We are judged by works, not by faith

[dad]

I've waited so long for you to say that "works" has no relation nor connection with man's works! Good works come directly from God.

False I said nothing to do with what Jesus paid for, our salvation.

Indeed, the works that God has in view is the RESULT OF BECOMING SAVED! For no natural man has the capacity to understand the things of God.

Good insight.

To God Be The Glory

Yes we are to abide in the Vine to bear fruit. Works don't keep us saved either. They show we are saved, or should. If they don't, no worries, He will chastise you and get you on the right track

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You stated that "atheist cannot produce works". And you have said that "People can do good things...". Which is it?

I think there is some nuance to your beliefs....

Mary

when I said atheists cannot produce good works, I was stating that they cannot produce good works acceptable from divine perspective. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Until one is born again, they are dead in their trespasses and sins (Eph 2).
Also they are enemies of God( Romans 5)

Even a believer can do a "good work" but it not count at all in heaven.

Hypothetical example: Man goes on the mission field and over the course of decades leads 10,000s to Christ. However if Gods plan for HIm was to stay in their home country, marry and raise a godly family and be a faithful member in his church, all those souls (while a wonderful thing) will not go to his account because he was not obeying God.

When we get saved God has a plan for our lives that was foreordained__

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Ghada]

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness (which produced the divine result) was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.

What I have noticed in the past with anyone talking about noticing something closely, or take a closer look at something that is otherwise plainly written in the Bible, then it always preludes changing it into something no one reading the words would ever think.

Some Christians want to make the first principles of the doctrine of Christ, and the simplicity of the gospel, into some sort of code-book only to be understood by the initiates into the hidden mystery of plain words. That is not the hidden mystery of the spirit of Christ within us, that only them obeying Christ can know and understand. Making mysteries out of simple teachings is what the gnostic types love to do.

It's always a close enough look at the Bible, to read the words and take God at His words.

A simple look at the James 2 says no man is saved nor justified by any faith, that has no good works with it.

If someone wants to then finesses that into some secret mystery about the difference between, justification, making righteous, accounting as righteous, etc... then that's just more word play to take away the plain meaning in James 2.

1 Tim 6:4 calls it strifes about words to bring in change and confusion to the Bible.

 

[Ghada]

No, you are the one calling what Jesus spoke about (how believers need forgiving and trespass) being 'unrighteous'

False accusation. Admitting Jesus spoke the truth and that believers do need chastising, correction and forgiveness is not 'despising the good'! But those pretending they are sinless saints who are perfect do seem to despise other believers (that Jesus died for)

Since hating your brother is the same as murder, those looking down their noose at other believers seem to qualify for that.

You cease to do truth when you declare yourself without any sin or fault or anything that could need correction from God. Tell us, If Jesus chastises us for our own good, how would you learn anything or have Him lead you from mistakes if you were already perfect. That means you can never learn or grow.

Right, in other words it is a matter of a big lie and sham and absolute unbiblical pretense.

You deny that He chastises every single son He receives apparently. How would He chastise perfect little you? How would you ever need forgiveness from anyone? You throw the phrase 'doing truth' out as if you do some unspoken and unutterable great works that show you are perfect.

Nothing new. Just going in circles.

 

[Ghada]

People who are unforgiving and demand some knee scraping apology from everyone for the tiniest of (perceived) sins take it out of context.

This is what the proud such as yourself respond to Jesus' command, that we make things right with God and others from the heart. Such humbleness is too humiliating for you, so you mock it as something else entirely. It's you common MO.

In another place we are told it is not wise to go to the law with brethren.

Another purposely misplace verse of the Bible, to justify being too proud to make it right with God and others from the heart.

Let's get this straight. You claim that every brother that Jesus spoke about that trespasses is not saved?

Yes. That is Bible teaching. Just as every son that forsakes the Father for riotous living, is not a living son to the Father, but dead.

You inserted the part that defines the double minded as meaning they do not 'do the word'. Whatever that is supposed to mean. Do brothers trespassing against you seven times a day 'do the word'?

When they repent and confess to be forgiven from the heart by God and man.

Your gospel of being judged as doing the word by faith alone, while sinning against God and man, is not that of Jesus Christ in the Bible.

Double minded does not mean that one has great works at times and none at other times.

True. Since it's not possible to have no works at any time in this life. Romans 7 is as it says: those who do good at times and evil at times. Their heart is not single with God, and so their life is never full of light in the fellowship and walk with Jesus, unless double mindedness is repented of.

It means that a person is not rooted and stablished in the faith.

And if we die that way while sinning, then we sin unto death and die in our sinning.

That could even refer to the unsaved.

True. Such believers are not saved while doing the sin, rather than the good.

People sometimes think there is a God and other times doubt it etc.

Yes, this includes unbelievers and believers alike. To the double hearted believers, their trial of faith is only wondering if there really is a God in heaven or not. Those times are when they they separate themselves from Him while sinning against Him. Instead of acknowledging the truth, that have separated themselves from the faith of Jesus, just just wonder why they feel like it they have.

Paul admitted he was wretched.

As a double minded Christian in Roman 7. Not as one delivered from double heartedness in Romans 8.

Your gospel of being a wretched double hearted Christian for life, is not that of them abiding in Christ. Neither is your Paul the apostle Paul of Romans 8.

Peter demonstrated it. Yet they were forgiven and saved and learning.

Learning what? How to sin and be justified by Christ as you do? That is not learning to do the truth of God, but only learning another gospel of how to justify oneself, while not doing the truth of God.

That is the learning you have perfected for yourself, that I never even for one moment thought to learn. That is why neither I nor Paul nor Peter remain double hearted for life as you.

 

[Ghada]

Conversion is perfect. That INCLUDES the work He does after in us that includes chastening in EVERY case. Why not your case??

Your conversion is not perfect.

Now you can answer plainly: have you ever been made completely new and pure, with all things now being of God, and nothing of the devil remaining in your heart and life? Has this ever been the case for you?

I see. So at some point that was not written about in Scripture, Peter and Paul suddenly became saved and perfect?!

Exactly. It's called the perfect newborn conversion of Jesus Christ, that you do not believe is possible in this life, but only after the grave.

And so once again: have you ever been made completely new and pure, with all things now being of God, and nothing of the devil remaining in your heart and life?

Yes I do! I don't believe in your self declared perfection and holiness!

This is well established, that you believe in another gospel than the Bible:

As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Jesus is holy. He is in us so we are holy too. Not perfect yet,

I.e. not really holy yet. Just more holy and less sinful than before. Your gospel of suggestions from God to try and be holy as He, is not that of the Bible.

It also shows you do not believe in the pure and holy conversion of Jesus Christ.

Once again, Have you ever been made new and holy and blameless with the Lord at any time in your life?

but He is working on us. Pruning, chastening, guiding, teaching etc.

You are working on yourself in your own Christian conversion to try and sin less while thinking yourself to be holy within alone. You don believe in ever being holy and ceasing from sinning.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

A simple look at the James 2 says no man is saved nor justified by any faith, that has no good works with it.

And Paul says plainly we are justified by faith. I take Pauls camp.

 

[Ghada]

Accepting salvation does not mean we are in heaven as soon as we ask. Nor does it mean our body is changed into an incorruptible one yet.

And so, you confirm you do not believe in being born again in Christ with all things now of God. You teach only being made completely new and of God until after the grave.

Neither does it mean (as Jesus repeated often) that we will never trespass against others.

Right after telling her to go and sin no more?

Look at the Lord's prayer. Forgive US OUR sins as we forgive those that sin against us'!

This is not a commandment to sin, nor an assurance of sinning and being in need of forgiveness.

Your gospel of when you sin, is not the gospel of if we sin.

Yes I do. Your works after being saved determine your eternal reward (not your salvation)

Eternal salvation is the reward of inheritance by obeying Jesus in the end.

Your reward of being saved by your own beliefs alone, ends in the grave. God will then judge every man's works, whether we doctrinally allow it or not.

Jesus said we both trespass! We are not blamed for that. We learn and grow from that.

Once again this is the gospel of preaching an unjust Judge and God, who does not blame His 'family' when doing the same things He blames others for doing.

I completely disassociate myself from your Christian doctrine of being justified, while doing the same as others that are condemned.

I despised it as hypocrisy of the worst sort before being born again of God, and despise it even more now. This is why I show how some Christians preach and teach and trust in things that are not the Bible.

Don't confuse the evil of the unsaved wicked with the sins of the saved.

I completely disassociate myself from your Christian doctrine of being justified, while doing the same as others that are condemned.

I despised it as hypocrisy of the worst sort before being born again of God, and despise it even more now. This is why I show how some Christians preach and teach and trust in things that are not the Bible.

Brothers are not evil for trespassing against you, they are human! Saved humeans being worked on by God.

I completely disassociate myself from your Christian doctrine of being justified, while doing the same as others that are condemned.

I despised it as hypocrisy of the worst sort before being born again of God, and despise it even more now. This is why I show how some Christians preach and teach and trust in things that are not the Bible.

He judges us on works. The saved are judged/rewarded for what they did. The wicked are punished for what they did.

I completely disassociate myself from your Christian doctrine of being justified, while doing the same as others that are condemned.

I despised it as hypocrisy of the worst sort before being born again of God, and despise it even more now. This is why I show how some Christians preach and teach and trust in things that are not the Bible.

The saved are judged not condemned by their works. What God looks at is whether we have receive Jesus or not. If not then you must stand to account for your sins alone. If we have Jesus, then He already paid for our salvation and that is not by any works which we have done but according to His mercy.

I completely disassociate myself from your Christian doctrine of being justified, while doing the same as others that are condemned.

I despised it as hypocrisy of the worst sort before being born again of God, and despise it even more now. This is why I show how some Christians preach and teach and trust in things that are not the Bible.

 

[Ghada]

Do you claim that all believers who He chastises and who ever trespass are 'sinning with Jesus' and children of the devil? Answer clearly.

Of course. While sinning with the devil, we are children of the devil. While doing the will of God, we are sons of God.

Now, you answer clearly. Have you ever been made completely new and of God in soul and life, with nothing of the devil as before?

As do all believers one would hope for things they did wrong. You have suggested that Peter was not even saved, but only later somehow was born again.

No man is not even saved while sinning with the devil. We can only be born again afterward by repenting with godly sorrow and obeying the gospel with Jesus.

There is a big difference. Once we are saved/born again He is in us helping us be better.

Helping us to remain pure and right with God as newborn babes of God.

Your gospel of trying to be better at sinning less and less, is the Christian progressive religion of secular humanism.

That old man needs to be put down more than once.

If you go back to the old man to live again. However, since you do not ever believe in putting the old man down all at once, then all you are doing is trying to be both the new and old man at the same time.

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Before getting saved we served sin. Now, even if we trespass, it should be the exception and not part of living in sin.

I.e. in your gospel, there is never any henceforth of not serving sin. Your lukewarm gospel of henceforth still serving sin, but only less so, is tiresome and definitely worthy only of being spued out.

Here is the gospel of Christians salvation while sinning against Christ:

Knowing this, that our old man is almost crucified with him, that the body of sin might be nearly destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin, but we still do.

OK, OK. Most sadly we still do.

 

[Ghada]

. They no longer are given over to sin,

I.e. not really committed to sinning, while sinning. Like your half hearted faith in Christ, you are only half heartedly sinning.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.


16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.


17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.


20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.


22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:


23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Get it?

Yes, Paul knew his wretchedness as a double minded Christian, as I have. and so we both sought deliverance from it.

Your gospel accommodates double mindedness and teach it for life.

No. I do not enjoy sin much anymore BECAUSE I am saved. Because I am a son. Not 'because I don't enjoy it as much'!

And yet you are still a disobedient son from time to time.

Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Your gospel is always one of ought to, but never one of doing it.

No believer is judged to hell.

Not if we repent before the grave.

We believe we are corrected and dealt with by God for our own good.

In order to repent before the grave.

Psalms 103:10
He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

After repenting before the grave. Not while doing so.

Your gospel of being already forgiven while sinning with the devil, is a perversion of the mercy of God in the Bible.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

 

[Ghada]

No. I realize that what I do is not yet always perfect, but He is working on us still.

And so, you acknowledge you are always sinful and sinning with filthy works of of your own righteousness. You confess nothing you do is ever judged by the Father as being worthy of His Son, so that He never sees His Son in your deeds.

This is the result of the imperfect conversion of Christian religion alone, where the believer is never pure and clean and blameless in the sight of God.

False. By the heart we believe and are saved.

A fine example of the serpent's subtilty to change the Bible into a different doctrine of man.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Not only do you openly teach never doing the righteousness of God without sinning, you can't even quote the Bible saying it.

He answers the heartcry of people. That does not mean instant perfection.

More confession of not believing in the whole and pure conversion of Jesus Christ with all thing now being of God.

False it is full repentance resulting in full salvation. Even then there will still be some stuff that needs being sorry for.

Once again, always the qualifier of how full repentance does not include all sinning.

The main battle of eternal salvation, though is over. Never to be revisited.

Only in your gospel of salvation, while sinning unto death.

In the Bible gospel, the reward of enteral salvation is only for obeying the Lord in the end.

No. The saved people are righteous. Thy are not righteous or saved because of works or 'not liking sin' so much!

True, Only those doing God's righteousness from the faith and love of Jesus in heart, are the righteous as He is righteous.

Those not doing His righteous are the unrighteous, that shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now I consider that a serious sin, and not something saved people would be involved with. If, however some did sin in that area as saved Christians, God would be all over them and on their case as the good Parent He is.

Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Your precept of condemning sinning, while still being justified while sinning, is ot the commandment and doctrine of Christ in the Bible.

As Paul mentioned, some guy had to be killed so that his spirit would live.

Mai Lai of God.

If you start talking about serious hopefully rare sins of believers, well, they won't get away with it.

Ooh, very stern.

In your gospel every believer doing sin, gets away with it. Afterall, we all end up in heaven anyway, so what's the big deal.

Ah, so you then, being perfect have never given in and had that candy bar or anything else. Of course. That would make you a child of the devil in your world of perfection.

Once again, you speak of sinning yourself, and yet you never mention any sinning condemned by God.

What kind of hypocrisy is this? You preach never ceasing to sin in this life, and yet never speak of doing anything that is sinning against God? Go ahead. You speak so often of your filthy rags. Confess what you do, that God says is sin.

So Paul struggling with that and not doing good as he wanted to and doing bad as he did not want to at times means he never took up his cross?

Not at the time.

By the way, brethren who trespass at times are not living a life of sin!

I.e. uncommitted to sinning, while sinning. Committed to sinning is only with how many times?

Now tell us your gospel standard of just how much sinning it takes to be committed to sinning.

It's your gospel, so feel free where to draw the line for yourself.

 

[dad]

This is what the proud such as yourself respond to Jesus' command, that we make things right with God and others from the heart. Such humbleness is too humiliating for you, so you mock it as something else entirely. It's you common MO.

There is a time for genuine apologies. There is also a time for forgivness of the sort Jesus demonstrated and commanded.

Yes. That is Bible teaching. Just as every son that forsakes the Father for riotous living, is not a living son to the Father, but dead.

Doesn't matter when we never die. Soon as he came to his senses and learned his lessons he was alive again!

Your gospel of being judged as doing the word by faith alone, while sinning against God and man, is not that of Jesus Christ in the Bible.

False. He judges us on works but saves us by grace. You seem to want to add some works in there so you think you deserve it.

True. Since it's not possible to have no works at any time in this life.

It is possible to have none you would see or maybe like.

Romans 7 is as it says: those who do good at times and evil at times. Their heart is not single with God, and so their life is never full of light in the fellowship and walk with Jesus, unless double mindedness is repented of.

Looking at Rom 7 we see this

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 7:15
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Romans 7:16
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Paul's heart was fine, thank you very much.

And if we die that way while sinning, then we sin unto death and die in our sinning.

And he still saves our soul as the bible says. Even if your works are burned. Even if you have to be delivered to Satan to die.

True. Such believers are not saved while doing the sin, rather than the good.

If they are saved they are saved. Your pretend perfection does not keep you saved.

As a double minded Christian in Roman 7. Not as one delivered from double heartedness in Romans 8.

Nothing to do with being saved. If someone doubts God can help them.

Your gospel of being a wretched double hearted Christian for life, is not that of them abiding in Christ. Neither is your Paul the apostle Paul of Romans 8.

Already covered how Paul said he was wretched.

Learning what? How to sin and be justified by Christ as you do? That is not learning to do the truth of God, but only learning another gospel of how to justify oneself, while not doing the truth of God.

Being perfect as you think you are....learning NOTHING. How can one improve on perfection? How can He chasten you? All that remains is to cast rose pedals before your feet I guess.

That is the learning you have perfected for yourself, that I never even for one moment thought to learn. That is why neither I nor Paul nor Peter remain double hearted for life as you.

Missing the heart of the gospel means you don't understand it.

 

[mailmandan]

What I have noticed in the past with anyone talking about noticing something closely, or take a closer look at something that is otherwise plainly written in the Bible, then it always preludes changing it into something no one reading the words would ever think.

In context, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) That is plainly written. By not noticing this more closely and failing to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine, your eisegesis culminates in salvation by works/works righteousness which is contrary to the gospel. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 4:2-6; 11:6)

Some Christians want to make the first principles of the doctrine of Christ, and the simplicity of the gospel, into some sort of code-book only to be understood by the initiates into the hidden mystery of plain words. That is not the hidden mystery of the spirit of Christ within us, that only them obeying Christ can know and understand. Making mysteries out of simple teachings is what the gnostic types love to do.

It's actually "nominal" Christians who complicate the simplicity of the gospel by "adding" works to it making it a false gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4) The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

It's always a close enough look at the Bible, to read the words and take God at His words.

1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

A simple look at the James 2 says no man is saved nor justified by any faith, that has no good works with it.

Salvation by faith and works is not what James 2 says. That's your eisegesis. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works in contradiction with Paul (Romans 4:2-6). His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

If someone wants to then finesses that into some secret mystery about the difference between, justification, making righteous, accounting as righteous, etc... then that's just more word play to take away the plain meaning in James 2.

Understanding the difference between "accounted as righteous" by faith apart from works (Romans 4:2-6) and shown to be righteous by works (James 2:21, 24) doesn't take finesse or unlocking secret mystery skills. It simply takes spiritual discernment.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344. Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Strongs's #1344: dikaioo - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools

You error by painting the word "justified" with a broad brushed definition of "render righteous/account as righteous" then you erroneously interpret James 2:24 to mean justified/accounted as righteous/saved by works in contradiction with the rest of scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

1 Tim 6:4 calls it strifes about words to bring in change and confusion to the Bible.

So far, you have proven yourself to be the master of causing strife on this board. Not sure who you think you are fooling.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is not a commandment to sin, nor an assurance of sinning and being in need of forgiveness.

Your gospel of when you sin, is not the gospel of if we sin.

YOu are correct. Because the Holy spirit lives inside of us we no longer "HAVE" to sin. but we do and as John wrote:

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Matthew 18:21-22

King James Version

​

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Do you really think that Jesus would demand us to forgive constantly if our Father in heaven first does it?

 

[dad]

And so, you confirm you do not believe in being born again in Christ with all things now of God. You teach only being made completely new and of God until after the grave.


Right after telling her to go and sin no more?


This is not a commandment to sin, nor an assurance of sinning and being in need of forgiveness.

Your gospel of when you sin, is not the gospel of if we sin.


Eternal salvation is the reward of inheritance by obeying Jesus in the end.

Your reward of being saved by your own beliefs alone, ends in the grave. God will then judge every man's works, whether we doctrinally allow it or not.

Once again this is the gospel of preaching an unjust Judge and God, who does not blame His 'family' when doing the same things He blames others for doing.

I completely disassociate myself from your Christian doctrine of being justified, while doing the same as others that are condemned.

I despised it as hypocrisy of the worst sort before being born again of God, and despise it even more now. This is why I show how some Christians preach and teach and trust in things that are not the Bible.




I completely disassociate myself from your Christian doctrine of being justified, while doing the same as others that are condemned.

I despised it as hypocrisy of the worst sort before being born again of God, and despise it even more now. This is why I show how some Christians preach and teach and trust in things that are not the Bible.




I completely disassociate myself from your Christian doctrine of being justified, while doing the same as others that are condemned.

I despised it as hypocrisy of the worst sort before being born again of God, and despise it even more now.

Realizing we are still on the planet for awhile should not be characterized as despising salvation or being hypocritical. Pretending otherwise is foolish.

I despised it as hypocrisy of the worst sort before being born again of God, and despise it even more now. This is why I show how some Christians preach and teach and trust in things that are not the Bible.

Paul did what he didn't want to do and disliked it. Get in line. Pretending you are perfect is not the answer.

I completely disassociate myself from your Christian doctrine of being justified, while doing the same as others that are condemned.

Judgment begins at the house of God, and He chastises every son He receives. That means they are being made perfect not that they already are.

 

[dad]

Of course. While sinning with the devil, we are children of the devil. While doing the will of God, we are sons of God.

OK lurkers here it is. The guy just claimed that any believer that trespasses is a child of the devil!

Now, you answer clearly. Have you ever been made completely new and of God in soul and life, with nothing of the devil as before?

Being born of the spirit does not mean the sinless nirvana instant perfection you imagine. As explained many times it means God is in us and working on us.

No man is not even saved while sinning with the devil. We can only be born again afterward by repenting with godly sorrow and obeying the gospel with Jesus.

To be saved we repent. Then we are saved. After that brothers still fall, and have trespasses at times. He chastise all His sons (except perfect you, apparently?) Since He chastises Every son He receives, where does that leave you?

If you go back to the old man to live again. However, since you do not ever believe in putting the old man down all at once, then all you are doing is trying to be both the new and old man at the same time.

Like whack a mole, we need to keep on whacking anything that is not of God. He helps us do that.

I.e. in your gospel, there is never any henceforth of not serving sin.

Learn the difference between being a servant of sin, and being a son of God that requires correction. Your pretense of perfection is not sweet smelling.

 

[dad]

Not if we repent before the grave.

Being saved is the gift of God. Not of works. You cannot keep yourself saved any more than you can save yourself.

 

[dad]

And so, you acknowledge you are always sinful and sinning with filthy works of of your own righteousness.

No. Brothers that trespass are not evil.

You confess nothing you do is ever judged by the Father as being worthy of His Son, so that He never sees His Son in your deeds.

Yes His son helps us do all the good works we do. Who could miss that, besides you?

Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

That is about people refusing to accept Him. (be saved)

Your precept of condemning sinning, while still being justified while sinning, is ot the commandment and doctrine of Christ in the Bible.

Your precept of pretending you never sin in any way is a joke.

In your gospel every believer doing sin, gets away with it. Afterall, we all end up in heaven anyway, so what's the big deal.

It was explained that Jesus chastises and deals with us. That is not getting away with anything. Be honest.
Your mr perfect act is a bad act.

 

[Ghada]

And Paul says plainly we are justified by faith. I take Pauls camp.

Yes, until you begin to judge believers by their works, when you think they are just a bit wee too much for your liking.

There are those that do preach a consistent gospel of being saved and justified, without any works ever having anything to do with it at all. I can at least respect the integrity of it.

But then there are the pretenders, that say workless justification only goes so far, which is when our justification can be judged by our works.

I just preach we are judged and justified by our works period, like James 2. That would be at any given time in my book. I just dispense with all the personal lines of sinning we may draw for ourselves, and then judge others by that.

Does you church have a sin committee? What line is drawn on sinning, when our Christianity must be judged by our works? Such as the amount of sin in general? The type of sin? Frequency? Public Exposure? It should be an interesting case of grand judgement by great committee rule.

Are they like the earthly version of the 12 elders around the throne?

 

[Ghada]

Doesn't matter when we never die. Soon as he came to his senses and learned his lessons he was alive again!

Saved senseless. That's a new one. I like it. The gospel of the sensible and the senseless. Has that nice double hearted ring to it.

I understand your gospel. I also read the Bible. I take God's words much more seriously than your senses.

False. He judges us on works but saves us by grace.

If you call this sense, I don't see it. But hey, it's your gospel.

Although, I can see how you are trying to have at least some integrity in life. But since you will never let your works get anywhere near your salvation, then it's pretty much just lip service.

You seem to want to add some works in there so you think you deserve it.

No, no, no. I have never been wishy washy with you. I don't 'seem' anything in my teaching. I say it exactly as it is like Paul with great plainness of speech.

In my gospel I certainly do preach adding to my faith to ensure I am saved in the end, so that I also may obtain the reward of the righteous saints and eternal salvation.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


Me and Peter are pals on this one. Your exclusion from it is no biggy to me. I never was one for trying to get everybody to be my friend.

It is possible to have none you would see or maybe like.

Isn't that what I said? Anyway.

Looking at Rom 7 we see this

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 7:15
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Romans 7:16
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Paul's heart was fine, thank you very much.

Pauls' heart was wretched.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

But, you're heart is fine. Both of them. No thank you.

Even if your works are burned. Even if you have to be delivered to Satan to die.

Man, you do preach a killer gospel don't you? Whew. "Lord! Kill that brother now! Quick! Before he makes us all look bad! Man, some brothers just don't know when to quit! I've tried telling him time and time again. Luke brother dude, you need to at least try and pick and choose when and where!"

If they are saved they are saved.

Poignant.

Your pretend perfection does not keep you saved.

Has so far. And guess what, I keep myself even closer and closer to Jesus side as we walk and talk together, especially as the end draws near.

We know that whosoever is born of God is not sinning; but he that is begotten of God is keeping himself, and that wicked one is not touching him.

Me and John are good pals too. Man, I love those guys. You however have a serious problem with them. No matter, they're in the presence of the Lord now. So, I'll take your slings and arrows of discontent.

Already covered how Paul said he was wretched.

But his heart was just fine with that. Wait, that's your gospel lifetime achievement award. Nevermind.

Being perfect as you think you are....learning NOTHING.

Not true at all! I have learned many great things from you.

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."

You haven't offered me a thousand ways how not to yet, but you certainly are batting a thousand in every way you've tried to.

How can one improve on perfection?

I'll go ahead and give the Bible answer, though the question of course is not serious from you.

By beginning perfect in Christ as newborn babes of God, and staying and growing that way.

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

How can He chasten you?

By quoting the Bible? Accurately? Applicably?

Believe me, your gospel only shows yourself.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

All that remains is to cast rose pedals before your feet I guess.

No thanks.

Missing the heart of the gospel means you don't understand it.

You mean double heart. Let's be consistent shall we? If you're going to preach a Christian life of two hearts, then you need to clarify.

Missing the hearts of my gospel means you don't understand it.

Oh, but I do, I do.