Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

[atpollard]

A heretic created the "doctrine of Election".

That is a HARSH way to speak about the Apostle Paul (author of Romans and Ephesians).
He built the modern "NT" understanding of Predestination and Election on the foundation of the "OT" teachings and examples.

 

[DJT_47]

Was the laying on of the Apostles hands required before chapter eight?
Appears that the Apostles were sent to address a problem that had not previously occurred.
Was the laying on of the Apostles hands required in Acts chapter ten, at the house of Cornelius?

2 different issues entirely. Acts 10 AND Acts 2 were extremely unique and for very specific reasons. In both cases the Holy Ghost fell unilaterally on the apostles in Acts 2 and on the Gentiles in Acts 10. What was Unique and special requiring the Holy Ghost to fall in such a manner? What did those 2 events have in common? In both cases, it was the beginning of the church, 1st in Jerusalem with the Jews and then in Caesarea with the Gentiles. The falling of the Holy Ghost was to validate what was occurring, that it was God's will. No other instances recorded in the bible did the Holy Spirit fall in this way. All other accounts required the laying on of the apostle's hands in order to impart the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit, the gifts listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Baptism IS water baptism unless otherwise specifically stated starting with the precedent established by John's baptism, so the mere mention of baptism IS water immersion.

Um no it is not

Please look up the greek word Baptizo. from where the english transliteration comes from.. It does not mean water

 

[DJT_47]

Um

Um no it is not

Please look up the greek word Baptizo. from where the english transliteration comes from.. It does not mean water

Um, yes it is and I know exactly what the Greek word baptizo means; dip, plunge, immerse. In what kool-aid, salsa, ??? Where did John the Baptist baptize? The Jordan River, and that was the precedent set as I mentioned that you conveniently overlooked. Why would anyone think it means something else such as when reading Mark 16:15-16? Did Jesus not mean baptize in water?

 

[St. SteVen]

2 different issues entirely. Acts 10 AND Acts 2 were extremely unique and for very specific reasons. In both cases the Holy Ghost fell unilaterally on the apostles in Acts 2 and on the Gentiles in Acts 10. What was Uniondale special requiring the Holy Ghost to fall in such a manner? What did those 2 events had in common? In both cases, it was the beginning of the church, 1st in Jerusalem with the Jews and then in Caesarea with the Gentiles. The falling of the Holy Ghost was to validate what was occurring, that it was God's will. No other instances recorded in the bible did the Holy Spirit fall in this way. All other accounts required the laying on of the apostle's hands in order to impart the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit, the gifts listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10.

I partially agree. The two outpourings were unique. However, I don't believe the Apostles were required to lay hands on those receiving the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. I asked: "Was the laying on of the Apostles hands required before chapter eight?" They added 3,000 to the church at the end of Acts chapter two. Another 2,000 were added in chapter four. More and more were added in chapter five, That's a lot of hand laying.

And who baptized Saul in Damascus?

 

[Behold]

That is a HARSH way to speak about the Apostle Paul (author of Romans and Ephesians).

Paul didnt create 'the doctrine of election".

So, its not good to accuse Paul of Calvin's heresy.

 

[DJT_47]

I partially agree. The two outpourings were unique. However, I don't believe the Apostles were required to lay hands on those receiving the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. I asked: "Was the laying on of the Apostles hands required before chapter eight?" They added 3,000 to the church at the end of Acts chapter two. Another 2,000 were added in chapter four. More and more were added in chapter five, That's a lot of hand laying.

And who baptized Saul in Damascus?

It was necessary as stated and as recorded. The 3000 were added as recorded in Acts 2, so, that's still part of the aforementioned Acts 2 scenario. No hands of the apostles was laid on anyone and only the apostles spike with other tongues.

No record of the number beyond the 3000 either which covets the additional 2000, but also, no record of those additional having any of the gifts or demonstrating miraculous manifestations of the Spirit.

In Acts 6, the apostles prayed and did laying hands on those chosen which included Stephen who then performed great wonders and miracles.

In Acts 9, Saul was baptized by Ananias. Don't confuse the words of Ananias with the Lord's as most fo. What Ananias said is NOT what the Lord said. Ananias added the words "and be filled with the Holy Ghost" in verse 17, which some say is the falling of the Holy Ghost, whereas the Lord did NOT commission Ananias as such per verse 12. And read Paul's recount of his conversion in Acts 22 which is in agreement with the Lord's commission to Ananias. And Acts 22:16 also confirms what was meant by Ananias words regarding the Holy Ghost in Acts 9; Paul was baptized, and it's at that point that he received the gift of the Holy Ghost as does everyone who is baptized into Christ according to Acts 2:38.

 

[Behold]

it's at that point that he received the gift of the Holy Ghost as does everyone who is baptized into Christ according to Acts 2:38.

Yet, during that Pentecost... Peter and the 120 in the upper room, all spoke with tongues , yet none of them were water baptized in Act 2:38.

Also, the 11 Apostles, were given the Holy Spirit, in John 20:22, and none of them were water baptized, and none of them spoke in "tongues".

Water is just water.
Nothing else.

Acts 2:38 is not the "Gospel".

The Gospel came later as Paul gave it as "My Gospel"...., and we preach it as "The Gospel of the Grace of God".

 

[DJT_47]

Yet, during that Pentecost... Peter and the 120 in the upper room, all spoke with tongues , yet none of them were water baptized in Act 2:38.

Also, the 11 Apostles, were given the Holy Spirit, in John 20:22, and none of them were water baptized, and none of them spoke in "tongues".

Water is just water.
Nothing else.

Acts 2:38 is not the "Gospel".

The Gospel came later as Paul gave it as "My Gospel"...., and we preach it as "The Gospel of the Grace of God".

You have it wrong. Only the 11, not the 120 spoke in other tongues. This was part of the power from on high promised to the 11 by the Lord as recorded in Luke 24:49. Read the entire text of Luke and read carefully Acts 2 and it's clear that it's just the 11.

And what's your point about the Lord treating uniquely the apostles as recorded in John? That does not mean that it applies or applied to everyone nor does it have anything to do with the requirement for baptism. Tell Jesus baptism isn't necessary which is in direct conflict with his words in Mark 16:15-16 and erase baptism ftom the bible also which you've probably already done.

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[Behold]

You have it wrong. Only the 11, not the 120 spoke in other tongues.

Whomever was in the upper room, got the gift.

And notice that NONE, not the 11, not the 120, were water baptized.

 

[Behold]

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Notice that Damnation, is the 2nd part of your verse, and WATER is left out.

That is because WATER has no part in SALVATION, as its UNBELIEF, never being born again that sends you to Hell after you die.

Notice this verse, is not aimed at those who didnt get in the city water supply.

John 3:36

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son (does not BELIEVE).. shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Notice that God's wrath REMAINS on the UNBELIEVER, who is never born again.

Water is irrelevant., as its just water.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Um no it is not

Please look up the greek word Baptizo. from where the english transliteration comes from.. It does not mean water

It means "immersion" and water is the typical liquid. :) But the word can also be used to describe the dyeing of cloth or any other process that involves the immersion of something into liquid.

In my view, the reason why the Bible speaks about baptism is due to its cultural significance. Baptism in water was the culturally accepted way for a potential student to indicate a commitment to a particular teacher. For instance, those who were "baptized into" John became students of John the Baptist. Likewise, then, those who were baptized into Christ became disciples of Christ.

In a sense, to be baptized "into" a person is to agree and acknowledge support and belief in the teaching of the baptizer. Thus, when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, Jesus was essentially saying, "I agree with his message."

 

[St. SteVen]

It was necessary as stated and as recorded. The 3000 were added as recorded in Acts 2, so, that's still part of the aforementioned Acts 2 scenario. No hands of the apostles was laid on anyone and only the apostles spike with other tongues.

No record of the number beyond the 3000 either which covets the additional 2000, but also, no record of those additional having any of the gifts or demonstrating miraculous manifestations of the Spirit.

In Acts 6, the apostles prayed and did laying hands on those chosen which included Stephen who then performed great wonders and miracles.

In Acts 9, Saul was baptized by Ananias. Don't confuse the words of Ananias with the Lord's as most fo. What Ananias said is NOT what the Lord said. Ananias added the words "and be filled with the Holy Ghost" in verse 17, which some say is the falling of the Holy Ghost, whereas the Lord did NOT commission Ananias as such per verse 12. And read Paul's recount of his conversion in Acts 22 which is in agreement with the Lord's commission to Ananias. And Acts 22:16 also confirms what was meant by Ananias words regarding the Holy Ghost in Acts 9; Paul was baptized, and it's at that point that he received the gift of the Holy Ghost as does everyone who is baptized into Christ according to Acts 2:38.

So, you are a Cessationist, then?
You do not believe that the miracle gifts are in operation today?
No tongues, no interpretation, no prophecy, no words of knowledge or wisdom, no discerning spirits, no healing, no gift of miracles... ???

 

[DJT_47]

Whomever was in the upper room, got the gift.

And notice that NONE, not the 11, not the 120, were water baptized.

You obviously didn't read the text carefully. Start with the below Luke and continue to Acts 1 also below.

Luke 24 starting @ verse 33

33And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the ELEVEN gathered together, and them that were with them, 34Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. 35And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread. 36And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43And he took it, and did eat before them. Jesus Opens the Meaning of Scriptures 44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48And ye are witnesses of these things. 49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. Acts 1 1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. In the above Acts 1, who is being referenced? It's the 11. Then read a bit further. 6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. When you read through the rest of Acts, the word "they" continually refers to the 11. And in verse 15 of Acts 1, it makes mention of the 120 deciples and Peter speaking on their midst, and out of that total were 2 chosen as possible replacement for Judas of which Matthias was ultimately chosen, becoming the 12th apostle. Then continuing into Acts 2, the word ,"they" continues to refer to the apostles upon which the Holy Ghost falls, consistent with Acts 1 and Luke 24.

 

[DJT_47]

So, you are a Cessationist, then?
You do not believe that the miracle gifts are in operation today?
No tongues, no interpretation, no prophecy, no words of knowledge or wisdom, no discerning spirits, no healing, no gift of miracles... ???

The gifts have all ceased as 1 cor 13:8 says they would. They were needed then for a variety of reasons, but not now. Yes, none of those gifts, or manifestations of the Spirit, are present today.

 

[DJT_47]

It means "immersion" and water is the typical liquid. :) But the word can also be used to describe the dyeing of cloth or any other process that involves the immersion of something into liquid.

In my view, the reason why the Bible speaks about baptism is due to its cultural significance. Baptism in water was the culturally accepted way for a potential student to indicate a commitment to a particular teacher. For instance, those who were "baptized into" John became students of John the Baptist. Likewise, then, those who were baptized into Christ became disciples of Christ.

In a sense, to be baptized "into" a person is to agree and acknowledge support and belief in the teaching of the baptizer. Thus, when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, Jesus was essentially saying, "I agree with his message."

Mark 16:16 rewritten

"He that believeth and dyes cloth shall be saved--------"

 

[Behold]

. Thus, when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, Jesus was essentially saying, "I agree with his message."

Perhaps its best to Let Jesus explain it...then to just guess and hope for the best.

Jesus said..

'""""Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to = fulfill all righteousness.”

 

[Behold]

Then continuing into Acts 2, the word ,"they" continues to refer to the apostles upon which the Holy Ghost falls, consistent with Acts 1 and Luke 24.

Notice who is in the "upper room".

Find your answer.

Here is the upper room.... its big. It can easily accommodate more then 120 people.
-

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Um

Um, yes it is and I know exactly what the Greek word baptizo means; dip, plunge, immerse. In what kool-aid, salsa, ??? Where did John the Baptist baptize? The Jordan River, and that was the precedent set as I mentioned that you conveniently overlooked. Why would anyone think it means something else such as when reading Mark 16:15-16? Did Jesus not mean baptize in water?

Actually it means even more. It means to place into. to place into union with (the children of Israel were baptized into moses)

But you are right, there must be somethign we are placed into.

romans 6 tells us just what that is

Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that as many of us as were Placed into Christ Jesus were Placed into His death?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all Placed into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27

For as many of you as were Placed into Christ have put on Christ.

As you can see here. It again tells us what we were baptised into

1. Jesus Christ
2. His death
3. His body
4. Christ

there is no water.. that would make no sense. baptized into water into christ.. that would be two things they are baptized into.;

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It means "immersion" and water is the typical liquid. :) But the word can also be used to describe the dyeing of cloth or any other process that involves the immersion of something into liquid.

In my view, the reason why the Bible speaks about baptism is due to its cultural significance. Baptism in water was the culturally accepted way for a potential student to indicate a commitment to a particular teacher. For instance, those who were "baptized into" John became students of John the Baptist. Likewise, then, those who were baptized into Christ became disciples of Christ.

In a sense, to be baptized "into" a person is to agree and acknowledge support and belief in the teaching of the baptizer. Thus, when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, Jesus was essentially saying, "I agree with his message."

The children of Israel were baptized into moses, in the cloud and the sea

Moses was the head. as the head. the people of Israel were placed into him as the head

thats what it means to be baptized into christ. we are baptized into union with him, him being the head.