Will Trump seek asylum in Israel and Build the 3rd Temple?

[Freedm]

Paul gave us that "weak assertion". Paul claimed he would be alive at the Second Coming. Was Paul being foolish or hopeful?

Paul was alive at the second coming.

 

[Freedm]

That has nothing to do with the Second Coming.

That was available because of the Cross, when Jesus declared, "It is finished".

From that point on, those in Christ did not experience death. Not even Stephen as he was being stoned. They thought they could kill him, but he already saw heaven opened and Jesus waiting to receive him into eternal life. That made them even more angry. They knew they could not kill him, and destroy his body as they did with those who disobeyed the Law of Moses. All their authority was gone, taken away by the Cross.

You can look up the passages and discuss if you want to. It is all there in Scripture.

I think you just proved my point. We can no longer die, which also means we can no longer be resurrected. So how do you reconcile that with a supposed future resurrection?

 

[Freedm]

So the gospel ended before Paul died? It has only been heretical theology from that point on? If you say so.

What nonsense are you speaking? Why do you put words in my mouth? If you don't understand what I'm saying, ask for clarification, don't make ridiculous assertions.

 

[Freedm]

The point is not whether clouds are literal or symbolic. The point is this place is where both groups meet each other. When you state clouds are only symbolic, you imply this meeting is symbolic and never literally happens. Clouds are literal and the place of meeting is a literal place. This is not symbolic of judgment. This is about literal clouds and where they exist. That is where both groups meet.

I'm not saying the meeting is symbolic. I'm saying the clouds are symbolic. The clouds symbolize God's glory, and that's where we meet. Those who are resurrected first, are resurrected into God's glory. Those who are resurrected last then also enter into God's glory. So in that sense we meet them. Why are you so resistant to a symbolic interpretation?

 

[PinSeeker]

Paul gave us that "weak assertion". Paul claimed he would be alive at the Second Coming.

Paul talked about the 2024 U.S. Presidential election? Or that Donald John Trump would be alive at the Second Coming? Oh, um, no, 'he' being Paul. Well, either way...

...so no... :)

Was Paul being foolish or hopeful?

He did say that for him, personally (and for all of us by extension), to live is Christ, but to die would be is gain, so, while not a death wish of any sort, definitely a reason for confidence and hope in the Lord...

Wow.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Freedm]

He was speaking of the second death which is death of body, soul and spirit.

He was not speaking of death of the mortal human body because everyone has died since he spoke those words including himself. You are just misunderstanding what he said.

How is it you can deny the resurrection of the dead despite it being written about so many times in scripture?

I'm not denying the resurrection of the dead. How can you claim that I'm denying the resurrection of the dead, when I'm literally telling you that it's already happened? Are you not reading my words? Why would you accuse me of denying the resurrection?

 

[Freedm]

He was speaking of the second death which is death of body, soul and spirit.

He was not speaking of death of the mortal human body because everyone has died since he spoke those words including himself. You are just misunderstanding what he said.

How is it you can deny the resurrection of the dead despite it being written about so many times in scripture?

Let me ask you something. Are you a physical body, or a spirit, or a soul? Or do you think you are a combination of all three? And if you're a combination of all three, when your body dies, where is your consciousness? In your spirit? Or in your soul? And do your spirit and soul stay together? Or do they separate? And what is the difference between your spirit and soul?

Now, as you ponder these questions, ask yourself if you've really thought this through. I'll give you a hint; you haven't.

 

[Freedm]

He was speaking of the second death which is death of body, soul and spirit.

He was not speaking of death of the mortal human body because everyone has died since he spoke those words including himself. You are just misunderstanding what he said.

How is it you can deny the resurrection of the dead despite it being written about so many times in scripture?

Everyone has died? Then why is it that people who die on the operating table, can witness their own bodies as they float above and they can hear the doctors speaking. That doesn't sound like death to me. That sounds like moving from one life, into the next.

 

[Freedm]

He was speaking of the second death which is death of body, soul and spirit.

He was not speaking of death of the mortal human body because everyone has died since he spoke those words including himself. You are just misunderstanding what he said.

I get why you see it that way. I used to see it that way too. But you have to think about what death actually is. If you see death as, the body dying, but your spirit living on, then that's not death at all. If your spirit is still conscious and alive, then how can you say that you are dead?

Let's look at how the Bible describes death:

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

The dead know nothing, but I bet you believe that when you "die" you live on in conscious spirit form. Am I right? Think about whether your definition of death matches up with the Biblical definition of death. It doesn't. You're on the wrong track. Until you understand what death actually is, you can never understand what eternal life is.

 

[The Light]

Except you quote scripture speaking of those who do not watch and therefore are surprised by the return of Christ. Those aren't the ones who shall be raptured. In otherwords, you are posting scripture that proves your belief wrong.

Revelation 3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

And does that leave you unable to determine the fate of those that do watch?

Only the Father knows.

Which is why we are to watch.

 

[The Light]

I get it. You're looking forward to the rapture. My mother is also a member of the church of Hal Lindsay and she's been telling me about raptures and anti-christs and asteroids and lunar eclipses and blood moons since I was a child, and nothing ever comes from it. At a certain point you have to ask yourself why that is.

I get it. Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

I think none of them knew about Ezekiel 4 or the asteroid coming in 2029 and a host of the other things that we can know now.

One thing they did know.......they were watching as instructed. And on a positive note, many were prepared that would not have been if they didn't think His coming happened earlier.

 

[Timtofly]

I'll answer this... :) So I think this is what's in question:

"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." (1 Thessalonians 4:17)​

What Paul is saying here, Timtofly, is that yes, those who are alive, who are left (at the time of Christ's return) will literally go out to meet the Lord (in the manner of, as I have said previously, loyal subjects going out to meet royalty, the King, in the return to his kingdom after being away for some reason, usually in battle) in the air. That is very real and tangible, and not merely symbolic. But the "in the clouds" part is symbolic ~ we will be joining Him in His final return, "caught up" with Him in His descent to earth in judgment, the final Judgment that He will execute upon His return. This is what is meant by the prepositional phrase "in the clouds." It is not about literal clouds. "In the air" is literal. Those who are alive will join Him... and all the saints who have physically died and joined Him in spirit in heaven coming with Him, but "in the clouds" is meant in the sense that He is coming in final judgment, to execute the final Judgment, which is what previous references to clouds ~ especially in the Old Testament, especially Ezekiel, like here in Ezekiel 30:3..."For the day is near, the day of the LORD is near; it will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations" ~ are, to God's coming and sitting in judgment.

Not sure if Freedm agrees with me here, buuuuut... this is the clarification. :)

Grace and peace to you.

We are not coming to the earth. We are headed to Paradise to be with the Lord. Those in Paradise meet us in the literal clouds and do a U turn back to Paradise.


Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives by Himself in judgment. But Judgment is on the throne in a Temple in Jerusalem. Not on the clouds.

The church is not being judged in the clouds. Neither those on the earth, even though everything is burned up, and the mountains and continents are moved out of their places. That is just the baptism of fire at the Second Coming.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Revelation 3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

And does that leave you unable to determine the fate of those that do watch?


Which is why we are to watch.

But not to project or guess. Nor afford ourselves agents of false prophecy, that his return shall be in or on, any given time.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not denying the resurrection of the dead. How can you claim that I'm denying the resurrection of the dead, when I'm literally telling you that it's already happened?

"If we will never experience death, as Jesus told us, then how can we be resurrected from it?"

You proposed the question about never dying so no resurrection being possible. You also have spoken as if the resurrection is past. Both are false doctrines.

 

[ewq1938]

Everyone has died? Then why is it that people who die on the operating table, can witness their own bodies as they float above and they can hear the doctors speaking. That doesn't sound like death to me. That sounds like moving from one life, into the next.

You apparently don't understand that death is known as the first death, death of the body only. It's the second death which is death of body, soul and spirit.

 

[ewq1938]

The dead know nothing, but I bet you believe that when you "die" you live on in conscious spirit form. Am I right?

You are wrong about death. You just contradicted yourself when you spoke of someone dying and seeing their selves and declaring death didn't happen. lol. You don't plan your responses out very well.

It says the dead know nothing because that is speaking of the dead bodies not the soul that lives on.

Think about whether your definition of death matches up with the Biblical definition of death. It doesn't. You're on the wrong track. Until you understand what death actually is, you can never understand what eternal life is.

It is you that doesn't understand what death is. You spoke of the first death and declared death didn't even happen.

Let's review your wisdom on death:

"Then why is it that people who die on the operating table, can witness their own bodies as they float above and they can hear the doctors speaking. That doesn't sound like death to me."

That's because you don't understand death. Compare your statement to your other statement:

"The dead know nothing, but I bet you believe that when you "die" you live on in conscious spirit form. Am I right?"

Which is it? Can someone die and does something live on in conscious spirit form to witness their own bodies on the operating table or not? Which is it?

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

And does that leave you unable to determine the fate of those that do watch?

You are changing the subject. You quote the above verse because it says "thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." and you apply that to the rapture, that it can happen at an unknown and sudden time but it is NOT speaking of the rapture. It's speaking of people unworthy of being raptured because they are not watching so Christ will come to them unexpectedly not to rapture but it will be in wrath.

Compare that to this:

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

You misuse scripture because you don't understand it well enough.

 

[Timtofly]

Not sure if Freedm agrees with me here, buuuuut... this is the clarification.

He claims it happened in 70AD. Merely on the point it was symbolic. We are post the Second Coming, according to Him. We are in the NHNE of Revelation 21 if we are post Second Coming. Would you agree that the GWT judgment already happened?

 

[Timtofly]

That's what most people who need help say. :)

Really, we all need help... the help of the Holy Spirit, our Helper, and those who have been given by the Spirit spiritual gifts, including (but certainly not limited to) prophecy, teaching, and wisdom.

I was not saying I did not need help.

It was a reply to this quote:

Yours does not, which is why you need 2 Peter 3:8 to help you out.

I don't need that help he was alleging.

 

[PinSeeker]

We are not coming to the earth. We are headed to Paradise to be with the Lord. Those in Paradise meet us in the literal clouds and do a U turn back to Paradise.

Rubbish.

Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives by Himself in judgment.

Well, He alone will execute the final Judgment, yes. Where exactly that will be we don't know, but really matters not; it will be what it will be.

But Judgment is on the throne in a Temple in Jerusalem.

We don't know that. But again, it matters not, really; it will be what it will be. All will be judged according to what they have done.

Not on the clouds. The church is not being judged in the clouds.

Nobody insinuated that. Do you just misunderstand what people say all the time? Or do you just disregard everything they have said and just make stuff up? I mean, give it a try, Timmy. Here, I'll say it again, and we'll see if you can actually respond in an at least somewhat coherent way this time:

"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

What Paul is saying here, Timtofly, is that yes, those who are alive, who are left (at the time of Christ's return) will literally go out to meet the Lord (in the manner of, as I have said previously, loyal subjects going out to meet royalty, the King, in the return to his kingdom after being away for some reason, usually in battle) in the air. That is very real and tangible, and not merely symbolic. But the "in the clouds" part is symbolic ~ we will be joining Him in His final return, "caught up" with Him in His descent to earth in judgment, the final Judgment that He will execute upon His return. This is what is meant by the prepositional phrase "in the clouds." It is not about literal clouds. "In the air" is literal. Those who are alive will join Him... and all the saints who have physically died and joined Him in spirit in heaven coming with Him, but "in the clouds" is meant in the sense that He is coming in final judgment, to execute the final Judgment, which is what previous references to clouds ~ especially in the Old Testament, especially Ezekiel, like here in Ezekiel 30:3..."For the day is near, the day of the LORD is near; it will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations" ~ are, to God's coming and sitting in judgment.

Neither those on the earth, even though everything is burned up, and the mountains and continents are moved out of their places.

Nobody insinuated that, that I know of. Nothing is actually burned up, and nothing is moved out of it's place.

That is just the baptism of fire at the Second Coming.

At the time of Christ's second coming, all of God's elect will have been baptized by the Holy Spirit and fire (Matthew 3:11). This is our conversion experience. God's Israel will be complete; all of His Gentile elect will have been brought in, and the partial hardening now on Israel removed, and in this way, all of Israel saved. The completion of God's Israel is what prompts Jesus's return.

He claims it happened in 70AD. Merely on the point it was symbolic. We are post the Second Coming, according to Him. We are in the NHNE of Revelation 21 if we are post Second Coming.

If he does, then he's wrong. :)

Would you agree that the GWT judgment already happened?

No.

I was not saying I did not need help.

Great! :)

Grace and peace to you.