "receive and believe" and "born of God", that doesn't appear here, and if so, what is the Scriptural support for this?

I hope I have answered that question @marks. Please say if not.

 

[Lizbeth]

I don't believe in two levels either. We are in the ark or outside of it.

Think we need to consider that we are all in the ark, all who have received saving faith in Jesus which justifies us and reconciles us to God through Him. I love the types and shadows of scripture....would like to mention that there are three levels/stories in the ark. And perhaps that corresponds to the "children", "young men" and "fathers" of 1John. Also want to point out that as Mary is a type/figure for the church and perhaps a pattern for believers on a personal level, first the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she conceived - and that which was conceived in her was of the Holy Spirit. Then she was gestating and growing that Life in her for a long time while He was being fully formed in her (the fruit of her womb ripening). Until finally she gave birth to (manifested), the Son of God who is the image of the Father.

 

[Lizbeth]

I take it you believe infant baptism is regenerative?

1Pe 3:15 but set Christ apart (+) as Lord in your hearts, always ready to (+) make a defense to anyone who asks you (+) for an accounting concerning the hope (+) that is in you.
1Pe 3:16 But (+) do so with courtesy and respect, having a good conscience, so that in (+) the things in which you are slandered, the ones who malign your good conduct in Christ may be put to shame.
1Pe 3:17 For (+) it is better to suffer for doing good, if God wills it [Literally “if the will of God wills”] , than for doing evil.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, in order that he could bring you to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 in which also he went (+) and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
1Pe 3:20 who were formerly disobedient, when the patience of God waited in the days of Noah, (+) while [Here “while” is supplied as a component of the temporal genitive absolute participle (“was being constructed”)] an ark was being constructed, in which a few—that is, eight souls—were rescued through water.
1Pe 3:21 And [Literally “which”] also, corresponding to (+) this, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Pe 3:22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, with angels and authorities and powers having been subjected to him.


I gave you the context-what Orthodox sources could you give me to exegete the above passage? This is only fair to ask since you believe Western Orthodoxy has departed from the truth.

You can put the links in your response..

Jesus said to Nicodemus that we must be born of water and the Spirit (the Jews knew what it meant to be born of water....mikvah/baptism). Like as it says elsewhere that He came not by water only, but by water and blood.

But the natural man can't perceive these things....our carnal minds are too literal and logical and off the mark spiritually. These are spiritual truths and need to be held in the Spirit so to speak....spiritually discerned.

 

[Johann]

Jesus said to Nicodemus that we must be born of water and the Spirit (the Jews knew what it meant to be born of water....mikvah/baptism). Like as it says elsewhere that He came not by water only, but by water and blood.

But the natural man can't perceive these things....our carnal minds are too literal and logical and off the mark spiritually. These are spiritual truths and need to be held in the Spirit so to speak....spiritually discerned.

Interesting.

Matthew 11:25 (NKJV):
"At that time Jesus answered and said, 'I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.'"

Matthew 13:11 (NKJV):
"He answered and said to them, 'Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.'"

2 Corinthians 1:13 (NKJV):
"For we are not writing any other things to you than what you read or understand. Now I trust you will understand, even to the end."

2 Corinthians 3:12 (NKJV):
"Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech."

Ephesians 3:3-4 (NKJV):
"How that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)."

2 Timothy 3:15 (NKJV):
"And that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

1 John 2:27 (NKJV):
"But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him."

Scripture says otherwise.
Do you believe an unregenerate man/woman cannot read or hear and understand the Scriptures?

 

[Hepzibah]

Think we need to consider that we are all in the ark, all who have received saving faith in Jesus which justifies us and reconciles us to God through Him. I love the types and shadows of scripture....would like to mention that there are three levels/stories in the ark. And perhaps that corresponds to the "children", "young men" and "fathers" of 1John. Also want to point out that as Mary is a type/figure for the church and perhaps a pattern for believers on a personal level, first the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she conceived - and that which was conceived in her was of the Holy Spirit. Then she was gestating and growing that Life in her for a long time while He was being fully formed in her (the fruit of her womb ripening). Until finally she gave birth to (manifested), the Son of God who is the image of the Father.

Agreed that there are stages of growth when in holiness or in the ark. But in the ark. And with a pure heart.

 

[Lizbeth]

Interesting.

Matthew 11:25 (NKJV):
"At that time Jesus answered and said, 'I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.'"

Matthew 13:11 (NKJV):
"He answered and said to them, 'Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.'"

2 Corinthians 1:13 (NKJV):
"For we are not writing any other things to you than what you read or understand. Now I trust you will understand, even to the end."

2 Corinthians 3:12 (NKJV):
"Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech."

Ephesians 3:3-4 (NKJV):
"How that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)."

2 Timothy 3:15 (NKJV):
"And that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

1 John 2:27 (NKJV):
"But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him."

Scripture says otherwise.
Do you believe an unregenerate man/woman cannot read or hear and understand the Scriptures?

Only if the Holy Spirit gives them light to see/understand. Otherwise they can only really see the scriptures through the carnal mind. The ENTRANCE of the word giveth light...entrance into the heart, not just the carnal mind.