Why do some people not like the idea of OSAS?

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Spyder

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Do you believe in Eternal Security? Will God revoke his gift?

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This gift is His New Covenant. He offers it freely, but we are told that to join with Him in this agreement. Jesus said:

Jn 6:27–29 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

This believe means that we have Jesus as mediator between His Father and ourselves, knowing that Jesus said repeatedly that all He said and did came from His Father. He said that, if we have Him, we'd obey His commandments. What happens if we don't obey. This covenant agreement must be upheld by both parties. We don't doubt God side of things, and we were warned about not upholding our part: While nobody can snatch us from His hand, we can wander off from it.

Matthew 7:21 ESV “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 10:22 ESV And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 13:3-8 ESV And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Matthew 24:13 ESV But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:24 ESV For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:13 ESV And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Luke 8:13 ESV And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

John 3:36 ESV Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 15:6 ESV If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Romans 2:6-8 ESV He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Romans 8:12-13 ESV So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Romans 11:19-22 ESV Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

1 Corinthians 10:12 ESV Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

Galatians 4:9 ESV But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?

Galatians 6:8-9 ESV For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

Colossians 1:21-23 ESV And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

1 Timothy 4:1 ESV Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Hebrews 3:12-14 ESV Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Hebrews 5:9 ESV And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Hebrews 10:26 ESV For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

James 5:19-20 ESV My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

2 Peter 1:10 ESV Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

2 Peter 2:20-22 ESV For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

Revelation 2:4-5 ESV “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. ...

Revelation 3:2-5 ESV Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
 

St. SteVen

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I just can't square eternal security with the coming judgment that Scripture references. There is little point in a judgment if 100% will be judged positively.
What I am calling Eternal Security is not the same as Universal Salvation. (UR) Two different things.

To me, the judgment is about rewards and correction. The goal is restoration, not punishment.
We are all familiar with the wood, hay and stubble that will burn up. (1 Cor. 3:12-15)
And the one with a total loss still being saved, as one through the flames.

Refinement and cleansing.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

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St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
Do you believe in Eternal Security? Will God revoke his gift?
This gift is His New Covenant. He offers it freely, but we are told that to join with Him in this agreement. Jesus said:
So... you do NOT believe in Eternal Security then? Okay.
Enjoy your eternal insecurity then. - LOL
You will just have to wait and see if you did everything right.
And if not... you're toast, right?

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

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RedFan

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What I am calling Eternal Security is not the same as Universal Salvation. (UR) Two different things.

To me, the judgment is about rewards and correction. The goal is restoration, not punishment.
We are all familiar with the wood, hay and stubble that will burn up. (1 Cor. 3:12-15)
And the one with a total loss still being saved, as one through the flames.

Refinement and cleansing.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap

What I am calling Eternal Security is not the same as Universal Salvation. (UR) Two different things.

To me, the judgment is about rewards and correction. The goal is restoration, not punishment.
We are all familiar with the wood, hay and stubble that will burn up. (1 Cor. 3:12-15)
And the one with a total loss still being saved, as one through the flames.

Refinement and cleansing.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

/
Understood. But Christians are subject to the judgement too. Are they all to be ushered in past the Pearly Gates. regardless of how they have lived their lives or how well they have walked the walk? That would make their judgment rather pointless, wouldn't it?
 

St. SteVen

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Understood. But Christians are subject to the judgement too. Are they all to be ushered in past the Pearly Gates. regardless of how they have lived their lives or how well they have walked the walk? That would make their judgment rather pointless, wouldn't it?
The judgment and restoration comes before the ushering in. The point is reconciliation and redemption.
Nations and leaders, both government and spiritual will be judged, as well as individuals.
Every word and deed laid bare for all to see. This surgery of opening all things will lead to healing.
Not much point in the tree of life bringing healing to the nations if the nations are not all present.

Revelation 22:2 NIV
down the middle of the great street of the city.
On each side of the river stood the tree of life,
bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month.
And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

/
 

RedFan

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Well, maybe we will all be reconciled and redeemed. Maybe some of us won't. I don't know. It's nice to think that Jesus won't lose a single one of us (John 6:39), but some Christians do seem bent on getting lost.
 

St. SteVen

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Well, maybe we will all be reconciled and redeemed. Maybe some of us won't. I don't know. It's nice to think that Jesus won't lose a single one of us (John 6:39), but some Christians do seem bent on getting lost.
It is God's will that everyone will be saved. Will humans prevent him from fulfilling his will?

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

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RedFan

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It is God's will that everyone will be saved. Will humans prevent him from fulfilling his will?
I pray aloud, “Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven,” but I think to myself, is God’s will not always done? Scripture reports that Job said to God, “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.” Doesn’t that make it pointless to pray that God’s will be done? Who can resist it? Yet I know that the Lord would never institute an irrelevancy. He wants us to desire the same things as God. He asks us to conform our wills to God’s.
 
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Big Boy Johnson

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You have not backed up your assertion with the quotes you provided and you dodge further confirmation

I don't have to prove anything to you... there's all kinds of videos of Gnarly Charlie's own TV broadcast where he is teaching things God's Word does not teach... such as eternal security. Go do your own research.

I gave you quotes from his book, and the reason you refuse to go buy his book as see for yourself is because deep down you know what I'm telling you is correct. clueless-doh.gif

Gnarly Charlie Stanley taught the wisdom of men as though it were the wisdom of God... so he put a lot of lipstick on that eternal security pig to make it sound plausible. But, he never could fool those that know God's Word.
 

St. SteVen

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I pray aloud, “Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven,” but I think to myself, is God’s will not always done? ...
There you go. God's will is DONE in heaven. Will the judgement take place here, or there?

St. SteVen said:
It is God's will that everyone will be saved. Will humans prevent him from fulfilling his will?

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MA2444

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I don't have to prove anything to you... there's all kinds of videos of Gnarly Charlie's own TV broadcast where he is teaching things God's Word does not teach... such as eternal security. Go do your own research.

That's right. You don't have to prove anything to me. I'm nobody. But you made a pretty bad assertion against the man Charles Stanley, which I immediately saw to be untrue. So I asked you, brother, is that right? Can you give an example of what you say? Chapter verse, whatever, page number. Now you're raising the stakes against him with further assertions that not only is your proof in Charles Stanleys books, but in a lot of his videos also!

And then you refuse to post any proof whatsoever of anything you said. Do my own research? Ha! That merely tells me that you don't have your ducks in a row at all.
And I have done my research already. I have watch hundreds, perhaps 1000's of his videos. I know of what he speaks, what he holds to be true and a good character. These things are evident about Charles Stanley.

Charles Stanley and In Touch Ministries are all over Youtube brother, so go find one that can serve as a duck in your row of zero ducks. We can see his video and then break out the scriptures in order to find the truth about this mans messages! Good plan? A Solid plan.

You are wrong about Charles Stanley and it will be impossible for you prove otherwise. I know him better than that! What now? Brush me off again? Do my own research? I did, you are wrong. Either show me or not.
 
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Big Boy Johnson

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Will humans prevent him from fulfilling his will?

In some cases... yes. God does not override the free will of men

Ezekiel 3:18
When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand



But you made a pretty bad assertion against the man Charles Stanley, which I immediately saw to be untrue.

Actually, I compared some of what Gnarly Charlie teaches to God's Word... and 'ol Gnarly Charlie was found lacking!


Can you give an example of what you say?

I already have... I posted quotes from his book and videos so you could hear him teach false doctrine for yourself... such as claiming one can be gay and still be saved. That's false doctrine and is in opposition to what God's Word teaches

If you need assistance with refreshing yo memories... go back to Post #462


And then you refuse to post any proof whatsoever of anything you said.

As already mentioned... I posted videos and quotes from his book... you can take it from there.


We can see his video and then break out the scriptures in order to find the truth about this mans messages! Good plan? A Solid plan.

I've already done that, years ago and found him to be a false teacher after comparing what he says to what the Lord teaches in his word.


You are wrong about Charles Stanley and it will be impossible for you prove otherwise.

You really need to repent of idolatry!
You have obviously made Gnarly Charlie into an idol agree.gif
 
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BlessedPeace

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I don't have to prove anything to you...
Oh,you're wrong there. You made the allegations against Dr. Stanley and his ministry.
The onus is on you to prove your claim against him.


Since you know you cannot do that, your claims are to be understood as slander, defamation of his character,and outright intentional and with malace of forethought to that end, damnable lies.

Christians do not do that. Especially to the dead.

We see what you are. And though you don't agree, God does too.
 
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Big Boy Johnson

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Oh,you're wrong there. You made the allegations against Dr. Stanley and his ministry.
The onus is on you to prove your claim against him.

I already did... go back to Post #462

Quotes from his book, and video where you can hear him say one can be gay and still be a Christian!

You gay friendly? All good with "christians" doing sexual perversion?
Your boy Gnarly Charlie has no problem with it as long as one claimed to be a christian.

You obviously are another one who idolizes this guy putting what he says above God's Word!


Since you know you cannot do that, your claims are to be understood as slander, defamation of his character,and outright intentional and with malace of forethought to that end, damnable lies.

Christians do not do that. Especially to the dead.

We see what you are. And though you don't agree, God does too.

Well it's sad you don't know God's Word good enough to recognize a charlatan when you see one

He was a charlatan long before he croaked, and now that he's dead he's still a charlatan.

Just because someone dies doesn't mean their false teachings are to be treated any differently than a false teacher that is alive.
 

Spyder

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St. SteVen said:
Do you believe in Eternal Security? Will God revoke his gift?

So... you do NOT believe in Eternal Security then? Okay.
Enjoy your eternal insecurity then. - LOL
You will just have to wait and see if you did everything right.
And if not... you're toast, right?

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

/
Actually, I believe what God has said in the bible. We cannot cherry-pick verses and create a doctrine - at least we are not supposed to. If you think I am wrong, please show me how the bible shows my references to be incorrect.
 

Hobie

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I know some people like to pass judgments on others that confess to be sinners. This thread is not about that. And I often wonder why people fight the OSAS idea. I also don't believe in OSAS, but I believe in a version that allows for God to save people if he desires.

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

I think no one, the devil or man, can snatch God's people out of his hand. But they can reject God by free choice. Let's pray for the sinners that they are given power to overcome sin as well. As God only promotes righteousness in his word.

I'm reminded of the words of Jesus regarding people that would be jealous of God saving sinners:

Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Because even Christ knew we could fall back into sin...
John 5:14
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

But the devil comes up with this deception much as he did in the Garden of Eden...
Genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
 

St. SteVen

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Actually, I believe what God has said in the bible. We cannot cherry-pick verses and create a doctrine - at least we are not supposed to. If you think I am wrong, please show me how the bible shows my references to be incorrect.
What shall separate us from the love of God?

Question: What do the two views say about the character of God?

I asked you twice whether or not you believe in Eternal Security.
Failure to provide an answer in the affirmative leads me to assume that you don't believe in Eternal Security.

I already know that there are two conflicting sides to the OSAS debate.
I have zero interest in rebuttals and more rebuttals. Bible versus Bible.
Either side could be accused of cherry-picking scriptures to "create" a doctrine.
All doctrine is man-made anyway. So why fuss about that?

Are you not familiar with the scriptures that support OSAS? (Eternal Security)

I have a position, that is enough. (for me)
We cannot by an act of our own will undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of reprobation, it is God's choice, not ours. And His aim is always to bring the lost sheep back.

I'm well aware that there are scriptures that say the opposite. You posted a bunch.

Question: What do the two views say about the character of God?

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