CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity

[Taken]

Huh? None of this makes sense. Can you condense all that into a few sentences or questions so I can understand it?

Mary

Not likely. You want a Carnal understanding to a Spiritual question.

 

[Taken]

What a bizarre question.

Nope, not of that opinion at all. I have never suggested that, wrote that, implied that or thought that.

It was a question … not a statement…!

 

[Marymog]

@Marymog

DESTINY…
The inevitable or necessary fate to which a particular person or thing is destined; one's lot.
A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control.

You choose…WITH or WITHOUT God…
Once you have Chosen…YOU have NO SAY in your Destiny….your soul will GO to Heaven or Hell….God has forewarned you.

There is no “praying” a soul OUT OF the depths of Hell…

A man and woman choose to have a child and raise them in a Christian home to be a Christian. That child then chooses to become an atheist and as an adult and they choose to renounce God. According to your theory God predestined that person hell. Your theory is bizarre to say the least.

 

[Taken]

Just because God knows our destiny does not mean he predetermined our destiny.

Heaven or Hell…Ya don’t think God knowing your destiny DID NOT pre-plan, pre-establish, pre-create, pre-determine WHERE those WITH Him, and those WITHOUT Him would Go?

He just knows our choices before we make our choices. That is where you are getting confused and don't understand.

I am not confused nor am the one asking you to EXPLAIN spiritual things, with Carnal minded understanding.

 

[Marymog]

It was a question … not a statement…!

Yup, it was a question with a statement when YOU made the statement "you must be of the opinion".

Stop playing games with me.......

 

[Marymog]

Heaven or Hell…Ya don’t think God knowing your destiny DID NOT pre-plan, pre-establish, pre-create, pre-determine WHERE those WITH Him, and those WITHOUT Him would Go?

Knowing the outcome is not the same a predetermining the outcome....That makes no sense and is not based on Scripture or logic.

 

[Taken]

A man and woman choose to have a child and raise them in a Christian home to be a Christian. That child then chooses to become an atheist and as an adult and they choose to renounce God. According to your theory God predestined that person hell. Your theory is bizarre to say the least.

According to Gods Word…regardless how the parents raised the child, that child, is accountable for his OWN Choices.
Ya, think that a SURPRISE to God what that child chose?

 

[Marymog]

Not likely. You want a Carnal understanding to a Spiritual question.

If it's Spiritual give you Scriptural evidence to back it up.....

Patient Mary

 

[Marymog]

According to Gods Word…regardless how the parents raised the child, that child, is accountable for his OWN Choices.
Ya, think that a SURPRISE to God what that child chose?

You say according to Gods Word but don't give Gods word to back it up....

Patient Mary

 

[Marymog]

I am not confused nor am the one asking you to EXPLAIN spiritual things, with Carnal minded understanding.

Yes, you are confused because you are saying two different things.

I am not making a spiritual argument soooo why would you ask me to explain spiritual things?....You make no sense taken.

 

[Logikos]

Who CARES? I don’t.

You really should. I've tried to explain why and I've tried to move away from this topic but you simple won't let it go!

I have on numerous occasions, given what DOCTRINE I subscribe to and WHAT specifically such PERSONS are Scripturally identified as…

My standing IS with and in;
Christ the Lord Jesus’ Doctrine…
Converted Christian.

EVERY person that calls himself a Christian says this, Taken! That's just the entire point! Every Arminian, every Calvinist, every Catholic, every Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist and even every cult leader like David Koresh, the one thing that they all have in common is that the make the claim that they believe the gospel according to Jesus.

The point there being that making such a claim is meaningless in regards to distinguishing you from those who's doctrine you hate and vehemently disagree with! You stating that you believe the doctrine of Christ, while accurate, is no more useful than it would be if a politician refused any other label than that of "American". Have you ever wondered why, no matter the political system or form of government, that people tend to fall into one or the other of only two groups? There's a really excellent reason for it and it one of the chief reasons why labels matter.

What this group and that group, and this commentator and that commentator, and this person wrote and that person wrote, and what this Cleric says and that Cleric says, and this person thinks or says and that person thinks or says….IRRELEVANT.

I understand that someone has managed to convince you of this but it just isn't so, Taken. There is nothing new under the Sun and I can guarantee that you've not formulated your own unique systematic theology and even if you had, it would fall into one or the other of only a very few categories. This is because Christian doctrine is based on one or the other of a very few premises that are even at all compatible to biblical Christianity.
In fact, aside from the major divisions like Catholic vs Protestant, most doctrinal systems are very similar to several others with only slight tweaks here and there. This is because doctrines do not happen in a vacuum. The reason you believe one thing has a lot to do with the fact that you believe this other, more fundamental thing. It's just like how politicians divide themselves on the left or the right and how you can almost always know what someone is going to believe about gun rights by knowing what they believe about abortion or the death penalty or any one of a dozen other issues. It's because those issues are related to each other. They are not decided upon one at a time. The major premises that cause you to believe in the right to defend your own life is the same premise that leads to the conclusion that unborn babies are helpless human beings that ought not be murdered, which again is the same premise that leads you to understand that the murderer has forfeit his own right to live.

Likewise, if one believes that the future is settled, then it is because they believe that God is immutable and it is only a person's instinct for and allegiance to the principle of justice that moves that person away from exhaustive predestination and toward a belief in free will. And, when that move is made, it has certain consequences that tend toward acceptance of various other doctrines which is why nearly all those who believe in free will also believe in things like the idea that one can lose your salvation, etc. This is how these groups come into existence without anyone necessarily trying to create them. They happen organically because birds of a feather really do flock together. People are naturally drawn to those of like mind.

My entire point with all this is that you ARE NOT unique! There is a group of people who, by and large, share your doctrine and that group has a name. Based on what you've said in this thread, that group is called "Arminian", which is information that is useful to us both. It is not the irrelevancy that you want to insist that it is. It is also not some sort of fire brand that permanently and inexorably forces you to except every single detail of what some Arminian theologian states. Indeed, there have been occasions where, at the beginning of a discussion someone thought that I was an Arminian, and for good reason! I quickly corrected them and explain why but that's beside the point. The point is that it doesn't matter if the label is a perfect fit, it isn't about that. It's simply gives people a way of relating to you that is less cumbersome than having to speak of every doctrine individually. It allows those of us who happen to know something about what we're talking about to have some intuition about where to most profitably take a discussion and what issues would be a waste of time.

 

[Marymog]

@Marymog

DESTINY…
The inevitable or necessary fate to which a particular person or thing is destined; one's lot.
A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control.

You choose…WITH or WITHOUT God…
Once you have Chosen…YOU have NO SAY in your Destiny….your soul will GO to Heaven or Hell….God has forewarned you.

There is no “praying” a soul OUT OF the depths of Hell…

Once again, your confusion lies with you equating ones destiny to Gods knowledge of that destiny. They don't equate....

 

[Marymog]

The Lord can and will intervene in circumstances.....but as far as I understand it He does not try to control people (unlike so many churches and their leaders). God allows both people and devil to exercise their will for the most part at least....though perhaps restraining the devil at times or seasons.

Yup, God intervenes in our lives sometimes. Yup, some church leaders "try to control people".

None of that has to do with a person being predestined to go to hell.

 

[Taken]

Yup, it was a question with a statement when YOU made the statement "you must be of the opinion".

Stop playing games with me.......

Knowing the outcome is not the same a predetermining the outcome....That make no sense and is not based on Scripture or logic.

Heaven is Gods Kingdom.
Hell is NOT Gods Kingdom.
Yes according to Scripture the WHOLE of a man (body, soul, spirit) will eternally be one place or the other.
And God KNOWS, has PRE-DETERMINED, who shall be where.

You seem disappointed God Knows before a man…AND prepares a place for every man With and Without Him.

Do you PRE-determine what you will buy at a grocery store?
Do you PRE-determine what items you will need to prepare meals?
Do you notify your family of every meal you have Pre-determined to prepare?

Pre-Knowledge…Pre-Determined are not “wicked, evil, bad” things as you are trying to paint with a broad brush.

 

[Taken]

Once again, your confusion lies with you equating ones destiny to Gods knowledge of that destiny. They don't equate....

Disagree…
God Offers, God Reveals How…
Choose it or not…makes no difference…God already Knows your choice, has prepared according to your choice…and that is WHAT SHALL be…according to your liking or not.

 

[Logikos]

Taken will never admit to being wrong. He/she will only double down and come at you again. It is baffling to me how he/she became a "Staff Member".

I had no idea that he was a staff member.

By the way, if you're willing to hear some unsolicited advice...

Don't give the left our language. The masculine pronoun is the proper pronoun to use in English when the actual gender is unknown. "He/She" is just a tacit acceptance of the false premise that English speaking people are misogynistic and bigoted. Don't give them that unearned ground. They'll not be satisfied with it.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

I don't feel I have to "come down" on anything sister. There are things I dont feel I understand at all and am content to wait on the Lord for His light.

And only understanding in part here, but I believe man exercises His will, while the Lord directs his steps...in a sovereign kind of way according to His foreknowledge. But are there times when He restrains people from excercising their will? Maybe, though I don't believe that is the same as "controlling" people.

That makes some sense actually

 

[Marymog]

According to Gods Word…regardless how the parents raised the child, that child, is accountable for his OWN Choices.
Ya, think that a SURPRISE to God what that child chose?

No, I do not thing that it was a surprise to God what that child chose. I never said that or suggested that or implied that. You are still very confused.

YOU are suggesting that God made the choice to send that person to hell because God predetermined that the person would become an atheist. YOU are suggesting that no matter which choice we make in our lives God has already determined (predestined) us to our final choice. If God predetermined us to our final choice to become an atheist then God predetermined we would go to hell.

Your confusion is wearing me out kiddo.....

 

[Taken]

If it's Spiritual give you Scriptural evidence to back it up.....

Patient Mary

Not going to pick for you umpteen QUOTES from a Scriptural STUDY…that God is ALL KNOWING, PREPARED, and KNOWS everything, every thought, of every man.

You desperately are trying to MAKE Gods ORDER and WAY, secondary to a man.

 

[Logikos]

To everyone out there who thinks foreknowledge is causal:

Imagine you are on the top of a very tall building in midtown Manhattan, looking down on, say, Fifth Avenue and 34th Street. You notice two cars speeding toward that intersection at over 100 mph, one on 34th Street and the other on Fifth Avenue, heading for an inevitable deadly collision they can't see coming. You are gripped with fear, but unable to change the outcome. It happens. Both drivers are killed.

Shall we prosecute you for murder?

No one that I know of, or that I've ever encountered, believes that foreknowledge is causal. NO ONE! This objection is a classic, text book example of a straw man.

Infallible foreknowledge is, however, incompatible with free will. The two are quite mutually exclusive...

T = You answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am

1. Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
2. If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
3. It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
4. Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of “infallibility”]
5. If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
6. So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
7. If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of “necessary”]
8. Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
9. If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
10. Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]

Source

One is forced, therefore, to choose!

Does God have infallible foreknowledge, a Socrates, Plato and Aristotle taught but the bible does not teach or can you choose between life and death?

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;​

In both cases, the choice is both obvious and yours to make!