Thoughts on Christian Mysticism and Contemplative Practice

[St. SteVen]

"Hey God! You told me not to judge others!!

Where did he say that? (chapter and verse for your misquote) Thanks.

/

 

[marks]

Where did he say that? (chapter and verse for your misquote) Thanks.

You know how to do word searches. Hey, just call it a "parody", that let's us all off the hook, right??

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

...

The difference between pagan forms of meditation and Godly meditation is that the former empties the mind, whereas the latter fills it with the word of God.......and the word of God is what we are meditating on, chewing the cud of it....it is not extra-biblical unlike pagan meditation.

Is this so? What if one does a combination of the two? What does the following parable mean to you?

Lu 14:7	And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them,
Lu 14:8	When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
Lu 14:9	And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
Lu 14:10	But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
Lu 14:11	For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Many years ago, I started going to the lowest room in my morning study and prayer time just before reading each new chapter of the day. By this I mean that I strive to empty myself of all doctrines and beliefs I hold at the moment. For me this was humbling myself down to nothing before God to allow Him to correct or replace or completely eliminate what I had before starting. Let God say, "Friend, go up higher."

Then I talk to God in an unknown tongue so that my own mind does not reinsert any of my own ideas.

Then I read that particular chapter. At the beginning of the next chapter I would do the same.

Oftentimes, at the end of my time with God on a given morning, nothing definite that I could see has changed whereas at other times God has made some changes noticeable to me. I have been doing this for many years now: this bottom-starting, or going to the lowest room.

 

[St. SteVen]

You know how to do word searches. Hey, just call it a "parody", that let's us all off the hook, right??

You know how to accept correction so I'll let it go.

/

 

[Lizbeth]

Is this so? What if one does a combination of the two? What does the following parable mean to you?

Lu 14:7	And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them,
Lu 14:8	When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
Lu 14:9	And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
Lu 14:10	But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
Lu 14:11	For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Many years ago, I started going to the lowest room in my morning study and prayer time just before reading each new chapter of the day. By this I mean that I strive to empty myself of all doctrines and beliefs I hold at the moment. For me this was humbling myself down to nothing before God to allow Him to correct or replace or completely eliminate what I had before starting. Let God say, "Friend, go up higher."

Then I talk to God in an unknown tongue so that my own mind does not reinsert any of my own ideas.

Then I read that particular chapter. At the beginning of the next chapter I would do the same.

Oftentimes, at the end of my time with God on a given morning, nothing definite that I could see has changed whereas at other times God has made some changes noticeable to me. I have been doing this for many years now: this bottom-starting, or going to the lowest room.

Was this a formula or were you simply being led by the Spirit? Important difference. It can easily lead astray to depart from the simplicity of Christ, and that's what this "contemplative prayer" does, along with other things I've seen. If someone has to write entire books about something, it's usually because they've either turned something of God's into a formula or invented one on their own.....that they are even marketing. House of merchandise comes to mind. And marketing involves keeping the people entertained and excited and spending money on the newest novelty fad. How could that NOT lead astray? But yes, I suppose we can find justification for just about everything in the bible if we want to. Lots of vile things get justified by (mis-)using the bible down through the centuries. So we need to be careful and discerning.

For me I learned to try and not be "married" to too much apart from Christ and Him crucified, and that way it is not hard to lay things that I think I know on the altar and ask God to sift or tweek them as necessary when questions come up. When I go to Him and ask, I've found Him to be faithful to answer and He is not leading me astray. I'm willing to be corrected by Him.....holding onto things loosely so to speak, ie, in spirit...after all I reason that the truth doesn't belong to me, I didn't create it, it belongs to God. And there is the issue of growth and needing to remain a pliable new wineskin.

Just ask God...... who knew? There I said it in three words - simplicity itself - should I go write a book series about it and do a bunch of talk shows and conferences on it? Pardon my frankness in order to try and wake us up here, but the church has turned into a nut-house. Just like the world is doing. Maybe that's because the spirit of the world has invaded the church. Come out of her my people....hop out of that pot quickly, lest you be gradually and deceptively boiled to death.

 

[Lizbeth]

Show me "Trinity" in the Bible. (it isn't there)

/

No it isn't. Why do you bring it up?

 

[Lizbeth]

--- PARODY ---

Imagined conversation between Jesus and a distraught mother in heaven. (parody)

Mother: Lord, I was remembering my child.
Jesus: Yes, I can see her now in torment.
Mother: When will it end?
Jesus: Hell is forever.
Mother: Is there no hope for my child?
Jesus: Sorry, no hope for those in hell.
Mother: Surely my child has been punished enough by now.
Jesus: No, unbelief is an eternal crime.
Mother: I would gladly trade places with my child.
Jesus: I couldn't do that to you.
Mother: Why can you do it to my child?
Jesus: They are my enemy.
Mother: Didn't you teach us to love our enemies?
Jesus: Hmm... you got me there.

/

Your parodies are not biblical. The wages of sin is DEATH. The broad way leads to DESTRUCTION. Mortality as opposed to eternal life/immortality.

2Co 5:9-11

Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.



2Pe 3:10-12

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?



Rom 2:7

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

 

[O'Darby]

Oh sure, feel free to listen to God, but they are making something simple and normal into a horse of a different colour. It's deception. And it robs God of His glory and gives it to whoever is making this stuff up. Ear tickling, spine tingling utter NONSENSE.

OK, fair enough. Who is the "they" and what is the nonsense to which you refer? Understand, I'm not saying there isn't nonsense and that some of it isn't dangerous - just trying to clarify what you're talking about.

I happen to have read a great deal of Zen materials but have not practiced sitting. The "philosophy" of Zen is fascinating and can help inform one's Christianity, as many Christian writers have emphasized. Zen practice is "just sitting" - there is no goal. As practitioners go deeper into Zen, they are warned that the inevitable visions and whatnot are illusion and must be ignored.

Christian communion, on the other hand, starts with the premise that there is a God and communion is the goal. So it is inherently different from any form of meditation (or prayer, for that matter). The objective is to put aside all human notions that may interfere with the flow of the Spirit and simply receive what the Spirit communicates or reveals - not in the sense of expecting messages or anything like that, but more in the sense of simply basking in the divine glory.

 

[Behold]

I haven't done much with this,
A bit of reading. Discussing with others.
Tried breath prayer meditation. (the Jesus prayer)

Here's my personal favorite. (speak silently)

Behold the Lamb of God, (inhale)
who takes away the sin of the world. (exhale) repeat

/ @Chadrho @O'Darby

If you are going to try to learn more about your topic then you need to get material by these 2 women.
They wrote all about it.


1.) Jeanne Guyon

2.) Hidegard of Bingen

 

[Lizbeth]

OK, fair enough. Who is the "they" and what is the nonsense to which you refer? Understand, I'm not saying there isn't nonsense and that some of it isn't dangerous - just trying to clarify what you're talking about.

I happen to have read a great deal of Zen materials but have not practiced sitting. The "philosophy" of Zen is fascinating and can help inform one's Christianity, as many Christian writers have emphasized. Zen practice is "just sitting" - there is no goal. As practitioners go deeper into Zen, they are warned that the inevitable visions and whatnot are illusion and must be ignored.

Christian communion, on the other hand, starts with the premise that there is a God and communion is the goal. So it is inherently different from any form of meditation (or prayer, for that matter). The objective is to put aside all human notions that may interfere with the flow of the Spirit and simply receive what the Spirit communicates or reveals - not in the sense of expecting messages or anything like that, but more in the sense of simply basking in the divine glory.

Brother, I think it would be better to be washed with the washing of the water of the word and have your mind renewed (to the mind of Christ), so that you no longer look at the scriptures with reference to anything belonging to your past, but with entirely fresh eyes and let the word of God just speak to you and stand on its own. The carnal mind is enmity with God...but if we have received Christ we have the mind of Christ, which is of the HOLY Spirit, not the spirit of false religions and practices that are leading souls to perdition.

 

[O'Darby]

Brother, I think it would be better to be washed with the washing of the water of the word and have your mind renewed (to the mind of Christ), so that you no longer look at the scriptures with reference to anything belonging to your past, but with entirely fresh eyes and let the word of God just speak to you and stand on its own. The carnal mind is enmity with God...but if we have received Christ we have the mind of Christ, which is of the HOLY Spirit, not the spirit of false religions and practices that are leading souls to perdition.

Voila, I ask a sincere question and I get a lecture! Par for the course in "Christianity," I would have to say. On it goes ...

 

[Lizbeth]

Voila, I ask a sincere question and I get a lecture! Par for the course in "Christianity," I would have to say. On it goes ...

Listen honey. When someone is born again........we are like a new born babe, knowing nothing but Christ and Him crucified. We are an entirely new creature, a blank slate as concerns our past....our old sins are washed away. "Behold I make all things new and old things are passed away." Jesus is not just another god to add to the pantheon of gods from our past. Our old gods should have passed away from us and we have nothing to do with them any more, because we cannot partake of the table of demons at the same time as we are partaking of the table of the Lord......no man can serve two masters. If we are trying to eat of both it means we are not serving God. We cannot "halt between two opinions" like Elijah talked about. We need to reckon ourself completely dead to the past and the past is completely dead to us.

Beware because Pharaoh still tries to pursue the people of God even after we have left Egypt. We need to renounce and put away everything that belonged to our past....because that is all tainted and polluted and filthy, so we must not drink of those wells at all any more. Not even one sip.....put it away.....divorce yourself from it all......burn those books and idols like the early church did with theirs, or whatever the equivalent of that would be for you. And begin to drink and dine only on the pure word of God.

 

[O'Darby]

Listen honey. When someone is born again........we are like a new born babe, knowing nothing but Christ and Him crucified. We are an entirely new creature, a blank slate as concerns our past....our old sins are washed away. "Behold I make all things new and old things are passed away." Jesus is not just another god to add to the pantheon of gods from our past. Our old gods should have passed away from us and we have nothing to do with them any more, because we cannot partake of the table of demons at the same time as we are partaking of the table of the Lord......no man can serve two masters. If we are trying to eat of both it means we are not serving God. We cannot "halt between two opinions" like Elijah talked about. We need to reckon ourself completely dead to the past and the past is completely dead to us.

Beware because Pharaoh still tries to pursue the people of God even after we have left Egypt. We need to renounce and put away everything that belonged to our past....because that is all tainted and polluted and filthy, so we must not drink of those wells at all any more. Not even one sip.....put it away.....divorce yourself from it all......burn those books and idols like the early church did with theirs, or whatever the equivalent of that would be for you. And begin to drink and dine only on the pure word of God.

Listen, honey, back at ya: You and your ilk occupy a dark, fearful, joyless corner of "Christianity" with which I am well-acquainted. There is more joy, peace and love in the New Atheism than in that dark corner. Been there, done that - I escaped from your dark and fearful brand of Christianity decades ago because it literally sucks the joy out of life.

 

[amadeus]

Was this a formula or were you simply being led by the Spirit?

No it was not a formula as I believe that you mean it. I was led that Way by the Spirit. Too many people I believe stick to too many things as essentials not allowing God to correct or change them when perhaps they really need changing. I cannot change them nor can any man with his carefully eloquent arguments... even if they are wrong. How do I know it is them and not me who is wrong? God knows.

I strive daily to allow God to lead me in the right Way. Surrender to God is required. Humility is required. That is my view on things.

Important difference. It can easily lead astray to depart from the simplicity of Christ, and that's what this "contemplative prayer" does, along with other things I've seen.

Indeed, "Come to me [Jesus] as a little child", is the Way.

If someone has to write entire books about something, it's usually because they've either turned something of God's into a formula or invented one on their own.....that they are even marketing.

I am marketing nothing of that sort. I strive to walk toward God with Jesus. Can I help someone along their way? If God is leading me, I certainly can, but alone, I can do nothing.

House of merchandise comes to mind. And marketing involves keeping the people entertained and excited and spending money on the newest novelty fad. How could that NOT lead astray? But yes, I suppose we can find justification for just about everything in the bible if we want to. Lots of vile things get justified by (mis-)using the bible down through the centuries. So we need to be careful and discerning.

I keep on reading, studying and talking to God. I do not want to mislead anyone and when I am led by the Holy Spirit, I do not. The problem for all of us, I believe, comes when we quench the Spirit in us and take hold of our own reins. There is too much of that happening around us.

Jer 10:23

O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Ps 119:5

O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!

So who then is to direct our steps if not God Himself?

For me I learned to try and not be "married" to too much apart from Christ and Him crucified, and that way it is not hard to lay things that I think I know on the altar and ask God to sift or tweek them as necessary when questions come up. When I go to Him and ask, I've found Him to be faithful to answer and He is not leading me astray. I'm willing to be corrected by Him.....holding onto things loosely so to speak, ie, in spirit...after all I reason that the truth doesn't belong to me, I didn't create it, it belongs to God. And there is the issue of growth and needing to remain a pliable new wineskin.

The "holding onto things loosely...in Spirit" describes well what is needed. No one that I have met is now as "good" as he could be [as far as I can see]. Growing is needed, if we are to become more like Him each day and even in each moment. Jesus grew. Are we not also to grow for as long as we have time?

Just ask God...... who knew? There I said it in three words - simplicity itself - should I go write a book series about it and do a bunch of talk shows and conferences on it? Pardon my frankness in order to try and wake us up here, but the church has turned into a nut-house. Just like the world is doing. Maybe that's because the spirit of the world has invaded the church. Come out of her my people....hop out of that pot quickly, lest you be gradually and deceptively boiled to death.

All church groups of my experience have been teaching people to quench the Spirit with their various programs. Most places only allow a person to stand up and speak if they have obtained permission ahead of time to do so. Where is the lead of the Holy Spirit? Testimonies are only allowed when the man up front says it is time for them. Hmmm?

 

[Lizbeth]

Listen, honey, back at ya: You and your ilk occupy a dark, fearful, joyless corner of "Christianity" with which I am well-acquainted. There is more joy, peace and love in the New Atheism than in that dark corner. Been there, done that - I escaped from your dark and fearful brand of Christianity decades ago because it literally sucks the joy out of life.

Except I didn't say it in your tone of voice. Even so I apologize, I gathered that you were youngish, and I am oldish. ;)

What was dark, fearful and joyless about what I said? All things become new, the old has passed away....can't eat of two tables or serve two masters? What?

His commands are not burdensome.

 

[O'Darby]

Except I didn't say it in your tone of voice. Even so I apologize, I gathered that you were youngish, and I am oldish. ;)

What was dark, fearful and joyless about what I said? All things become new, the old has passed away....can't eat of two tables or serve two masters? What?

His commands are not burdensome.

It clearly says on every one of my posts that I am eight years older than you. However, I think you are quite correct that you are "oldish" while I am "youngish" I may have been oldish, too, 40 years ago.

I have now seen enough of your posts, including the dialogues in which @Episkopos takes you to task, to understand the brand of Christianity with which I am dealing. I don't say it isn't Christian. I simply say it is a dark, fearful, joyless, narrow Christianity that I want no part of.

 

[Episkopos]

Listen, honey, back at ya: You and your ilk occupy a dark, fearful, joyless corner of "Christianity" with which I am well-acquainted. There is more joy, peace and love in the New Atheism than in that dark corner. Been there, done that - I escaped from your dark and fearful brand of Christianity decades ago because it literally sucks the joy out of life.

Amen. You are describing an encounter with a religious spirit. One that justifies a person and "qualifies" them to then to judge everyone else. It's the opposite of love...pretentious, haughty, judgmental...assuming and presuming.

 

[Episkopos]

It clearly says on every one of my posts that I am eight years older than you. However, I think you are quite correct that you are "oldish" while I am "youngish" I may have been oldish, too, 40 years ago.

I have now seen enough of your posts, including the dialogues in which @Episkopos takes you to task, to understand the brand of Christianity with which I am dealing. I don't say it isn't Christian. I simply say it is a dark, fearful, joyless, narrow Christianity that I want no part of.

You are wise to do so. A religion of death demands you hold to certain beliefs. But the way of Christ is by life...an eternal kind of life that is full of joy, love and peace. The opposite is religion that smells of death and decay. But people will latch onto that death thinking that they are pleasing God with it....and that they will benefit eternally for it.

These do NOT know God or His ways.

 

[Lizbeth]

It clearly says on every one of my posts that I am eight years older than you. However, I think you are quite correct that you are "oldish" while I am "youngish" I may have been oldish, too, 40 years ago.

I have now seen enough of your posts, including the dialogues in which @Episkopos takes you to task, to understand the brand of Christianity with which I am dealing. I don't say it isn't Christian. I simply say it is a dark, fearful, joyless, narrow Christianity that I want no part of.

So you won't show me how what I said was dark and joyless to you?

As for me I have trouble accepting that someone is a Christian if he needs to read Zen in order to understand the bible. I want no part of that, and may heaven help such a one.

 

[lforrest]

My worry is the similarities with eastern mysticism and how eastern mysticism can involve channeling demons. @Michiah-Imla may know better.