Is Universalism Unorthodox

[Jack]

No you are just wanting attention, we been through this before sir.

Im gonna put you back on ignore.

Do you know what the Bible says will happen to "all liars"? I doubt that you even know, so I'll help you.

Revelation 21
8 All liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

 

[Jack]

Good bye Jack.

Love you and hope the best.

The Bible, God's written Word is 'the best'. You should read it some time. It can deliver you from Hell.

Jude 1
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,

 

[Jack]

May God bless you.

He already has. I'm a Bible believer!

 

[Jack]

So the verse below is false? God DOES "cast off" FOREVER???

Lamentations 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off forever.

---

Why do you pick the verses you like and avoid the rest? That verse does not even confirm Universalism.

 

[Jack]

Lamentations 3​

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New International Version​

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3 [a]I am the man who has seen affliction
by the rod of the Lord’s wrath.
2 He has driven me away and made me walk
in darkness rather than light;
3 indeed, he has turned his hand against me
again and again, all day long.
4 He has made my skin and my flesh grow old
and has broken my bones.
5 He has besieged me and surrounded me
with bitterness and hardship.
6 He has made me dwell in darkness
like those long dead.
7 He has walled me in so I cannot escape;
he has weighed me down with chains.
8 Even when I call out or cry for help,
he shuts out my prayer.
9 He has barred my way with blocks of stone;
he has made my paths crooked.
10 Like a bear lying in wait,
like a lion in hiding,
11 he dragged me from the path and mangled me
and left me without help.
12 He drew his bow
and made me the target for his arrows.
13 He pierced my heart
with arrows from his quiver.
14 I became the laughingstock of all my people;
they mock me in song all day long.
15 He has filled me with bitter herbs
and given me gall to drink.
16 He has broken my teeth with gravel;
he has trampled me in the dust.
17 I have been deprived of peace;
I have forgotten what prosperity is.
18 So I say, “My splendor is gone
and all that I had hoped from the Lord.”
19 I remember my affliction and my wandering,
the bitterness and the gall.
20 I well remember them,
and my soul is downcast within me.
21 Yet this I call to mind
and therefore I have hope:
22 Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed,
for his compassions never fail.
23 They are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
24 I say to myself, “The Lord is my portion;
therefore I will wait for him.”
25 The Lord is good to those whose hope is in him,
to the one who seeks him;
26 it is good to wait quietly
for the salvation of the Lord.
27 It is good for a man to bear the yoke
while he is young.
28 Let him sit alone in silence,
for the Lord has laid it on him.
29 Let him bury his face in the dust—
there may yet be hope.
30 Let him offer his cheek to one who would strike him,
and let him be filled with disgrace.
31 For no one is cast off
by the Lord forever.
32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
33 For he does not willingly bring affliction
or grief to anyone.
34 To crush underfoot
all prisoners in the land,
35 to deny people their rights
before the Most High,
36 to deprive them of justice—
would not the Lord see such things?
37 Who can speak and have it happen
if the Lord has not decreed it?
38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that both calamities and good things come?
39 Why should the living complain
when punished for their sins?
40 Let us examine our ways and test them,
and let us return to the Lord.
41 Let us lift up our hearts and our hands
to God in heaven, and say:
42 “We have sinned and rebelled
and you have not forgiven.
43 “You have covered yourself with anger and pursued us;
you have slain without pity.
44 You have covered yourself with a cloud
so that no prayer can get through.
45 You have made us scum and refuse
among the nations.
46 “All our enemies have opened their mouths
wide against us.
47 We have suffered terror and pitfalls,
ruin and destruction.”
48 Streams of tears flow from my eyes
because my people are destroyed.
49 My eyes will flow unceasingly,
without relief,
50 until the Lord looks down
from heaven and sees.
51 What I see brings grief to my soul
because of all the women of my city.
52 Those who were my enemies without cause
hunted me like a bird.
53 They tried to end my life in a pit
and threw stones at me;
54 the waters closed over my head,
and I thought I was about to perish.
55 I called on your name, Lord,
from the depths of the pit.
56 You heard my plea: “Do not close your ears
to my cry for relief.”
57 You came near when I called you,
and you said, “Do not fear.”
58 You, Lord, took up my case;
you redeemed my life.
59 Lord, you have seen the wrong done to me.
Uphold my cause!
60 You have seen the depth of their vengeance,
all their plots against me.
61 Lord, you have heard their insults,
all their plots against me—
62 what my enemies whisper and mutter
against me all day long.
63 Look at them! Sitting or standing,
they mock me in their songs.
64 Pay them back what they deserve, Lord,
for what their hands have done.
65 Put a veil over their hearts,
and may your curse be on them!
66 Pursue them in anger and destroy them
from under the heavens of the Lord.

Universalists like to use VAGUE OT and avoid perfectly clear NT.

Matthew 7
21 Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

 

[Rita]

I believe the discussion was about whether it was orthodox or not , and that Dev did not want a debate on the actual subject. Perhaps consider ‘ What makes something orthodox or unorthodox’
@Patrick1966 , you didn’t like this happening on your thread the other day, yet you have chosen to get into an argument with @Jack on the actual subject here. There are too many posts to delete so I would ask you both to stick to the subject ………

 

[L.A.M.B.]

un·or·tho·dox
adjective
contrary to what is usual, traditional, or accepted;

or·tho·dox
adjective
of a person or their views, especially religious or political ones, or other beliefs or practices, conforming to what is generally or traditionally accepted as right or true; established and approved.

FYI:

 

[Raccoon1010]

I wouldn't characterize it as an "argument". I thought it was discussion.

What happened in my thread and what happened in this thread are not the same.

Besides, dev seemed to indicate in another thread that discussion in this thread was ok with him but I concede that I engaged with Jack after he began discussing the doctrine of universalism.

[IMG alt="dev553344"]https://www.christianityboard.com/data/avatars/m/8/8922.jpg?1690747012[/IMG]

dev553344​

Well-Known Member​

Jul 14, 202012,31114,106113USAFaithChristianCountryUnited States

• Yesterday at 7:38 PM
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• #25

Anything that counters the biblical narrative is unorthodox. Sorry @St. SteVen

I started a thread to discuss if people see Universalism as unorthodox: Is Universalism Unorthodox

@Rita is right. Please stay on topic.

 

[Patrick1966]

Hey @devin

@Rita is right. Please stay on topic.

Yea, sorry for engaging with Jack. I went ahead and put him on "ignore" and I'm going to do the same for you so that I don't repeat this mistake. Goodbye.

 

[Rita]

I wouldn't characterize it as an "argument". I thought it was discussion.

What happened in my thread and what happened in this thread are not the same.

Besides, dev seemed to indicate in another thread that discussion in this thread was ok with him but I concede that I engaged with Jack after he began discussing the doctrine of universalism.

[IMG alt="dev553344"]https://www.christianityboard.com/data/avatars/m/8/8922.jpg?1690747012[/IMG]

dev553344​

Well-Known Member​

Jul 14, 202012,31114,106113USAFaithChristianCountryUnited States

• Yesterday at 7:38 PM
• Add bookmark
• #25

Anything that counters the biblical narrative is unorthodox. Sorry @St. SteVen

I started a thread to discuss if people see Universalism as unorthodox: Is Universalism Unorthodox

Regardless of how you personally view the interaction between you and Jack , the reality is that you and others have not respected the OP or the request within that post.

 

[Rita]

@Patrick1966 .. we were posting at the same time, I see you have addressed it with Dev xx

 

[Raccoon1010]

I did some research and there appears to be a push by Universalists to deny that universalism is unorthodox. This is probably not surprising.

I checked with the orthodox RCC church on their stance of universalism:

Question:​

Is the concept of universal salvation a heresy?

Answer:​

If by “universal salvation” you mean that everyone who ever committed a mortal sin perfectly repents before death and is purified in Purgatory and ultimately arrives in heaven then no, it is not heresy. The Church teaches that all who die in an unrepentant state of mortal sin go to hell for eternity. The Church teaches that hell is real and is eternal but does not teach that any particular person has truly died in a state of unrepentant mortal sin because that is impossible to know.

God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance” (CCC 1037)

If by that phrase you mean that hell is only temporary or that all souls go to heaven regardless of what they did in life and whether they repent then that is indeed heresy. This heresy goes by several names: universal reconciliation, universal salvation, or Christian universalism.
Is the Concept of Universal Salvation a Heresy?

 

[Patrick1966]

@Patrick1966 .. we were posting at the same time, I see you have addressed it with Dev xx

I addressed it by putting him on "ignore" and I will delete all of my comments here. You're welcome.

 

[Patrick1966]

@Patrick1966 .. we were posting at the same time, I see you have addressed it with Dev xx

By the way, did you also warn @St. SteVen and @Jack or only me?

 

[Raccoon1010]

Universal Salvation is given to all people with the victory of Christ Jesus,

They are all saved from Satan, and his angels, death, sin, hell, the false prophet, the beast, the wrath of God (that was poured out on Jerusalem).

What people are not saved to is the Kingdom of Heaven, going into the city, which is always by faith in the death, burial, and resurrection.

It's like people are all a clean slate - and now they make the choice like Adam and Eve in the garden; to eat from the tree of life, eat of the eternal bread and drink the eternal water, or eat from the knowledge of good and evil.

However, Universalism (in a nutshell) - suggest that just everyone makes it to heaven instantly (going on into the kingdom kneeing and bowing before Jesus right away) - even if it is by force, and I don't see God in that way, nor in the narrative in that way either. It also suggest that all the key players of the prior age are also said to go on to be in heaven (the devil, his angels, the false prophet, the beast) otherwise God is unjust and unfair in his judgements.

But Revelation describes a separation from Light and Darkness, and that is something that is founded in the context. (And that everything mentioned prior in the first sentence are done away with.)

Who are we to counsel God, is my question @dev553344?

Romans 11:34 Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”

Stick with the topic of the OP. Whether Universalism is orthodox or not. Does this post address that question?

 

[Raccoon1010]

I did some research on Universalism and found that there are arguments that Universalism was the normal interpretation of the bible in the early church. They also spelled out that there is an association of Universalists that include most of the churches that teach that concept.

They go by the name Unitarian Universalist Association:
Christian universalism - Wikipedia
Unitarian Universalist Association - Wikipedia

Anybody know anything about the above? It didn't list the churches that teach Universalism so it appears to be confusing. I will do some other searches to see which churches teach universalism as that can also answer the orthodox question.

 

[Raccoon1010]

I found a list of people that teach Universalism. It is in the wiki, surprised to find some Catholics in there: List of Christian universalists - Wikipedia

So it would appear that there may be some valid argument to claim universalism is orthodox. Although I still don't see it that way.

 

[MatthewG]

What do you believe Universalism is, @dev553344 ?

I gotta ask.

 

[Raccoon1010]

What do you believe Universalism is, @dev553344 ?

Please see the Wikipedia article on it for a full definition. Christian universalism - Wikipedia

 

[MatthewG]

Please see the Wikipedia article on it for a full definition. Christian universalism - Wikipedia

No devin. I am asking you. I don't care what a wikipedia says. Sorry to be so blunt.

What do you think/believe universalism is?