A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[rebuilder 454]

We believe God no longer has a place for natural Israel because of their continued disobedience and rebellious attitude. God has cast them off and chosen a new Israel…..”the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) these are not just fleshly Jews, but include gentiles.

I looked them up and can’t understand why any JW would balk at them.

In context, Acts 1:11 is the angels‘ telling Jesus’ disciples “the manner” of his return, after he had ascended into Heaven….
“After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight. 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, suddenly two men in white garments stood beside them 11 and said: “Men of Galʹi·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.”

Acts 3:19-21…
”Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old.”

This is telling us that Jesus would remain in heaven until it is time to restore God’s first purpose, prophesied through his prophets of old. David spoke of this as a waiting period. (Psalm 110:1-2)

Perhaps you can tell us why you think these verses would trouble us? And how you interpret them….?

But having said that, referring back to Matt 10:11-14, in a door to door, one on one setting, we are not to stay if its just to argue….a person’s response dictates whether we stay or leave, “shaking the dust off”. We are to move on to the next door. (Acts 20:20)
The internet provides a way for others to join in and listen to the conversation. So we sometimes stay and clarify points of disagreement.

Have you found the NWT to be easy to read and understand?

We don’t have that attitude…it’s more important to live up to 1 Cor 1:10….to ‘all be in agreement, with no divisions among us.’ There are not many versions of the truth…there has to be just one.

It is interesting to discuss disagreements and unpack Scripture a bit….delving into context and discovering more about the big picture……as long as we can keep it civil….no need for the nastiness we have seen from certain ones here who think they know so much, when they really know nothing much at all. They have an
opinion and so does everyone here……the truth is, we can’t all be right….Jesus will tell us if we are wrong.

By Jesus being God,( equal to the Father, but not the Father), His being is way past a "ontology" with the Father.
If you play it from the " backside", then another picture emerges.
What if He was not God.
What changes.
1) the cross is made null and void.
2) we would not have a kinsman redeemer
3) all the requirements of the OT animal sacrifice ( innocent blood) would not have been necessary..
4) He could not resurrect Himself
5) His blood presented to the Father in Heb 9 could not possibly be accepted.
IOW, WE would need something more to be saved, because a man on the cross, as opposed to a "God Man", could not possibly be perfect, nor could he be a kinsman redeemer.
Put any good man on the cross, and he would be buried and rot.
No power. No spotlessness. No redemption.

To be redeemed, ( us) , is to be purchased, or bought back.
A mere mortal, has no power or standing.
Read Ruth.
Only a kinsman with wealth ( power) could qualify to redeem the property.
Jesus by being God and man is the only God Man that could redeem man kind.

Rev 5
"....and no man was found in heaven or earth to open the seals."
Only a God-man could open them.

It is a mighty, mighty act of God to give His Son.
Jesus= Son.
Son of God.
Same essence and Spirit, and being.

Man makes a statue.
Man BEGETS a son.

Why are so many, many humans trying so hard to make Jesus a "statue" or created being.
Salvation has been presented to us in living color.
Unbelievably vivid and simple.

It, once revealed ( never understood in a million years) ,brings one to their knees, disarms us, and overwhelms us.

Jesus deity and Sonship, is revealed...never understood.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

Perhaps you can compare the NWT with other translations? I hear people make all kinds of complaints and yet when I consult Biblegateway and it’s many translations, along with Strongs Concordance, I see the NWT as the most accurate.

While I was looking up Genesis 3:1 in the NWT I decided to consider Psalm 8 and I was interested in the following:
Psalm 8:5 (NWT Internet Study Bible): You made him a little lower than godlike ones (margin: or, than angels),*And you crowned him with glory and splendor.
The Hebrew word is "Elohim" and the KJV and the NWT margin have "angels" which I suggest is the better rendition in the context than "godlike beings", even though the NWT here is interesting and to some extent helpful. Hebrews 2 also endorses the translation "angels". Perhaps we need to elaborate as to why "angels" is correct but I consider Hebrews 2 is a Divinely inspired endorsement of "angels" here. It is not a matter of if, but, maybe, but God given and we should start here. Give me a good reason why not to accept Hebrews 2.

Could you elaborate on those points…or perhaps you have done so in your other thread?
I have not had time to read it yet. Perhaps after my convention is over I will get time…

I hope you have a nice time at your convention. Please take your time in answering this post when you get back home. You seem to want to defend the NWT "cautious" but the NWT Study Bible margin has "shrewdest, craftiest".
Genesis 3:1 (NWT Internet Study Bible): Now the serpent was the most cautious (margin shrewdest, craftiest) of all the wild animals of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it said to the woman: “Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?”
So what is your view of a NWT marginal rendition? Does the NWT almost gain your 100% support, or are the marginal notes on this edition of the NWT permissible and even possibly more correct? If the book "Let God be True" or another JW publication uses "cautious" as the basis of a few comments, does this lock in the original NWT rendition? My impression is that at least one of the JW scholars realised that "cautious" in the Genesis 3:1 context does not make a lot of sense. The serpent did not seem to be very cautious in my estimation. The serpent was not more "cautious as a kitten".

We follow the first century model….where there was a governing body in Jerusalem, made up of the apostles and older men, who were the central teaching body for all the congregations of Christ’s disciples.
If doctrinal matters arose, these were the ones to resolve it. The circumcision issue was one of those occasions. (Acts ch 15).

Is it a matter of only trying to follow the first century model, or are you convinced that the JWs and their GB are the true modern representatives of Christianity and the GB are Spirit-guided and believers need to accept their authority as if it was directly from God?

All meetings are conducted and scheduled by our Governing Body, so that the global brotherhood all teach the same truths, and preach the same message…..what purpose would it serve if we all just rattled off our own thoughts and opinions? God’s spirit promotes unity….not disunity.

I suggest that what would be produced by the GB and those that help them would be very limited and of poor quality. My assessment is based on the literature that is available and a few talks that I have heard.

The “body of Christ” are the anointed…..those chosen to rule with Christ in heaven, as “kings and priests” (Rev 20:6) All our members are baptized but only the anointed are partakers as members belonging to Christ in a special way, hand picked by God for a heavenly assignment. These will make up “the new heavens” who will rule over “the new earth”, (2 Peter 3:13) where righteousness is to dwell.

I believe that Christ will rule from Jerusalem for the 1000 years Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14, Matthew 19:28, Acts 1:11, Acts 3:19-21. I find it remarkable that JWs exclude Abraham and David in their sub-division of the 144,000. I believe in ONE body of believers.

The preaching of the gospel of the kingdom, was to continue right up to “the end”….we follow the lead of the first Christians who were sent out to the people….they did not sit in a building waiting for people to come to them…

Many of the people that come are by personal invitation, but some by our advertising in the free local monthly magazine. We list the topics of the next four meetings and depending on the subject have a fairly wide audience.

We believe God no longer has a place for natural Israel because of their continued disobedience and rebellious attitude. God has cast them off and chosen a new Israel…..”the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) these are not just fleshly Jews, but include gentiles.

Ezekiel 38 and 39, Zechariah 14 and Romans 11 teaches me that there will be a significant remnant of natural Israel converted when Christ returns. There are other mortal nations that survive Armageddon and they will be subjected and will learn the ways of God Isaiah 2:1-4. The JWs effectively wipe out everyone who is not a JW.

I looked them up and can’t understand why any JW would balk at them. ... In context, Acts 1:11 is the angels‘ telling Jesus’ disciples “the manner” of his return, after he had ascended into Heaven….This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky .... he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things... Perhaps you can tell us why you think these verses would trouble us? And how you interpret them….?

Both teach that Jesus will no longer be in heaven.

But having said that, referring back to Matt 10:11-14, in a door to door, one on one setting, we are not to stay if its just to argue….a person’s response dictates whether we stay or leave, “shaking the dust off”. We are to move on to the next door. (Acts 20:20)
The internet provides a way for others to join in and listen to the conversation. So we sometimes stay and clarify points of disagreement.

Yes, I am very conscious of the JW method. If you do not accept their teaching 100% then they will quickly leave. It is part of their conviction that from the GB down, the JWs are the chosen people and teach and preach 100% God's message and if you do not accept them 100% it is time to move on. I expect that type of treatment here soon. A JW will consider that he has done his duty. He will rarely seriously consider what the other person has discovered from his own study and meditation of the Word of God. The only source of light is considered to be from the GB downwards.

Have you found the NWT to be easy to read and understand?

I have rarely opened it. One JW friend at work when I asked him suggested that the black NWT was a significant improvement on the green NWT. I like the RV OT and they have improved some of the poetical portions of the OT. I am not sure if the NWT copied most of these.

We don’t have that attitude…it’s more important to live up to 1 Cor 1:10….to ‘all be in agreement, with no divisions among us.’ There are not many versions of the truth…there has to be just one.

I have found over the years that having been presented two perspectives on some aspects of the Bible allowed me to draw my own conclusions, with a richer and deeper understanding of some passages and concepts. On a scale of 1 to 10 on a particular subject my grandfather presented to me a view that I considered both then and now to be outside the acceptable limit, and I consider as a result of his and other's discussions that I am now in the range of 4 or 5. I still encounter a few in the 1-2 or 8-9 range, but I am able to briefly answer them in my mind at least if not verbally. I would definitely reject the JW "you must believe this".

It is interesting to discuss disagreements and unpack Scripture a bit….delving into context and discovering more about the big picture……as long as we can keep it civil….no need for the nastiness we have seen from certain ones here who think they know so much, when they really know nothing much at all. They have an opinion and so does everyone here……the truth is, we can’t all be right….Jesus will tell us if we are wrong.

Yes, perhaps some of what I have written above is a bit harsh.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Runningman]

By Jesus being God,( equal to the Father, but not the Father),

John 10
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 14
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

His being is way past a "ontology" with the Father.
If you play it from the " backside", then another picture emerges.
What if He was not God.
What changes.
1) the cross is made null and void.
2) we would not have a kinsman redeemer
3) all the requirements of the OT animal sacrifice ( innocent blood) would not have been necessary..
4) He could not resurrect Himself
5) His blood presented to the Father in Heb 9 could not possibly be accepted.
IOW, WE would need something more to be saved, because a man on the cross, as opposed to a "God Man", could not possibly be perfect, nor could he be a kinsman redeemer.
Put any good man on the cross, and he would be buried and rot.
No power. No spotlessness. No redemption.

If Jesus is God then he didn't die and there would be no sin sacrifice.

To be redeemed, ( us) , is to be purchased, or bought back.
A mere mortal, has no power or standing.
Read Ruth.
Only a kinsman with wealth ( power) could qualify to redeem the property.
Jesus by being God and man is the only God Man that could redeem man kind.

Purchased with the blood of a man. God is an invisible Spirit and He doesn't have blood.

Revelation 5
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5
"....and no man was found in heaven or earth to open the seals."
Only a God-man could open them.

That verse doesn't say God-man. It says a man.

It is a mighty, mighty act of God to give His Son.
Jesus= Son.
Son of God.
Same essence and Spirit, and being.

Many Sons of God in the Bible who are not God.

Man makes a statue.
Man BEGETS a son.

Men are creatures. Therefore men as God is called idolatry if they are deified and/or worshipped as such.

Why are so many, many humans trying so hard to make Jesus a "statue" or created being.
Salvation has been presented to us in living color.
Unbelievably vivid and simple.

See above.

It, once revealed ( never understood in a million years) ,brings one to their knees, disarms us, and overwhelms us.

Jesus deity and Sonship, is revealed...never understood.

If it is not understood then how could you possibly attempt to tell anyone anything about it with any credibility?

 

[rebuilder 454]

John 10
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 14
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

If Jesus is God then he didn't die and there would be no sin sacrifice.

Purchased with the blood of a man. God is an invisible Spirit and He doesn't have blood.

Revelation 5
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

That verse doesn't say God-man. It says a man.

Many Sons of God in the Bible who are not God.


Men are creatures. Therefore men as God is called idolatry if they are deified and/or worshipped as such.


See above.


If it is not understood then how could you possibly attempt to tell anyone anything about it with any credibility?

I am sorry you have such a misunderstanding of who Jesus is.
Why do you attempt to correct someone when you have such a lack understanding?

 

[Runningman]

I am sorry you have such a misunderstanding of who Jesus is.
Why do you attempt to correct someone when you have such a lack understanding?

I am under no impression you are able to receive correction, but perhaps someone will benefit from it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I am under no impression you are able to receive correction, but perhaps someone will benefit from it.

Oh the irony!
A person that is confoosed about salvation and who Jesus is.

You need a ton of instruction.


Lol.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Double post

 

[Aunty Jane]

While I was looking up Genesis 3:1 in the NWT I decided to consider Psalm 8 and I was interested in the following:
Psalm 8:5 (NWT Internet Study Bible): You made him a little lower than godlike ones (margin: or, than angels),*And you crowned him with glory and splendor.
The Hebrew word is "Elohim" and the KJV and the NWT margin have "angels" which I suggest is the better rendition in the context than "godlike beings", even though the NWT here is interesting and to some extent helpful. Hebrews 2 also endorses the translation "angels". Perhaps we need to elaborate as to why "angels" is correct but I consider Hebrews 2 is a Divinely inspired endorsement of "angels" here. It is not a matter of if, but, maybe, but God given and we should start here. Give me a good reason why not to accept Hebrews 2.

The NWT is well researched, so after many years of study, I trust it’s renderings. Since angels are also called “gods” in the sense of the Greek word “theos”, meaning “god-like “ or “divine” or “someone acting under God’s authority”….(like the judges in Israel. John 10:31-36)….we have no illusions about who “the son of God” is, and who “sent” him. (John 17:3)

Angels are also endowed with God’s qualities, so “god-like ones” is a valid alternative rendering.
You are free to accept whatever rendering you wish.

I hope you have a nice time at your convention.

Thank you, it was very instructive and added much to our education. It was focused on Jesus and the preaching work….it took us on a tour of the lands where Jesus walked and focused on the scriptures that survived the ravages of time on both papyrus and parchment….telling his story and making it more real.
Three whole days of Bible instruction…..a spiritual paradise.

Please take your time in answering this post when you get back home. You seem to want to defend the NWT "cautious" but the NWT Study Bible margin has "shrewdest, craftiest".
Genesis 3:1 (NWT Internet Study Bible): Now the serpent was the most cautious (margin shrewdest, craftiest) of all the wild animals of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it said to the woman: “Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?”
So what is your view of a NWT marginal rendition? Does the NWT almost gain your 100% support, or are the marginal notes on this edition of the NWT permissible and even possibly more correct?

I have answered this before…..”cautious” is a legitimate translation IMO….so if the marginal reference is “shrewdest , craftiest”….or “prudent” it is also a legitimate rendering….meaning…“a wise and well-thought-through decision or action.” Does that not describe what the devil did? His rebellion was deliberately planned….and “well thought out”. He targeted the woman to tempt the man….Adam was the one through whom the human race was cursed with sin and death….not the woman. (Rom 5:12) She was deceived…he was not.

If the book "Let God be True" or another JW publication uses "cautious" as the basis of a few comments, does this lock in the original NWT rendition? My impression is that at least one of the JW scholars realised that "cautious" in the Genesis 3:1 context does not make a lot of sense. The serpent did not seem to be very cautious in my estimation. The serpent was not more "cautious as a kitten".

Our books are not viewed as scripture….old books are a bit like old newspapers to us…sometimes the news goes out of date…..we have updated a lot of publications as well as the 2013 NWT.
The progressive revelation of truth is not stagnant, but ongoing…..it is “what we need to know, when we need to know it“. (Matt 24:45)

Is it a matter of only trying to follow the first century model, or are you convinced that the JWs and their GB are the true modern representatives of Christianity and the GB are Spirit-guided and believers need to accept their authority as if it was directly from God?

In his prophesy on the end times, Jesus said that he would appoint a “faithful and discreet slave“ to give his entire household their “food at the proper time”. We believe that our Governing Body are the appointed “slave” who “feed“ the rest of us “our food at the proper time”.…..(Matt 24:45) There is only one truth…and we believe we have it….how else could we preach one united message in “the entire inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations” before “the end” comes? (Matt 24:14)

The “faithful and discreet slave“ exist because Jesus appointed “him” in this time of the end….in the “last days” before Christ comes as judge of all of us. So Jesus asked “who is“ this slave?
Who is he to you? If we do not identify him and feed at his table, we will be feeding at the only other table there is……a veritable smorgasbord of spiritual poison. (1 Cor 10:21)

It makes sense that in order to keep his disciples well fed spiritually, there would be one body dispensing spiritual food to one household of fellow servants….”one Lord, one faith, one baptism”.

Our GB have never claimed to be prophets, but it is only in this “time of the end” that God foretold through Daniel about a “cleansing, whitening and refining” of his people at this point in history. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10)
We were not the only ones to ‘awaken’ at this time however, as at the turn of last century, mainstream Christendom was losing its grip on the people. The “great awakening” was taking place but satan was not going to allow the “sheep” and to be easily identified, so he did what he has always done, and created a bunch of counterfeits…all claiming to teach the truth and sometimes very close in their beliefs……as if the mainstream denominations of Christendom were not confusing enough….

 

[Aunty Jane]

I believe that Christ will rule from Jerusalem for the 1000 years Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14, Matthew 19:28, Acts 1:11, Acts 3:19-21. I find it remarkable that JWs exclude Abraham and David in their sub-division of the 144,000. I believe in ONE body of believers.

We too believe in “ONE body” of believers who belong to Christ.
When Jesus arrives to “separate the sheep from the goats”, at the judgment, he tells the “sheep” that they have done good deeds to his “brothers” and that is the basis upon which they will receive salvation. There are those who are Christ’s ”brothers” and the “sheep” who do good deeds for them because they are Christ’s brothers…..the “goats” OTOH, are told that because they failed to do good to Christ’s brothers, and so they will miss out on everlasting life. (Matt 25:31-34; 40, 41, 46)

So you think they are all Christ’s “brothers”? Why would he make the distinction?

When Israel failed to fill the numbers of those who would rule with Christ in his Kingdom, as “kings and priests”, (Rev 20:6) he turned to the Gentiles to fill the number…144,000, who are “bought from among mankind as firstfruits”…..as this agricultural nation was well aware, the “firstfruits” are the pick of the crop, but are followed by the secondary crop, not of the same quality, but which still serve their purpose.

Rev 14:1-5, we see reference to “the 144,000”….
“Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.”

“Firstfruits” indicate that there are a second group of saved Christians, who are not “chosen” for a role in heaven, but will serve their God happily on earth, transformed back into paradise conditions…for them to enjoy for all eternity, fulfilling their role as God originally intended.
John saw these ones in Rev 7:9-10; 13-17…after seeing the 144,000 in heaven with God and the Lamb, he describes another group, attributing their salvation to God and his Christ….

”After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”. . . . In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15. . . . and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”
(See also Rev 21:2-4 where redeemed “mankind” are blessed with everlasting life on earth, just as God purposed in the beginning, ‘spreading his tent over them’….removing all causes for pain and suffering.)

Ezekiel 38 and 39, Zechariah 14 and Romans 11 teaches me that there will be a significant remnant of natural Israel converted when Christ returns. There are other mortal nations that survive Armageddon and they will be subjected and will learn the ways of God Isaiah 2:1-4. The JWs effectively wipe out everyone who is not a JW.

The prophesied “remnant” of natural Israel who will rule with Christ in his Kingdom were those who chose to break away from the corrupt religious system that Judaism became, and followed Christ. That is why Gentiles were added to make up the number of spiritual Israel, because natural Israel had murdered their own Messiah.
Acts 2:36-38…
”Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were stabbed to the heart, and they said to Peter and the rest of the apostles: “Men, brothers, what should we do?” 38 Peter said to them: “Repent, and let each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins”…
Unless Jews repent, and accept Jesus as Messiah, they will not be saved…..the door of opportunity is not closed to anyone before God says it is….

 

[Aunty Jane]

Both teach that Jesus will no longer be in heaven.

Jesus is not coming back to the earth in human form….neither are his anointed ones.
John 14:18-19…
”I will not leave you bereaved. I am coming to you. 19 In a little while the world will see me no more, but you will see me, because I live and you will live.”
Jesus returned to heaven at God’s right hand, awaiting certain circumstances to become manifest….

In prophesy David said….
”Jehovah declared to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
2 Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying:
“Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”

So Jehovah was going to place Christ’s “enemies as a stool for his feet”….when that situation was reached, Jesus was to then “go subduing in the midst of his enemies”…..his rulership would begin with his enemies clearly identified, and his rulership acknowledged firstly by those whom God chose to be his ”joint heirs”.
This will be the ruling body in God’s Kingdom…to bring redeemed mankind back into reconciliation with God on earth. It doesn’t mean Jesus is here on earth because “the new heavens” rules mankind on “the new earth”. (2 Pet 3:13)…..neither of these references are literal. There will not be a new universe or a new planet Earth….both were created perfect…..it is what these represent that will undergo change. A new sinless earthly society, ruled from heaven as it should have been at the beginning.

Yes, I am very conscious of the JW method. If you do not accept their teaching 100% then they will quickly leave.

Since the preaching of “the good news of the Kingdom” was to be carried out until “the end” of this current world system, (Matt 24:14) it was the method used by the first Christians to bring their message of salvation to the people and allow them to make their choice, (Matt 10:11-14)…..to respond in either a positive or negative way….since there is no fence to sit on, we are to give people every opportunity to respond to the kingdom message….but the choice is theirs, not ours. We are not there to force anyone to believe anything….if a person does not respond, we will bid them farewell until another time….circumstances in life change, and someone who refuses to listen, sometimes for years, can completely change their minds and start to ask questions. It happens often to us. God will “draw” such ones at the right time. (John 6:44)

It is part of their conviction that from the GB down, the JWs are the chosen people and teach and preach 100% God's message and if you do not accept them 100% it is time to move on. I expect that type of treatment here soon.

That is entirely your prerogative…you can listen and respond….or listen and reject….or not listen at all…..
That is completely out of our hands…..we are only the messengers.

A JW will consider that he has done his duty. He will rarely seriously consider what the other person has discovered from his own study and meditation of the Word of God. The only source of light is considered to be from the GB downwards.

There is only one truth…..so why would we listen to those who do not teach the truth? If your truth is different to mine, then so be it….that is not my call. Jesus is the judge…remember? It is he who calls those shots because he sends his disciples out to declare his truth….you can accept it or reject it….the message is there to either attract or repel…..it has both responses and we accept what people decide…..Jesus never ran after anyone, but presented his truth and allowed the hearts of individuals to decide.

This is all we offer….take it or leave it…..we expect the majority to leave it, convinced otherwise. Wasn’t it the same in Jesus’ day? (John 15:18-21)
When was the last time a Christadelphian called at my door to offer the good news? (Acts 20:20)

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane, (Part 1)

Angels are also endowed with God’s qualities, so “god-like ones” is a valid alternative rendering.
You are free to accept whatever rendering you wish.

Yes, I prefer "angels" as it directly gives who the Psalmist is talking about. The LXX, KJV and some modern translations have "angels", but others are similar to the NWT and have "heavenly beings". At least the NWT do not translate this as "God" as does some of the modern translations.

it was very instructive and added much to our education. It was focused on Jesus and the preaching work….it took us on a tour of the lands where Jesus walked and focused on the scriptures that survived the ravages of time on both papyrus and parchment….telling his story and making it more real.
Three whole days of Bible instruction…..a spiritual paradise.

That sounds beneficial and interesting. Our present Bible Class is considering the last day of Jesus' life starting in John 13 and the parallel records. The same speaker from a neighbouring Ecclesia considered in a couple of classes some time back the three Jewish trials and the three Gentile trials of Jesus. This is from his own personal studies. He is also the Head Master of our regional Primary and Secondary School, and as a result we have a greater retention rate among the Young People.

Does that not describe what the devil did?

Where we differ in this incident is that it was the serpent who was subtil (KJV), not the devil. The serpent was an animal and was given the ability to reason and speak. From observation and reasoning he added up two and two and came up with five, or in other words he got some things right, but came up with a lie. The serpent was also punished for the lie that he promulgated to the woman.

The progressive revelation of truth is not stagnant, but ongoing…..it is “what we need to know, when we need to know it“. (Matt 24:45)

I suggest that this is the "method" used to correct prior mistakes and wrong statements and change some doctrines.

In his prophesy on the end times, Jesus said that he would appoint a “faithful and discreet slave“ to give his entire household their “food at the proper time”. We believe that our Governing Body are the appointed “slave” who “feed“ the rest of us “our food at the proper time”.…..(Matt 24:45)

I consider that this is not speaking about a latter day GB, but the responsibility of every believer to seek the truth and help others in their spiritual walk. Some are better than others at exposition and speaking, such as the brother I mentioned and some of our senior expositors in our meeting. One of these gave an excellent exposition of Isaiah over many years. Definitely he did not receive the script of his talks from any central authority supplied script. A brother in Adelaide did a similar series and it is interesting to compare the two expositions on some chapters. I have copies of ALL these Bible Class talks. Another brother from Adelaide has now issued his commentary on Isaiah 1-23 and again there are some minor differences. I suggest that the concept of GB's would stifle private study and proper progress. Before I engaged in this thread I added a thread "A Few Thoughts on Psalm 1" and I suggest this speaks of the need for personal study and meditation of the Word.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane, (Part 2 of 2)

We too believe in “ONE body” of believers who belong to Christ.

I believe that there is "ONE body" of the saved from Adam until the return of Christ. This ONE body will inherit the blessings promised to Abraham including the Land of Israel. There are not two groups, one in heaven, the other on the earth. The Kingdom will be centred in Jerusalem with Jesus sitting upon the Temple Throne of David for the 1000 years. I have added a thread "Psalm 72 - The Kingdom of God Soon to be Established upon the Earth".

The prophesied “remnant” of natural Israel who will rule with Christ in his Kingdom were those who chose to break away from the corrupt religious system that Judaism became, and followed Christ.

Ezekiel 38 and 39 clearly speak of the conversion of a significant remnant of natural Israel at the return of Christ and as a result of the Battle of Armageddon. The second last contact with my JW friend at work was when he was about to retire. We hold the view that Ezekiel 38 describes a latter day invasion of Israel some time after their return from dispersion, and the invading force is headed up by Russia. My JW friend stated that he had been talking to another Christadelphian workmate. He evidently had almost derided my Christadelphian mate concerning the recognition of this king from the north as Russia. This was quite some years ago, shortly after the dissolution of the USSR. My question to him in response was to ask who did he consider this king from the north would be, and I also consider that the king of the north of Daniel 11:40 is the same. I received no answer. Maybe the GB had not disclosed this. Has the GB now issued a new revelation about the identity of this King from the North, or the King of the North?

Jesus is not coming back to the earth in human form….neither are his anointed ones.

Despite the simple clear teaching of Acts 1:11 and Acts 3:19-21, even in the NWT rendition.

Since the preaching of “the good news of the Kingdom” was to be carried out until “the end” of this current world system, (Matt 24:14) it was the method used by the first Christians to bring their message of salvation to the people and allow them to make their choice,

Yes, we preach the Gospel. At one stage the JWs had to fulfill their quota of preaching hours per week or per month. I am not sure if this is still required and how many hours are requested now.

When was the last time a Christadelphian called at my door to offer the good news?

We sometimes do leaflet drops advertising a Lecture, and we advertise in the local free monthly magazine. It is rare to get a visit from the JWs now. I received a few leaflets and responded to one of these and received a copy of the magazine style booklet and this was followed up with a few meetings, but was terminated by the JWs when I did not fully accept each of the lessons I was browsing through my JW box and came across the booklet. It is titled "What Does God Require of Us?" It consists if 16 lessons and 32 pages. It was contained in a folder where I also stored my preparation notes before each session, about 3 pages each lesson. We got as far as Lesson 3.

I have started a thread "The Yahweh Name" which is a brief summary of Christadelphian teaching since 1858 when John Thomas was invited to speak by a Trinitarian Jew to a Jewish audience in New York. The Trinitarian Jew was very disappointed that John Thomas did not support his own Trinitarian view.

I have also added a thread "The JW Book - What Can the Bible Teach Us?", where I discuss some of my differences with this standard JW teaching literature.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Aunty Jane]

@TrevorHL, thank you for your response, and it’s good that you received the message at least. You tried it on and it didn’t fit......you made your choice to reject it, like many do.....Jehovah is a reader of hearts, so not a single “sheep” will be missing when Christ passes judgment on all those living when that judgment comes. Of that we can be certain and thankful that we are not the judges. The message is meant to divide people.....so that when Christ manifests as judge, all will have made their decision to accept or to reject the message...as I said, this is not our call, we are to do as Christ instructed....we are just the messengers....
Free will was given for a reason....

Jesus instructed....
“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city.” (Matt 10:11-15)
It is a search and rescue mission. Can you do that sitting in a building, waiting for the sheep to wander in?
You know what it means “to shake the dust off”? It means that in spite of the rejection, we retain our peace.

No one will end their life at Armageddon who has not finally acknowledged the truth of the message preached in all the world by Christ’s true disciples......a hated and persecuted minority (John 15:18-21)...only they have been able to carry out that assignment for the entire period of “the last days” in spite of the hostility that is directed towards them.....this is a time clearly identified by Jesus in the “sign” he gave indicating his “presence” as King, (Matt 24:3-14) and ruling over his disciples, guiding and directing the work he assigned to them. (Matt 28:19-20) It was to be global in scope and required one single, united, international body of Christians who were compelled by holy spirit to preach this one message of salvation to the whole world......how can that possibly be done with those who follow their own beliefs within any certain identifiable body of professed Christians? Even the “lone rangers” somehow think they have it all right....

We are facing “the end” of satan’s world system, as people can now clearly see that all in satan’s world has been a delusional sham.....all those once trusted institutions are being exposed as the untrustworthy servants of the devil that they have always been. Jehovah said he would expose it all...and that is what we are seeing. We already know how it ends.....but who will be left standing? That is for Christ to answer....

If your decision is made.....then we have done our job....we move on to those who might yet accept the message.....it is offered, not forced. (John 6:44; 65)
I wish you well.....knowing that the door of opportunity is not closed....until God says it is.

AJ

 

[Jack]

Everything I have seen you quote is a misquote or doesn't account for context in 99% of the Bible. It's all starved of truth. You keep running like the devil from John 17:3. Why do you do that?

You don't even know that God can send Himself in the flesh? No surprise!

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

thank you for your response, and it’s good that you received the message at least. You tried it on and it didn’t fit......you made your choice to reject it,

I appreciate the response and the time and effort that you have given to present the JW perspective on a number of items. I have received and accepted the Apostolic Message or Gospel of the Kingdom and the Name and was baptised by water immersion when I was 21 Acts 8:5-6,12 and received into fellowship at my next Sunday meeting and shared the emblems of the bread and wine.

A few minor items you may be interested in. One of the ladies who gave me the JW Book that I mentioned in the other thread stated that her granddaughter attends our private school where the speaker at our Bible Class this evening is the Head Master. The lady stated that one feature of the School is that each student is given the opportunity to learn a musical instrument. The Head Master himself is an accomplished violinist.

I mentioned previously a JW workmate and our brief discussion about Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:40-45 the King of the North. That was the second last time I saw him. The last occasion was in the local shopping centre. He was there with his wife and as she is not a JW she appeared very impatient with us. As a result he blurted out a message to me and then hurried off. He stated something like what you have quoted earlier,

The “faithful and discreet slave“ exist because Jesus appointed “him” in this time of the end…

At the time I did not know who or what he was talking about. Firstly he used the unfamiliar NWT language "discreet" and secondly even taking the KJV translation, I had never heard the concept that this was speaking about a latter day organisation.
Matthew 24:45–46 (KJV): 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
My understanding of this, is that applies to all generations, and especially those who look after the members by teaching and guidance. The aspects of faithful and wise are illustrated in the first two parables of Matthew 25, and these seem to apply to all, e.g. ten virgins, rather than half a dozen men at the top of an Organisation..

Over the years I have been interested in Isaiah, and one of my favourite chapters is Isaiah 6. Do the JWs have any significant resources on Isaiah 6, a written article or a talk? I find this chapter is very interesting and has many difficult aspects and I would like to see if the GB or someone else has an explanation of some of this. How would a normal JW get on if he wanted to understand this chapter properly?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Runningman]

You don't even know that God can send Himself in the flesh? No surprise!

Why would God do that when He isn't served by humans hands? Guess who has humans hands.

Acts 17
24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

 

[Jack]

Why would God do that when He isn't served by humans hands? Guess who has humans hands.

Acts 17
24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

God can indeed send Himself as the Scripture proves! Have you read Isaiah? I doubt it.

 

[Runningman]

God can indeed send Himself as the Scripture proves! Have you read Isaiah? I doubt it.

Does God perpetuate sinful idolatry by becoming a man? No.

 

[Jack]

Does God perpetuate sinful idolatry by becoming a man? No.

Is that supposed to make sense?

Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[Runningman]

Is that supposed to make sense?

Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

His name will be called...

and yet he was never called those things because he isn't the Father. lol. You quote things you don't understand.

Begin here and you'll be on the right track:

John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.