The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

While it is true that Christ was the first to be resurrected, that idea isn't the subject of Revelation 20 as I have shown. Your method of exegesis is faulty because it obscures what the passage is intended to say.

You have to say that for Premil to fit. Premils cannot interpret Scripture with Scripture. To do so with cause Premil to quickly fall.

 

[WPM]

Let me help you. I will be happy to show you up again. You seem unable grasp these things but I'll try.

Daniel 12
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel shows that MANY that sleep in dust shall awake, WHEN THE PEOPLE OF DANIEL ARE DELIVERED. That happens at the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal.

Here is the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal. It occurs before the wrath of God.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The people of Daniel are delivered when Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation. They are singing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

None of your claims agree with the Word of God. There is no scripture that supports what you say.

You are incapable or unwilling to address counter arguments. That is the story of this thread. All you do is promote what you have been taught.

 

[rebuilder 454]

...or just cherry pick into some other doctrine besides amil and use your methodology to be equally in error.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You have to say that for Premil to fit. Premils cannot interpret Scripture with Scripture. To do so with cause Premil to quickly fall.

...as we speak Satan is bound for 1000 yrs?
Amil baloney

 

[MA2444]

...as we speak Satan is bound for 1000 yrs?
Amil baloney

If this is the Millenium, then the gays wouldnt be trying to take over.

Being gay used to be a Capital offense. Maybe it will again some day, lol.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you mean to say that I don't have a seminary degree or a doctorate in Biblical studies, then I am guilty as charged.

No, I don't mean that at all. I don't have those things, either. Understanding scripure has nothing to do with that, it has to do with spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:9-16). What I'm saying is because of your heretical belief of denying the deity of Christ, you have no authority here whatsoever and there is no reason for anyone to trust that you can interpret any scripture correctly.

We are wasting time together, I think. :)

Yes, and I'm not too interested in continuing to do that with you much longer. I'd like to return to refuting pretrib.

But WPM wanted to talk about amillennialism, not to refute the Pretribulation doctrine.

He is doing both, obviously.

I've heard about pink elephants.

lIf I freely admit my heresy, how am I a fraud? I think you need to rethink your conclusions.

You are a fraud by pretending to be a Christian on this Christian forum.

We worship Jesus because he, as a man, represents God. (Hebrews 1:1-4)

You are grasping at straws here. This shows that you do not know God. God would never allow anyone else but Himself to be worshiped.

Exodus 34:14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

In your view, Jesus is a god, but not God. Yet, God says "do not worship any other god". You are deceived.

You raised the issue of the deity of Christ in a thread concerned with discussing the pretribulation doctrine. This is meant to discredit whatever I might say about the subject at hand. This demonstrates your lack of confidence in your own beliefs about the subject. Not firm in your beliefs, you decide to attach me personally.

LOL. No, it demonstrates that you are a wolf in sheep's clothing and I want everyone here to know that.

Why do you feel that it is your responsibility to do that? Do you not trust others to draw their conclusions? Do you not trust the Holy Spirit to lead them?

Have you seen the comments of these immature children that we amils are debating in this thread? No, I do not trust them to draw their own conclusions. How does the Holy Spirit work? He can teach people directly if He wants, but I believe His preference is to use people to teach or else the spiritual gift of teaching would go to waste.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What did you say about it?

LOL. Now I know that there is no point in continuing this discussion. You obviously aren't even reading everything I'm saying. I said this about it: The absurdity of Pretrib logic

Your information is incorrect. The Greek word in verses 4 and 5 is ἔζησαν -- translated "came to life." This spelling of the word represents the third person, plural, aorist, active, indicative of "zao" -- to live. The salient point in verses 4 and 5 is the idea that whether someone has died in the service of Christ or they remain alive after having refused the mark, both groups will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

We should also take note of another Greek word in verse 5, "Αὕτη", which is a relative pronoun referring back to the previous statements. John describes what is known elsewhere in Paul's writings as the rapture. The dead in Christ are raised from the dead and those who are still alive go together to meet the Lord in the air. That, John says, is the "first resurrection."

Total doctrinally biased nonsense. Show me any other verse in scripture where the Greek word "zao" means to be resurrected or to come to life. Good luck.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

...as we speak Satan is bound for 1000 yrs?
Amil baloney

You are very ignorant about scripture, as you prove with every post you make.

Tell me, who does the "strong man" represent in the following passage, who is binding him and what does it mean for the strong man's house to be spoiled?

Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

 

[Douggg]

No, they are not. There is no scripture which teaches this. Jesus explicitly taught that the rapture will take place "immdiately after the tribulation of those days".

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:31 is not the rapture.

The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is after Jesus has returned to this earth. It is referring to the gathering of the Jews back to land of Israel.

Matthew 24:31 corresponds to Ezekiel 39:28. The gathering of the Jews back to the land of Israel, even if scattered to the farthest parts of heaven (a metaphor for the most distant nations), is a promise that God made to them back in Deuteronomy 30:4-6.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:


5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

 

[WPM]

...or just cherry pick into some other doctrine besides amil and use your methodology to be equally in error.

You haven't laid one paw on Amillennialism. You cannot even justify the basics of your own doctrine.

 

[Douggg]

You are very ignorant about scripture, as you prove with every post you make.

Tell me, who does the "strong man" represent in the following passage, who is binding him and what does it mean for the strong man's house to be spoiled?

Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Jesus was saying that his power was greater than Satan's.

But that does not imply that Satan has been bound in the general sense. Satan goes about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, 1Peter5:8.

For example, Islam. Islam is a religion founded on Satan's influence, which was spread by the sword.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, he doesn't rule over all nations. I would think that the events we have seen over the past year would cause you to rethink that.

You don't accept what Jesus Himself said. That's on you. That is foolish.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

While it is true that all authority has been given to Jesus, it is not true that he has begun to use that power to rule over the nations yet. Jesus doesn't begin to rule until he returns.

Nonsense. Why do you think He has to be a dictator in order to be ruling? That's complete nonsense. To say He is not ruling would be like saying He is not yet acting as the head of the church. Is that what you believe?

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

If Jesus being placed in a position "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" means He has not begun using that power, then you would have to also conclude that Him being made "the head over all things to the church" does not mean He has not yet begun using that power, either. Are you willing to draw such a conclusion?

Daniel 7 describes the coming of the son of man, his being given an everlasting dominion, and "the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One."

Does that not match what Paul said here:

Ephesians 1:19 Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Paul indicated that it happend upon Christ's resurrection and ascension to the right hand of the Father. Do you not think that Paul knew what he was talking about?

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Notice where Jesus is going in this passage. Does it says He's going from heaven to earth? No! It shows Him going "to the Ancient of days" which is God the Father. Where would that occur? On earth? No, in heaven. So, why do you miss details like this? Is it because of doctrinal bias perhaps? I think so. Daniel 7:13-14 is clealy referring to the same thing as Ephesians 1:19-23 which is describing His ascension and Him being given complete authority over all things at that time.

Agreed.

You agree that Daniel 7:13-14 and Ephesians 1:19-23 are talking about the same event? Then why do you try to say that Daniel 7:13-14 is talking about His second coming? Obviously, Ephesians 1:19-23 is talking about His ascension and not His second coming. You are so confused.

Nonetheless, the idea originated in a Psalm of David where he wrote, "The Lord said to my Lord, 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for Your feet.'" At the ascension of Jesus, according to Paul, Jesus rose to sit at the father's right hand. This is consistent with Jesus' assertion that God has given him all authority. Not only this, however, the Father promised Jesus that he would make his enemies a footstool for his feet.

This has yet to take place. We do not currently see his enemies in subjection to him.

Neither Daniel 7:13-14 nor Ephesians 1:19-23 make any reference to His second coming. All things currently are under His feet and eventually all of His enemies will be under His feet, including enemies that haven't even become His enemies yet. But, each moment in time all things are under His feet and that will continue until the end which comes at His second coming (1 Cor 15:22-24). At that point the last enemy to be defeated and put under His feet will be death.

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

When will death be defeated? All we need to do is keep reading in 1 Cor 15 to find out.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

There it is. The last enemy, death, will be defeated at the last trumpet when Jesus returns and not 1,000+ years later as premils believe.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You have to say that for Premil to fit. Premils cannot interpret Scripture with Scripture. To do so with cause Premil to quickly fall.

I said it because that is what the text says. There is no such thing as interpreting scripture with scripture. That concept is absurd.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You haven't laid one paw on Amillennialism. You cannot even justify the basics of your own doctrine.

He is obviously all talk. He acts confident in his view and, yet, he is too afraid to even attempt exegeting any scripture to back it up. Does he think people can't see through his act?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I said it because that is what the text says. There is no such thing as interpreting scripture with scripture. That concept is absurd.

Oh, so, for any given verse or passage, we can't use other scripture to help us interpret it? We should interpret every verse in isolation from other scripture? That's your approach? No wonder you are so deceived.

 

[WPM]

He is obviously all talk. He acts confident in his view and, yet, he is too afraid to even attempt exegeting any scripture to back it up. Does he think people can't see through his act?

That is all they have now. They cannot bring any prooftext to the table. It impossible to engage with them. All their so-called proof texts they present have been addressed and rebutted. What have they now but sweeping extra biblical statements, avoidance and ad hominem?

 

[The Light]

That largely demolishes your doctrine.

LOL. You claim there is a rapture.........at the end. So that would demolish what you claim also. There is nothing you have that can change the truth of scripture.

 

[Douggg]

Paul described "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" when the day of the Lord comes. When exactly do you believe that the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" will occur in relation to the second coming of Christ?

The sudden destruction will be the sudden destruction of the peace and safety feeling that the world will have at the time.

And is suddenly plunged into the great tribulation, a time of unmatched trouble. Which the great tribulation will not end until Jesus's Second Coming when Satan is cast into the bottomless pit prison in Revelation 20:1-3 for a thousand years.

Describe that "great tribulation" for me and explain how Matthew 24:34-39 and 1 Thess 5:2-3 are not about Jesus's Second Coming.

The great tribulation will be a time of unmatched trouble, that begins when the abomination of desolation is setup, and lasts for 1335 days.

During the 1335 days, God wrath will be poured out on the world, and also Satan will be inflicting trouble with his wrath because he will know that his time is short (a time, times, half time - Revelation 12:12-14).

Jesus's Second Coming will be at the end of the 1335 days, to end the great tribulation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus was saying that his power was greater than Satan's.

Yes, and....? What does it mean for Jesus to spoil the strong man Satan's house?

But that does not imply that Satan has been bound in the general sense. Satan goes about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, 1Peter5:8.

For example, Islam. Islam is a religion founded on Satan's influence, which was spread by the sword.

Premils like to quote 1 Peter 5:8, but they apparently ignore the verses which follow it.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

If we resist Satan, then what must he do? Flee from us (James 4:7), right? Is this the kind of authority over Satan that anyone had in OT times? No. Why not? Because they didn't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. Satan can't touch us when we resist him because he is no match for the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. He is bound from stopping us from preaching the gospel throughout the world in the power of the Holy Spirit like he was able to do in OT times when the Gentiles were "without Christ...without hope, and without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-13).

By His death, Jesus set free those who the devil, Satan, was formerly able to keep as slaves to the fear of death because of having the power of death. But, Jesus took that away from him.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

 

[Douggg]

Premils like to quote 1 Peter 5:8, but they apparently ignore the verses which follows it.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

If we resist Satan, then what must he do? Flee from us (James 4:7), right? Is this the kind of authority over Satan that anyone had in OT times? No. Why not? Because they didn't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. Satan can't touch us when we resist him because he is no match for the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. He is bound from stopping us from preaching the gospel throughout the world in the power of the Holy Spirit like he was able to do in OT times when the Gentiles were "without Christ...without hope, and without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-13).

By His death, Jesus set free those who the devil, Satan, was formerly able to keep as slaves to the fear of death because of having the power of death. But, Jesus took that away from him.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Satan is still active in the world causing trouble for God's creation. And has not been bound in the bottomless pit like what will happen at Jesus's Second Coming. Satan when he becomes bound in the bottomless pit will not have access to the world during that one thousand years.