The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

The seventh trumpet third woe covers the time spans of the first and second woes of the fifth and sixth trumpets.

LOL! No, it does not. That is utter lunacy and complete nonsense of epic proportions. It very clearly indicates that the third woe (seventh trumpet) doesn't occur until after the first two woes (fifth and sixth trumpets) have finished.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Why do you miss the most obvious things, Douggg? Why do you continually try to make scripture say what you want it to say? Why are you so delusional and dishonest? This very clearly indicates that the third woe comes AFTER the second woe is PAST. Hello? Wake up. This is like talking about 1 + 1 = 2. Do you think it equals 3, Douggg? Come on. Give us a break with your nonsense already.

It is not a matter of numerical sequence that the time-frame of each woe actions must follow.

LOL. Oh, really? So, do you also think this about the seals and the vials?

Just as the events of the 7th seal begin before the event of the 6th seal.

Wow, you do think that. LOL. Why are they called the first, second, third...if they are not in order? LOL. Are you for real? Or are you going to reveal that you're just playing a big joke on everyone with your nonsense? How about the vials? What order do you put those in?

Prove that isn't so.

7 comes after 6. Done.

 

[Keraz]

7 comes after 6. Done.

This is obvious.
People who have to play fast and loose with scripture, esp Revelation, immediately demonstrate their errors.

Those who have to shuffle the given order of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls, are wrong and they promote such theories at the risk of incurring the curse of Rev 22:18-19
Also to say: 'Taking a literal, futuristic and chronological approach to interpreting the book of Revelation is the worst possible approach to interpreting the book'. Quote S.I.

You said that Isaiah 14:18-20, is fulfilled.
It was not fulfilled in Isaiah's time, so when was it?

 

[Douggg]

Wow, you do think that. LOL. Why are they called the first, second, third...if they are not in order? .....

The 7th seal event reveals the 7 trumpet plagues.

Those plagues take place before the 6th seal event, the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

Therefore, prove that the 7 trumpet plagues (of the seventh seal) come after the sign of the Son of Man in heaven (of the sixth seal).

 

[Douggg]

It very clearly indicates that the third woe (seventh trumpet) doesn't occur until after the first two woes (fifth and sixth trumpets) have finished.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 11:14, is saying that John had been shown what the second woe would be (a third of mankind killed by a 200,000,000 size army) and that he would shortly be shown what the third woe will be.

You have yet to place where the time, times, half time that Satan will have left occurs in relation to Jesus's Second Coming.

You said back in the first century, following Jesus's resurrection. But that cannot be the case because Satan still roams about, like a lion, seeking who he can devour.

 

[rwb]

Revelation 11:14, is saying that John had been shown what the second woe would be (a third of mankind killed by a 200,000,000 size army) and that he would shortly be shown what the third woe will be.

You have yet to place where the time, times, half time that Satan will have left occurs in relation to Jesus Second Coming.

You said back in the first century, following Jesus's resurrection. But that cannot be the case because Satan still roams about, like a lion, seeking who he can devour.

Where do you get that Satan is given time, times and half time in the Revelation???

 

[Douggg]

Where do you get that Satan is given time, times and half time in the Revelation???

In Revelation 12:14.

Revelation 12 is about Satan's efforts to destroy the woman - Israel.

In Revelation 12:14, the Jews who heed Jesus's words to flee into the wilderness right away when the abomination of desolation is standing the holy place, are protected from the face of the serpent (Satan) for a time, times, half time until Jesus returns to have Satan cast into the bottomless pit.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

 

[Douggg]

Wow, you do think that. LOL. Why are they called the first, second, third...if they are not in order? LOL. Are you for real? Or are you going to reveal that you're just playing a big joke on everyone with your nonsense? How about the vials? What order do you put those in?

The vials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7. As shown on my chart. Everything is in numerical sequence, except the 7th trumpet which is broader than any of the individual other trumpets and vials in duration.

Which, unique to the 7th trumpet, it says in Revelation 10:7 that in the days of the voice of the 7th angel the mystery of God will be fulfilled - which that mystery is God removing Satan's impact over the nations.

 

[WPM]

LOL! No, it does not. That is utter lunacy and complete nonsense of epic proportions. It very clearly indicates that the third woe (seventh trumpet) doesn't occur until after the first two woes (fifth and sixth trumpets) have finished.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Why do you miss the most obvious things, Douggg? Why do you continually try to make scripture say what you want it to say? Why are you so delusional and dishonest? This very clearly indicates that the third woe comes AFTER the second woe is PAST. Hello? Wake up. This is like talking about 1 + 1 = 2. Do you think it equals 3, Douggg? Come on. Give us a break with your nonsense already.


LOL. Oh, really? So, do you also think this about the seals and the vials?


Wow, you do think that. LOL. Why are they called the first, second, third...if they are not in order? LOL. Are you for real? Or are you going to reveal that you're just playing a big joke on everyone with your nonsense? How about the vials? What order do you put those in?


7 comes after 6. Done.

Exactly bro! Excellent post. He is totally blinded by Pretrib. It is impossible for him to be objective.

Pretrib is getting totally demolished on this thread and he has no answer. They have no proof-texts.

 

[WPM]

The vials 1,2,3,4,5,6,7. As shown on my chart. Everything is in numerical sequence, except the 7th trumpet which is broader than any of the individual other trumpets and vials in duration.

Which, unique to the 7th trumpet, it says in Revelation 10:7 that in the days of the voice of the 7th angel the mystery of God will be fulfilled - which that mystery is God removing Satan's impact over the nations.



View attachment 49093

Who cares about your charts? We only discuss Scripture. It demolishes your charts.

 

[Douggg]

Who cares about your charts? We only discuss Scripture. It demolishes your charts.

Timeline charts show how the pieces of the end times bible prophecies puzzle fit together.

 

[Douggg]

They have no proof-texts.

You have no timeline charts of how the pieces of the end times bible prophecies puzzle fit together.

 

[WPM]

Timeline charts show how the pieces of the end times bible prophecies puzzle fit together.

View attachment 49129

Daniel 9 is historic. You have avoided every question i have asked you. That is because you have to. They expose Pretrib.

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

 

[WPM]

You have no timeline charts of how the pieces of the end times bible prophecies puzzle fit together.

When Jesus comes that is it! Real easy!

I do not believe in phony man-made charts that you have been taught.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 9 is historic. You have avoided every question i have asked you. That is because you have to. They expose Pretrib.

I have responded to those questions already.

I am not Pre-trib view, but anytime rapture view. I presented charts of both view that show the difference.

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?

There is not "a tribulation" mentioned in Daniel 9. There is a seven year 70th week in Daniel 9:27, that corresponds to the seven years of Ezekiel 39:9 that follow the coming Gog/Magog event.

And I never use the term "the tribulation", nor "the trib". "tribulation" as used in Pre-tribulation, Mid-tribulation, Post-tribulation are ALL misnomers. What is implied is the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9. Which that 7 years is not all tribulation, as for much of the first half the world will be saying peace and safety.

2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?

It is not. I am not saying it is.

3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?

The rapture/resurrection is not in Daniel 9. I have never said it was.

4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?

A faulty question. Pre-tribbers believe in the Second Coming of Christ to this earth, to stand on the Mt. of Olives, splitting it in half. As well as I hold that same position in my Anytime Rapture view.

5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?

In Daniel 9:23-24, to seal up the vision that Daniel had when he first encountered Gabriel in Daniel 8 regarding the little horn which in Daniel 8:17, Gabriel said "time of the end".

Ezekiel 39 verifies that the 7 years are forthcoming as Jesus's Second Coming is in Ezekiel 39:21-29.

6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?

The term "anitchrist" is not spelled out as such in Daniel 9. The antichrist person though is the prince who shall come, who will confirm the covenant with many for 7 years.

7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?

It doesn't. That idea, popularly taught, comes from Daniel 8:25 that the little horn person (the Antichrist) destroys many by peace. The covenant in Daniel 9:27 is referring to the covenant Daniel confessed in his opening prayer in Daniel 9 that his people had broken... i.e. the Mt Sinai covenant.

The for 7 years is in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?

The term "antichrist" is not in Daniel 9. The covenant is not a peace covenant. The covenant is the Mt. Sinai covenant, which established the daily sacrifice and oblation, referred to in Daniel 9:27. The prince who shall come (as the Antichrist) will stop those in the midst of the 7 year 70th week in Daniel 9:27. And cause the temple to be desolate by abominations (abomination of desolation setup and other desecration's)

9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?

I don't use the term "the tribulation saints". I use the term "the great tribulation saints". Neither term is found in Daniel 9, and pre-tribbers don't claim that it is.

10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

It does not mention a third temple being built in Daniel 9 directly. But for the prince who shall come, i.e. the time of the end little horn person of Daniel 8:11-13, to stop the daily sacrifice and oblation there has to be a third temple present for that to take place.

Okay, I have responded to all your questions. Now, you and @Spiritual Israelite answer my one question. When does the time, times, half time in Revelation 12:12-14 that Satan will have left take place ? Satan is still roaming the earth, like a lion, seeking who he can devour - so don't tell me that it has already happened.

The time, times, half time is on my chart below in the shaded bar at the bottom. Don't respond by calling me a bunch of names and degrading remarks. Just answer my one question.

 

[Douggg]

When Jesus comes that is it! Real easy!

So, you agree that the time, times, half time that Satan will have left in Revelation 12:12-14 - ends at Jesus's Second Coming ?

 

[Douggg]

 

[rwb]

In Revelation 12:14.

Revelation 12 is about Satan's efforts to destroy the woman - Israel.

In Revelation 12:14, the Jews who heed Jesus's words to flee into the wilderness right away when the abomination of desolation is standing the holy place, are protected from the face of the serpent (Satan) for a time, times, half time until Jesus returns to have Satan cast into the bottomless pit.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

You said: "The seventh trumpet signals the time, times, half time that Satan will have left, as he will be cast down to earth."

You're ignoring Rev 10 where John writes that when the seventh trumpet begins to sound there should be time no longer. You haven't explained how there can be time, times and half a time when time shall be no longer???

 

[rebuilder 454]

Beware, when you marginalize someone, you give yourself permission to disrespect them. Did our Lord teach us to disrespect each other?

The dude has some underlying issues.
Seems like a very unhappy individual.
He actually hates those challenging his "doctrine".

 

[rebuilder 454]

The story of Lazarus and the rich man is not meant to be taken literally. Jesus is telling a parable based on Hebrew mythology about Hades. The parable is set in a fictional place called Abraham's bosom, which is not a real place. It's important to understand that Jesus didn't actually preach to those in Hades.

No
I has real names and events.
It does not qualify as a parable.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No
I has real names and events.
It does not qualify as a parable.

Lazarus is a person
Abraham also
Hades an actual place
Paradise is where the patriarchs were held until the cross.