The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[IndianaRob]

I have never heard such nonsense in my life. What are you on?

Daniel 12:1-3 reveals, “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”

The first thing we need to establish here is: this is describing a general resurrection. This resurrection involves two types of people – the righteous and the wicked; one group rises "to everlasting life" the other to "everlasting contempt." Pretrib or Premil does not believe that. They oppose that. They are therefore fighting with the text. The fact that we see a clear description of the general resurrection of the righteous and the wicked tells us that this is a tribulation that occurs prior to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Not surprisingly, Daniel 12 agrees with the consistent New Testament Scripture. This is one of many passages that prove Amillennialist position. This text totally negates the Premillennial paradigm.

They cannot go anywhere near recognizes the fact there is a general judgment in view here. Your fixation with "many" is a sidetrack from the indisputable reality of a future general resurrection when Jesus comes.

The word here for “many” in the original Hebrew (rab) actually means: the abundance, referring to quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality. It refers to a large number, which may or may not refer to all of something.

In the sense it is used here it includes everyone that is in the grave. Namely: “the abundance of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.”

The all-inclusive resurrection that the Old Testament prophet foresaw is confirmed in the New Testament writings. "All" indeed the dead come forth when Jesus comes. The abundance of the dead are released on that great climatic day.

The only reason you can’t see many but not all is your bias, you can’t read the verse objectively.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The only reason you can’t see many but not all is your bias, you can’t read the verse objectively.

Says the guy who won't even acknowledge that Daniel 12:2 is referring to the bodily resurrection of the dead. Despite the fact that it talks about those who sleep in the dust of the earth being awakened. An obvious reference to people who are physically/bodily dead.

 

[IndianaRob]

Guys I’m on a phone and I have a hard time posting from a phone.

 

[WPM]

The only reason you can’t see many but not all is your bias, you can’t read the verse objectively.

LOL. What a ridiculous evasive response. Do you know how to exegete Scripture? Or do you only know how to hurl insults? Do you have the ability to interpret Scripture which Scripture?

 

[IndianaRob]

Let’s try this.
What is the bare grain in verse 37?
What is the body that the bare grain is given in verse 38?

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:


1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

 

[IndianaRob]

LOL. What a ridiculous evasive response. Do you know how to exegete Scripture? Or do you only know how to hurl insults? Do you have the ability to interpret Scripture which Scripture?

I love you brother I’m not hurling insults I’m trying to help you see.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I challenged postribbers a year ago to provide a passage showing a postrib rapture of the church.
A year later...STILL NO VERSES.

Does the book of Revelation mention the Great Tribulation? If so, what chapter(s)? Knowing this will help me determine when the church is raptured.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I love you brother I’m not hurling insults I’m trying to help you see.

No offense, but you are failing miserably at doing that. Please exegete scripture instead of just sharing opinions. Show exactly how and why you interpret the scriptures the way you do. You will not convince us of anything unless you do that.

 

[Davidpt]

When you gave your teacher an incorrect answer to 2 + 2, did she say that you were dishonest ?

What if after the teacher has corrected the student's mistake, the student is still insisting 2 + 2 = 5? That would not be dishonest?

It's one thing to make a mistake. It's another thing to have the mistake corrected but then disregarding the correction altogether as if there was no mistake made to begin with.

 

[WPM]

I love you brother I’m not hurling insults I’m trying to help you see.

Your ad hominem, belittling and avoidance does not reflect that, or cut it.

 

[IndianaRob]

No offense, but you are failing miserably at doing that. Please exegete scripture instead of just sharing opinions. Show exactly how and why you interpret the scriptures the way you do. You will not convince us of anything unless you do that.

No offense taken.

 

[Douggg]

Are you reading anything I'm saying, Douggg? Do you think it's honest to make up your own definition of the word generation when interpreting Matthew 24:34? Do you think it's honest to claim that Jesus said He would be taking us to heaven when He said no such thing? You can have that opinion if you want, but it's dishonest to make is as if Jesus specifically said that when that is not the case.

When your Sunday school teacher asked you who anointed Solomon as the King of Israel, and you gave a incorrect answer, did she say to you that you are dishonest ?

 

[WPM]

Let’s try this.
What is the bare grain in verse 37?
What is the body that the bare grain is given in verse 38?

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:


1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul is simply contrasting our current bodies which are “terrestrial” bodies with our new resurrection bodies which are “celestial.” He is showing the change that occurs at Christ’s Coming when one is traded for the other. He makes absolutely no suggestion that there are “terrestrial” resurrection bodies and “celestial” resurrection bodies. That is totally absent in the passage. The redeemed are one new man now and will be for all eternity. You cannot cut this body in two.

1 Corinthians 15:40-47 confirms, “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption (perishable); it is raised in incorruption (imperishable): It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.”

The “terrestrial” bodies are shown to be earthly and corruptible. The “celestial” ones are shown to be heavenly and incorruptible. In the resurrection the “terrestrial” is “sown in dishonour” and “in weakness” and is “raised in glory” and “in power.” The first body is Adamic and therefore sinful, the second is heavenly and perfect of the Lord.

 

[WPM]

When your Sunday school teacher asked you who anointed Solomon as the King of Israel, and you gave a incorrect answer, did she say to you that you are dishonest ?

Did you read what David asked?

"What if after the teacher has corrected the student's mistake, the student is still insisting 2 + 2 = 5? That would not be dishonest?

It's one thing to make a mistake. It's another thing to have the mistake corrected but then disregarding the correction altogether as if there was no mistake made to begin with."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let’s try this.
What is the bare grain in verse 37?
What is the body that the bare grain is given in verse 38?

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:


1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

This passage is more clear in other translations like the NIV:

1 Cor 15:37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.

All this passage is saying is that what rises up after a seed is planted is different than what was planted. Wheat, for example, looks nothing like the seed that was planted that ended up turning into wheat. This can be related to how the body we have now, which Paul says is a natural body (1 Cor 15:44) that is corruptible, mortal, dishonorable and weak (1 Cor 15:42-44) will be raised and changed into a spiritual body that is incorruptible, immortal, glorious and powerful (1 Cor 15:42-54).

 

[Douggg]

Did you read what David asked?

"What if after the teacher has corrected the student's mistake, the student is still insisting 2 + 2 = 5? That would not be dishonest?

It's one thing to make a mistake. It's another thing to have the mistake corrected but then disregarding the correction altogether as if there was no mistake made to begin with."

No, it would not be dishonest, but disagreeing.

 

[WPM]

Says the guy who won't even acknowledge that Daniel 12:2 is referring to the bodily resurrection of the dead. Despite the fact that it talks about those who sleep in the dust of the earth being awakened. An obvious reference to people who are physically/bodily dead.

He cannot even explain such folly. It is so far out there. All he can do is avoid and insult.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What if after the teacher has corrected the student's mistake, the student is still insisting 2 + 2 = 5? That would not be dishonest?

It's one thing to make a mistake. It's another thing to have the mistake corrected but then disregarding the correction altogether as if there was no mistake made to begin with.

That's what I'm talking about when I have corrected him several times in relation to him claiming that the word "generation" refers to the human life span in Matthew 24:34 even though that definition of the word generation does not exist. But, despite my having corrected him about that, he continues to make up his own definition of the word to make Matthew 24:34 say what he wants it to say which is that he thinks "this generation" started in 1967 and will last until 2037. That's 70 years which is the average human life span according to Psalm 90:10. But, the word "generation" never means the human life span.

 

[IndianaRob]

In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul is simply contrasting our current bodies which are “terrestrial” bodies with our new resurrection bodies which are “celestial.” He is showing the change that occurs at Christ’s Coming when one is traded for the other. He makes absolutely no suggestion that there are “terrestrial” resurrection bodies and “celestial” resurrection bodies. That is totally absent in the passage. The redeemed are one new man now and will be for all eternity. You cannot cut this body in two.

1 Corinthians 15:40-47 confirms, “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption (perishable); it is raised in incorruption (imperishable): It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.”

The “terrestrial” bodies are shown to be earthly and corruptible. The “celestial” ones are shown to be heavenly and incorruptible. In the resurrection the “terrestrial” is “sown in dishonour” and “in weakness” and is “raised in glory” and “in power.” The first body is Adamic and therefore sinful, the second is heavenly and perfect of the Lord.

What is the seed that gets put into the terrestrial body? Simple question, what does the seed represent?

 

[IndianaRob]

This passage is more clear in other translations like the NIV:

1 Cor 15:37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.

All this passage is saying is that what rises up after a seed is planted is different than what was planted. Wheat, for example, looks nothing like the seed that was planted that ended up turning into wheat. This can be related to how the body we have now, which Paul says is a natural body (1 Cor 15:44) that is corruptible, mortal, dishonorable and weak (1 Cor 15:42-44) will be raised and changed into a spiritual body that is incorruptible, immortal, glorious and powerful (1 Cor 15:42-54).

You quoted this - 1 Cor 15:37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.

What is the seed that God gives a body to? Just a simple question, what is the seed?