The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

What you mean is you are so confused you can't even show your own rapture in Revelation.

You are so confused that you can't show where the Church is mentioned in the 144,000 which God says are of the 12 tribes.

You are not only confused but you continue to use the playbook of those that think they have replaced Israel.

DENY THAT YOUR QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN ANSWERED............

The only ducking is you not responding to the challenges presented. Where is your rapture verses in Revelation. You have none.

You have to duck the question because you make up the post wrath rapture.


Nah. How many scriptures do I have to post? THERE ARE MORE BUT YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THESE.

Two folds into one

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Shows Israel was chosen as 1st harvest but they served other Baalpeor. The Gentiles become the 1st harvest as the fig tree has two harvests.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Show Christ has come because the elders have their crowns.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

We can escape all these things that come to pass and stand before the Son of man

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

One coming like the days of Noah and one coming like the days of Lot. The irony is that you think there is only one coming and it is after wrath. Where the Word shows we are not appointed to wrath.

I could keep posting scriptures but you can't even understand these. There are five wise virgins and five foolish virgins. The wise are watching and ready.



The 24 elders have crowns. JESUS HAS COME.

Again, total baloney. The absence of the Church not being mentioned is not proof. However, it should make you think.......where is the Church. You can find them in heaven in Rev 5

There is not a post you can find of mine that says that the 24 elders are the complete Church. The 24 elders with crowns are proof that Jesus has returned.

Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Here is the Church in heaven.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

LOL, Spiritualize. Not a chance. The 24 are exactly what the Word says they are..............24 elders with crowns. This shows Jesus has returned. They are not the complete Church............they are 24 elders.

And yet you want to spiritualize the 144,000 and claim they are the Church. Your teachers have not figured out that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth before the great tribulation.

The 144,000 are redeemed from the earth and are in heaven before the throne.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Pitiful arguments you are presenting.

Once again, more avoidance! You prove my point.

Where do the dead in Christ go when they die?

Do you believe the redeemed today are kings and priests? Do you believe they carry spiritual authority?

 

[Douggg]

But, in your view the destruction doesn't even come until years after the day of the Lord will arrive.

No, that is not what I wrote.

The day of the Lord begins by the Antichrist's transgression of desolation act. And shorty thereafter, the great tribulation begins.

The ToD act, then the assassination, then the coming back to life, then the statue image, and placed on the temple mount as the AoD - to start the great tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

So, this means you believe "that day" Luke refers to in Luke 21:34-36, which is the day when Jesus returns, sends down His wrath on the entire earth and heaven and earth pass away will last for 1,335 days?

No, Luke 21:34-36 escape is the anytime rapture view. After the rapture, there will be 1335 days between when the AoD is setup until Jesus's return.

 

[WPM]

No, that is not what I wrote.

The day of the Lord begins by the Antichrist's transgression of desolation act. And shorty thereafter, the great tribulation begins.

The ToD act, then the assassination, then the coming back to life, then the statue image, and placed on the temple mount as the AoD - to start the great tribulation.





View attachment 47872

Impossible! Antichrist is actually destroyed at the coming of the Lord. This is the time when we are gathered together unto the Lord at the catching away. Let the Bible speak for itself! Stop imposing your error upon it.

II Thessalonians 2:1-8 says, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Christ (most modern translations say “the day of the Lord”) is at hand is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [Gr. apostasía or apostasy] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth (or restraineth) that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness [Gr. epiphaneia] of his coming [Gr. parousia].”

 

[The Light]

What? 24 elders are not billions of Christians. Where are you getting that from? It seems like you stretching that to support your teaching. There is no mention of "the Church."

Ridiculous. The 24 elders are 24 elders. No one is saying they are the Church. They HAVE CROWNS. Jesus has come.

Let me remind you: it is your school of thought that argues that the absence of any mention of "the Church" between Revelation 4 - 19 proves they is no Church on earth. That is what Pretribs have been wrongly taught. You are therefore hung by your own noose. I am using nonsensical Pretrib thinking to hang nonsensical Pretrib thinking.

• You cannot explain to us how 24 Elders represent the whole Church. After all, there are millions of believers.
• You cannot show us anywhere in Scripture where the Church is represented with this symbol of 24 Elders.
• Where does it show 24 Elders being caught up into heaven via a Pretrib rapture?

The 24 elders are 24 elders. No one is saying they are the Church. They HAVE CROWNS. Jesus has come.

The symbolism here, like much in Revelation, finds its origin in Old Testament Scripture.

The 24 elders bear a striking similarity to the number, and attire, of the priests that Israel had under the old covenant. They are clothed in white raiment and had on their heads, crowns of gold.

Between 1 Chronicles 24:1-19 there are 24 priests listed, being described as “the divisions of the sons of Aaron.” This is an Israeli depiction.



24 Elders = the Church but 144,000 "redeemed from among men" who belong to the Lamb of God (Jesus Christ) cannot. Hmmmm! Really?

The 24 elders are 24 elders. No one is saying they are the Church. They HAVE CROWNS. Jesus has come.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

We need to first establish the location that we are looking at tonight.

Where is this?

What is mount Sion today?

The only Mount Sion were dead believers go and worship the Lamb is heavenly Mount Zion. This is not an earthly scene, but heavenly!



Talk about avoidance. You totally ignored my thesis. That is because Scripture demolishes your doctrine. Checkmate. You have no response. You have no rebuttal. Game over!

Were the 144,000 ever on earth? They are redeemed FROM THE EARTH.

They are in heaven BEFORE THE THRONE.

They are FIRST FRUITS.

They have been raptured.

Revelation 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

[Douggg]

Antichrist is actually destroyed at the coming of the Lord. This is the time when we are gathered together unto the Lord at the catching away.

Let the Bible speak for itself! Stop imposing your error upon it. (your words right back at you. please stop with the inflaming rhetoric.)

When do the 1335 days of Daniel 12:12 take place relative to Jesus's return ?

 

[WPM]

Ridiculous. The 24 elders are 24 elders. No one is saying they are the Church. They HAVE CROWNS. Jesus has come.


The 24 elders are 24 elders. No one is saying they are the Church. They HAVE CROWNS. Jesus has come.


The 24 elders are 24 elders. No one is saying they are the Church. They HAVE CROWNS. Jesus has come.


Were the 144,000 ever on earth? They are redeemed FROM THE EARTH.

They are in heaven BEFORE THE THRONE.

They are FIRST FRUITS.

They have been raptured.

Revelation 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Where does it say the 144,000 are raptured? This is more adding unto Scripture. This sums up every tenet of Pretrib.

You still haven't showed us your Pretrib Rapture in Revelation. That is probably because it is not there.

 

[WPM]

Let the Bible speak for itself! Stop imposing your error upon it. (your words right back at you. please stop with the inflaming rhetoric.)

When do the 1335 days of Daniel 12:12 take place relative to Jesus's return ?

More avoidance. Please address what I presented and quoted.

 

[The Light]

Once again, more avoidance! You prove my point.

Where do the dead in Christ go when they die?

Do you believe the redeemed today are kings and priests? Do you believe they carry spiritual authority?

Yes, yes, yes

Do you believe that the dead in Christ get crowns when they die? Or does Jesus have to come first before the dead get crowns?

 

[WPM]

Yes, yes, yes

Do you believe that the dead in Christ get crowns when they die?

More avoidance! You're not doing your cause any help. Revelation is full of symbolism. I'm sorry that you do not get that. Crowns represent authority. We are kings and priests right now. Kings possess crowns.

 

[The Light]

More avoidance! You're not doing your cause any help. Revelation is full of symbolism. I'm sorry that you do not get that. Crowns represent authority. We are kings and priests right now. Kings possess crowns.

Mr Avoidance want to claim everyone avoids him.

If you think that you get your crown when you die you are AS USUAL mistaken.

You got nothing. You can't even show your imaginary rapture in Revelation.

 

[covenantee]

...and yet you showed an ethnic group letting in outsiders.
Ahem..a race chosen by God.
You have no idea what you are talking about.

That word you ascribe "racist" , is just you lowering the bar, then you ascribe God as over a race that graciously allows outsiders into THAT RACE OF GODS PEOPLE.

You Muslim or something?????

They are of Ishmael.
Ahem...a race of people that hates Jews, (the chosen RACE OF PEOPLE chosen by God.)

Numbers 25
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.

Twenty four thousand of your "chosen RACE OF PEOPLE chosen by God."

What happened to them?

Why?

 

[WPM]

Mr Avoidance want to claim everyone avoids him.

If you think that you get your crown when you die you are AS USUAL mistaken.

You got nothing. You can't even show your imaginary rapture in Revelation.

You do not seem to get the spiritual import of such depictions in this apocalyptic book. You also do not seem to get the overall symbolic thrust of the book of Revelation. Christians (both on earth and in heaven) carry real and powerful spiritual authority since Christ defeated sin, death, Hades, Satan and eternal punishment 2000 years ago. That is what the crowns represent.

 

[WPM]

The absence of the Church not being mentioned is not proof. However, it should make you think.......where is the Church. You can find them in heaven in Rev 5

There is not a post you can find of mine that says that the 24 elders are the complete Church. The 24 elders with crowns are proof that Jesus has returned.

Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Here is the Church in heaven.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Pitiful arguments you are presenting.

Really? So, if the 24 Elders are not the Church, where is your rapture of the Church in the book of Revelation before Revelation 4 and 5? Where is the Church mentioned in Revelation 5? Where in 1 Thess 4 or any other catching away passage does it say that (1) we are caught up to the air whereupon we go to heaven, and (2) what follows is a 7 tribulation period?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Numbers 25
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.

Twenty four thousand of your "chosen RACE OF PEOPLE chosen by God."

What happened to them?

Why?

1) is there any such a thing as race on the planet?
2) is God the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
3) is God the God of Islam?
4) God is, hands down, the God of a race.

 

[WPM]

1) is there any such a thing as race on the planet?
2) is God the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
3) is God the God of Islam?
4) God is, hands down, the God of a race.

We're not saved by race, we are saved by grace alone.

 

[covenantee]

1) is there any such a thing as race on the planet?
2) is God the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
3) is God the God of Islam?
4) God is, hands down, the God of a race.

As expected, you were unable to answer the simplest of questions for any Christian..

Need a hint?

 

[The Light]

Really? So, if the 24 Elders are not the Church, where is your rapture of the Church in the book of Revelation before Revelation 4 and 5?

Jesus has come as evidenced by the 24 elders having crowns. The kings and priests in Rev 5 is the Church.

Where is the Church mentioned in Revelation 5?

It's pretty simple. The kings and priest out of every kindred and tongue and people an nation are the Church. John tells us so in Rev 1

Obviously, you won't be able grasp it, but any reasonable person looking for the truth can make this simple connection. You are more interested in protecting a fallen doctrine birthed by unbelieving men to be able to grasp the truth.

Rev 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev 1
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Where in 1 Thess 4 or any other catching away passage does it say that (1) we are caught up to the air whereupon we go to heaven, and

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

(2) what follows is a 7 tribulation period?

As usual, I don't believe in a 7 year tribulation. I do believe in a 70th week of Daniel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, that is not what I wrote.

The day of the Lord begins by the Antichrist's transgression of desolation act. And shorty thereafter, the great tribulation begins.

How long after? Are we talking a few days, several weeks, a year? Give me some idea. Can you acknowledge that you referring to a sudden and unexpected appearing of a supposed Antichrist in a temple is not a description of unexpected and "sudden destruction"?

The ToD act, then the assassination, then the coming back to life, then the statue image, and placed on the temple mount as the AoD - to start the great tribulation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let the Bible speak for itself! Stop imposing your error upon it. (your words right back at you. please stop with the inflaming rhetoric.)

Stop your dishonest treatment of scripture and stop trying to distract attention away from what is being discussed.