Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as faith alone..
However, we are saved by Grace through faith NOT WORKS.
faith minus works equals faith plus nothing.
Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?
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However, we are saved by Grace through faith NOT WORKS.
faith minus works equals faith plus nothing.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Actually it was a point. Jesus was refuting the leaven of the pharisees, who boasted of their works like you are doing
Spirit baptism is the act of the HS baptising us into the death of Christ,. Himself and his body.
in Acts 2: 38 peter told those who repented and recieved the spirit to be baptised becaused they recieved remission of sin.
No one has ever been saved from the beginning of time because they were baptized by another man or woman..
Rev_2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev_2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev_2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev_2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev_2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Rev_2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev_2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev_3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev_3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev_3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev_3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Pretty self explanatory.
J.
Who said I kept saying you are wrong? If you are wrong-you are wrong-yes?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
My post was not directed to or at you. I know it can appear that way simply because it followed your post (just the luck of the timing of when the post dropped). There was a "theme" that resurfaced periodically across the last few pages that seemed to imply that faith cannot save until activated by works. I strongly believe that Ephesians 2 says differently and wanted to offer an open challenge to that THOUGHT rather than any specific post (since most posts dealt with some other subject and that thought seemed to just sort of "creep in").
Now I did question your claim of "collective love" and "individual salvation" based on John 3:16, but I quoted you in that challenge and explained why I read John 3 as "individual love". Which is a technical nit pick of a specific exegetical point between Christian Brothers ... Iron sharpening Iron.
Yes, we are to be baptized by the Holy Spirit. We can be baptized by water for a public announcement and act of obedience.
but water baptisms does not save you or cleanse you.
Entrance into God's Kingdom requires rebirth of the spirit through the Spirit by faith. Nothing else.
but water baptisms does not save you or cleanse you.
Entrance into God's Kingdom requires rebirth of the spirit through the Spirit by faith. Nothing else.
Challenge accepted-Iron sharpens iron.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Now since Scripture is full of paradoxes and tension filled-as I am sure you would agree-
Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
How do you reconcile these verses plus the verses you have given me-without sounding like Universalism or Calvinism?
Let's debate in a cordial manner brother-using the Scriptures.
Johann.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
and no cut n pastes just your own thoughts from the bible. :)
how it that ?
btw- there is no contradiction for those who the Son has granted eyes to see and ears to hear. :)
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
You’re stuck on works. So much you can;t even comprehend what others are saying
I suggest you move on..
Challenge accepted-Iron sharpens iron.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Now since Scripture is full of paradoxes and tension filled-as I am sure you would agree-
Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
How do you reconcile these verses plus the verses you have given me-without sounding like Universalism or Calvinism?
Let's debate in a cordial manner brother-using the Scriptures.
On another note-lets not-too many power outs here in SA and some "heated" members.
Johann.
No problem.
J.
You continue to be wrong and not understanding scripture. I'm not boasting of my works! Where did you get that from???
Cite the scripture(s) on the so called
HS baptizing us. The scripture, if it's the one I think you're referring to is, Romans 6:3-6 below which is clearly referring to water baptism as it's comparing it to a burial and resurrection like as Christ. Has zero to do with "HS" baptism ad you've stated and inferred.
And you conveniently changed the sequence of events of Acts 2:38 by putting the receipt of the Holy Spirit before baptism, not after and as a result thereof. Changing scripture to suite your beliefs really doesn't work.
Rom 6:3-6
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Acts 2:38
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Its okay to be baptised in water as long you know its Jesus who baptizes you in holy spirit and fire and you desire to commit your life to him.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Perhaps I can help.
John the Baptist made reference to it. "... he will baptize you with the Spirit and fire..."
And Jesus in Acts chapter one.
Acts 1:5 NIV
For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”
Check out my topic on the question.
Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?
Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit? Just to be clear, I do not question whether the believers in Samaria had received the "indwelling" Spirit when they believed. They were missing something else. Acts 8:14-17 NIV When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that...
www.christianityboard.com
@Eternally Grateful
Not really helping anyone since your understanding of John's words is lacking. You must understand who John's audience was and must read further in Luke 3 and Matt 3 to further interpret Acts 2 correctly. It was the apostles who were baptized with the Holy Ghost which references back to the promise made by the Lord in Luke 24:49 as the power from on high (Read Luke 24:36-49). That power was for the apostles which they did receive as per Acts 2 and which they were further able to impart to others in the form of manifestations of the Spirit (the gifts) that were made manifest by the laying on of their hands.Perhaps I can help.
John the Baptist made reference to it. "... he will baptize you with the Spirit and fire..."
And Jesus in Acts chapter one.
Acts 1:5 NIV
For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”
Check out my topic on the question.
Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?
Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit? Just to be clear, I do not question whether the believers in Samaria had received the "indwelling" Spirit when they believed. They were missing something else. Acts 8:14-17 NIV When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that...
@Eternally Grateful
Luke calls the audience a generation of vipers and Matt goes further stating the audience consisted of Pharisees and Sadducees. And when you read further down in Matthew 3 you understand that the baptism of fire is actually the unquenchable fires of hell, and that's in direct reference to what's in store for the aforementioned audience as result of the purge mentioned.
Matt 3:7-12
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I might not be able to avoid sounding like a Calvinist … I am a Particular Baptist (a Baptist that believes that Jesus’ Atonement was for ‘particular’ - aka. Specific - people rather that for all people in ‘general’ - aka. General Baptist).
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
- Nobody is able to come to Jesus - although technically, nobody is willing would be more accurate, as in
- [John 3:19-20 NASB20] "And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed.”
- everybody sins, so everybody hates the Light and fears their deeds will be exposed.
- we naturally run and hide just like Adam and Eve
- rather than let EVERYONE be damned (Justice, but no mercy), God the Father steps in and DRAWS some (irresistible pull, like fish in a net or a sword from a sheath) to the Son.
- [Ephesians 2:1-5 NASB20] And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
- Father chooses, Son saves, Holy Spirit perseveres.
- Jesus promises to finish what the Father starts … to loose NONE that the Father has given Him.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
- All without distinction, not all without exception.
- [Rev 5:6-10 NASB20] And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. And He came and took [the scroll] out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased [people] for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation. You have made them [into] a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth."
- every tribe, language, people and nation = “all men” without distinction
You just admitted that faith alone salvation is fictitious!!!
Better get out of your Baptist sect! That is the doctrine your church teaches.
You quoted Ephesians 2:8-9,
Saved by Grace through faith NOT WORKS
Except you do as all faith onlyist's do and say ALL works are not involved in salvation.
You never learned that Paul is teaching meritorious works in Ephesians 2:8-9,
Do you not know that there are all kinds of works in the Bible?
If faith saves and it does then we must work the commandment to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23-24.
You cannot have faith alone(no works) salvation without the obedient work of obeying the commandment to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23-24.
Also do you not realize that you are making contradictory statements?
You said there is no such thing as faith alone
Then you said faith minus works equals faith minus nothing.
Those two statements contradict one another.
Faith minus works equals faith minus nothing
Faith minus nothing = FAITH ALONE
When faith is alone it is not true saving faith!!!
As you already said there is no such thing as faith alone.
Well Sir, there is such a thing as faith alone, the Bible teaches about it.
James 2:19,
- you believe there is one God, you do well, even the demons believe...
The demons have a belief that is apart from good works, thus faith without works is faith alone.
So the Bible does teach there is faith alone and that this faith alone cannot save,
James 2:24,
- you see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone
Hello, sounds like you have the same interpretation of John Calvin,
That does not mean God preselected certain individuals to purchase with His blood.
We choose to give our lives to God.
God then purchases us with His blood.
We are given the freewill to be purchased by Him.
God does not draw men today directly by going to certain individuals
He draws us all through the written gospel that God has made available to all.
John 6:44-45,
- No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him and I will raise him up in the last day
- It is written in the prophets and they shall all be TAUGHT BY GOD Therefore everyone who has HEARD and LEARNED from the Father comes to Me
God draws us by teaching of the written word,
Romans 10:17,
- Now faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the WORD of God
Faith is given to us through hearing the word of God, teaching.
By God drawing all through His written word is how we know we are saved,
1John 5:13,
- These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE
God does not directly go to preselected individuals and draw them to Himself.
God draws all through the teaching of the written word, the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Yes, God has purchased all who He saved.
That does not mean God preselected certain individuals to purchase with His blood.
We choose to give our lives to God.
God then purchases us with His blood.
We are given the freewill to be purchased by Him.
All men are drawn to God. Not a select few.
God does not draw men today directly by going to certain individuals
He draws us all through the written gospel that God has made available to all.
Sir, the very next verse teaches how God draws all men to Him
John 6:44-45,
- No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him and I will raise him up in the last day
- It is written in the prophets and they shall all be TAUGHT BY GOD Therefore everyone who has HEARD and LEARNED from the Father comes to Me
God draws us by teaching of the written word,
Romans 10:17,
- Now faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the WORD of God
Faith is given to us through hearing the word of God, teaching.
By God drawing all through His written word is how we know we are saved,
1John 5:13,
- These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE
God does not directly go to preselected individuals and draw them to Himself.
God draws all through the teaching of the written word, the gospel of Jesus Christ.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Purely an accident. I care no more for what John said than what the Early Church Father’s said. If I want advice, I prefer “Apostles” and “Prophets” already vetted and bound into 66 books that have stood the test of 2000 years (Well, sort of … there was that whole ‘apocrypha’ incident … but we worked that out.) ;)
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Does this?
[Romans 8:28-30 NASB20] And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers [and sisters;] and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
What about this?
[Ephesians 1:3-14 NASB20] Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons [and daughters] through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, regarding [His] plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in the Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.