Spiritual Warfare

[marks]

What do you make of Jesus' statement from Matthew 5:48?
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Put it in context and the meaning becomes clear.

Matthew 5:43-48 KJV
43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

"Perfect" here does not refer specifically to moral excellence, rather, complete, mature, consumate, like that.

The theme is Love. Don't just love those who love you, love those who don't, as does God. He cares for the needs of his enemies. So you also be - mature, complete - perfect as your Father in heaven. Don't parse your love, give it to all, like our Father does.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

I understand the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus to be operative because we've been baptized into Christ, and so now His Spirit gives us life that we don't have otherwise.

I know both Ezekiel and Jeremiah prophesied of what seems like regeneration as something future, I will take out your heart of stone, and give you a heart of flesh, like that.

I'm only aware of one place in the Old Testament where it says God gave someone a new heart, and that was King Saul, of all people! Not Daniel, or Job, or Abraham.

I'm not questioning their righteousness, only, when rebirth started, which I believe waited until Jesus rose from the grave.

Much love!

I understand your position marks, but even if one man only was given a new heart, ie King Saul, does not that alone say it was available before Christ?

The testing point is whether any man was in fact perfect, that is pure and not mature in OT times. My bible says yes.

Time is nothing to God and what was ratified on the cross was already there since creation.

 

[Hepzibah]

48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

"Perfect" here does not refer specifically to moral excellence, rather, complete, mature, consumate, like that.

It does not say be mature as your heavenly Father is mature.

 

[Hepzibah]

I am so pleased that the discussion has got back to the basics on holiness and not muddied by previous distractions and terms like higher and lower walk. It makes me wonder what goes on with the time wasting to-ing and fro-wing we see on here.

Lets keep on the subject.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Paul compared himself to a nursing mother.

I've always remembered one member being needled mercilessly for days on one of these threads, and then finally he wrote something out of his frustration. And the reply was, "Ah, there you are! The real you!" Needle, and taunt, and accuse, until finally . . . pounce! This has not changed.

Much love!

It makes me consider not provoking children to wrath but to love. I can relate…it’s horrible to admit but experiencing before the poking in real life, the constant badgering until something ugly rises up in me and I start letting the cuss words fly. Coming to a place where…if you want the flesh then I’ll give it to you. In this I can not understand how Jesus Christ endure the shame and mocking without returning the same. I do not understand how he took it with such Grace and mercy and forgiveness. It is supernatural to me, his doing what no other man could do.

Reminds me poking at a sleeping bear. Why not let it sleep?

 

[Azim]

I am so pleased that the discussion has got back to the basics on holiness and not muddied by previous distractions and terms like higher and lower walk. It makes me wonder what goes on with the time wasting to-ing and fro-wing we see on here.

Lets keep on the subject.

Do you believe when one is truly walking in the spirit, they are not able to sin?

 

[Hepzibah]

Do you believe when one is truly walking in the spirit, they are not able to sin?

Man is never in the position that he is unable to sin, so he can fall from entire sanctification. Rather I would say that he is able to not sin.

 

[marks]

I understand your position marks, but even if one man only was given a new heart, ie King Saul, does not that alone say it was available before Christ?

The testing point is whether any man was in fact perfect, that is pure and not mature in OT times. My bible says yes.

Time is nothing to God and what was ratified on the cross was already there since creation.

Yet King Saul did not demonstrate the fruits of rebirth, and to me this reference is to something other than regeneration.

I'm still studying the word "upright" so my comments may be premature, but what I'm finding so far is that this includes not only obedient, pure, also free from enslavement, and not scheming, I feel there is more that I will find. Job was perfect and upright. I don't question his walk with God.

"Rebirth in the OT" is another of those things that continues to be debated by some. To me it's a settled matter.

Hebrews 11:39-40 KJV
39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I am so pleased that the discussion has got back to the basics on holiness and not muddied by previous distractions and terms like higher and lower walk. It makes me wonder what goes on with the time wasting to-ing and fro-wing we see on here.

Lets keep on the subject.

This is one of my concerns also, in the time and energy lost being entangled in that kind of discussion.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

Yet King Saul did not demonstrate the fruits of rebirth, and to me this reference is to something other than regeneration.

I'm still studying the word "upright" so my comments may be premature, but what I'm finding so far is that this includes not only obedient, pure, also free from enslavement, and not scheming, I feel there is more that I will find. Job was perfect and upright. I don't question his walk with God.

"Rebirth in the OT" is another of those things that continues to be debated by some. To me it's a settled matter.

Hebrews 11:39-40 KJV
39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Much love!

Will have to read up on King Saul and Hebrews to answer you. Might have to get back in the morning.

 

[marks]

It does not say be mature as your heavenly Father is mature.

It's in the translation, and what we understand perfect to mean. Consumate may be the best understanding of the word. Complete. Same word Jesus used when He said, It is finished.

With that being said . . . the way to be righteous is to live holy. Living holy is to be living according to God's purpose for me. Saying that I'm holy is saying I only serve His purpose, not my own.

Holiness is in two places, one is my spirit, holy and righteous according to the holy and righteous Jesus into Whom I've been immersed. The other is in my walk, my conversation (conduct), if I am serving His purpose and not my own. If I'm serving Him I'm not serving sin. The preordained works are the walk in the Spirit. All one thing. An exclusive servant.

So then being mature, or complete, leads to purity, and moral excellence.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Will have to read up on King Saul and Hebrews to answer you. Might have to get back in the morning.

No worries! This is a meaningful discussion to have, and I welcome your thoughts! I'm still learning about these things.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What do you make of Jesus' statement from Matthew 5:48?
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

what do I think.

He told them the standard they would have to meet if they wanted to get to heaven without him.

The whole passage was proving to them they could not keep the law. Even though like many self rightous people. They think they have and they are.

The fact is, if you want to get to heave by your own righteousness. Be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.

Remember the same jesus said to someone, why do you call me good. NO ONE IS GOOD But God..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I understand your position marks, but even if one man only was given a new heart, ie King Saul, does not that alone say it was available before Christ?

The testing point is whether any man was in fact perfect, that is pure and not mature in OT times. My bible says yes.

Time is nothing to God and what was ratified on the cross was already there since creation.

All have sinned and fall short.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you believe when one is truly walking in the spirit, they are not able to sin?

If they were truly walking, they would be unable to sin..

But who walks 24/7 and does not think of self for even 5 minutes in a day?

 

[Hepzibah]

Yet King Saul did not demonstrate the fruits of rebirth, and to me this reference is to something other than regeneration.

I'm still studying the word "upright" so my comments may be premature, but what I'm finding so far is that this includes not only obedient, pure, also free from enslavement, and not scheming, I feel there is more that I will find. Job was perfect and upright. I don't question his walk with God.

"Rebirth in the OT" is another of those things that continues to be debated by some. To me it's a settled matter.

Hebrews 11:39-40 KJV
39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Much love!

“The Spirit of the Lord will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person. . . . God is with you” 1 Sam 10: 6–7.

The Holy Spirit came upon Saul which can only mean he was baptized in the Spirit and further evidenced when scripture says:

But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. 1 Sam 16:14

But he was not the only one recorded in scripture:

Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him, and He took some of the Spirit that was on Moses and placed that Spirit on the seventy elders. As the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied--but they never did so again. Numbers 11:25

It is clear that Saul disobeyed God and the Spirit left him.

"this includes not only obedient, pure, also free from enslavement, and not scheming"

Yes indeed, one who is able to not sin has been delivered from the claim Satan has on him and he is returned to the state in which man was created. The power of the Holy Spirit alone can do this so that man can walk as He walked.

I will have to give the verse you quote from Hebrew 11 as I have not encountered that in connection with holiness doctrine, and look at a commentary or two but we read on to Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.

So we are told they are examples to us to lay aside the sin which so easily besets us which is repentance. Will get back on this.

 

[Hepzibah]

All have sinned and fall short.

Indeed all men who are born become sinners but the scriptures tell us to cease sinning. Of course we cannot do that in our own power but the first step is that God reveals to us the truth of the holiness doctrine and He will only do that if we are seeking, hungering and thirsting and knocking.

 

[Hepzibah]

If they were truly walking, they would be unable to sin..

But who walks 24/7 and does not think of self for even 5 minutes in a day?

What seems impossible for man is possible for God. Many many witness to this.

 

[Hepzibah]

@marks

Here is Adam Clarke in his commentary:

Verse 39. Having obtained a good report (having been witnessed to; see Hebrews 11:2) through faith] It was faith in God which supported all those eminent men who, in different parts of the world, and in different ages, were persecuted for righteousness sake.

Received not the promise] They all heard of the promises made to Abraham of a heavenly rest, and of the promise of the Messiah, for this was a constant tradition; but they died without having seen this Anointed of the Lord. Christ was not in any of their times manifested in the flesh; and of him who was the expectation of all nations, they heard only by the hearing of the ear. This must be the promise, without receiving of which the apostle says they died.
Hebrews 11:38Hebrews 11:40

 

[Hepzibah]

Here is Chrysostom

"Do you also consider what a thing it is, and how great, that Abraham should be sitting, and the Apostle Paul, waiting till you have been perfected, that then they may be able to receive their reward. For the Saviour has told them before that unless we also are present, He will not give it them. As an affectionate father might say to sons who were well approved, and had accomplished their work, that he would not give them to eat, unless their brethren came. And are you vexed, that you have not yet received the reward? What then shall Abel do, who was victor before all, and is sitting uncrowned? And what Noah? And what, they who lived in those [early] times: seeing that they wait for you and those after you?

Do you see that we have the advantage of them? For God (he says) has provided some better thing for us. In order that they might not seem to have the advantage of us from being crowned before us, He appointed one time of crowning for all; and he that gained the victory so many years before, receives his crown with you. Do you see His tender carefulness?

And he did not say, that they without us might not be crowned, but that they without us might not be made perfect; so that at that time they appear perfect also. They were before us as regards the conflicts, but are not before us as regards the crowns. He wronged not them, but He honored us. For they also wait for the brethren. For if we are all one body, the pleasure becomes greater to this body, when it is crowned altogether, and not part by part. For the righteous are also worthy of admiration in this, that they rejoice in the welfare of their brethren, as in their own. So that for themselves also, this is according to their wish, to be crowned along with their own members. To be glorified all together, is a great delight."

So he is saying that we will all receive the crown together.