Seventh-day Adventist

[Wrangler]

Still waiting for you to give ANY evidence Jesus taught the Sabbath day is binding on Christian's in His new testament gospel?

Any evidence is available. Your question reveals a broken acceptance criteria. Here is any evidence:

1. The Messiah was a Jew born under the law and followed it perfectly.
2. The law includes the Sabbath.
3. As a Christian, we are commanded to follow the Messiah.

I trust no Scripture references are needed as the evidence is obvious and undeniable. Confusion might arise on a few points, such as what day to Sabbath and why to Sabbath. But these are easily clarified. In reading the NSRV, I recall the Sabbath being the 1st Command Jesus' God issues after the Fall of Man. (I can find the reference if you like) This struck me as profound.

Why to Sabbath? It's a bit sad to me that a command from God has to be justified in the minds of modern man. Obeying all commands honors God but the Sabbath particularly honors His act of Creation. In addition, it is a command for our benefit, to meet our need to rest and give ourselves the opportunity to deepen our communion with our Creator.

Frankly, that's good enough for me. Questions about works and salvation pale in comparison. True, Sabbath is no longer a salvation issue under the New Covenant. But why wouldn't one enjoy one of God's greatest gifts to us?

 

[Titus]

Replacement Theologians are not.Im not a Sabbatarian.

And I'm not a replacement theology teacher.
Putting false labels on me to discredit sound Bible teaching isn't proving your position.
You bind Sabbath keeping. If you dont like the label Sabbatarian fine. What do you call yourself?
I call myself a New Testament Christian because that is what I am.

Further, Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. This is why Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. Because Jesus is God who gave it,made it, to man.
‘Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

Which men? Gentiles? Give scripture the Sabbath was for ALL.
You show Jesus teaching Sabbath keeping is for gentiles and then you have a point.
Until then, you are just abusing and misusing Mark 2:27.

Mark 2:27, Look at the audience ButterflyJones!!!!!! Jesus is speaking to the wicked Pharisees!
Your verse that you give as "proof" has NO GENTILES BEING SPOKEN TO!!!!

Read Mark 2:23-24 before you read Mark 2:27!

Context matters ButterflyJones! You are ignoring context.
Mark 2:23-24,
- Now it happened that Jesus went through the grain fields on the Sabbath and as they went His disciples began to pluck the heads of grain.
- And the Pharisees said to Jesus Look, why do they do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?

Now just read down to your supposed "proof text"
The context has established Jesus is speaking to Jews! The wicked Pharisees.

Now read Mark 2:27-28,
- And Jesus said to them(Jews, Pharisees) The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath, therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.

Which men ButterflyJones? Wheres the gentiles in Mark 2:27-28? Answer: NONE PRESENT!!!
You ignore what Moses said in Deuteronomy chapter 5.

Deuteronomy 5:14,
- but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God, In it you(jews) shall do no work: you nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger WHO IS WITHIN YOUR GATES, that your male servant and female servant may rest as well as you.

Who has the Lord given the commandment to keep the Sabbath day? Answer JEWISH ISRAELITES!!!!
You ignore context ButterflyJones!

Now did you notice that the stranger among the Jews which means foreigner is also to observe the Sabbath?

Notice what is said specifically about a foreigner.

"Nor your stranger who is  within your gates....

You see the foreigner must be within the land of the Jews for them to observe the Sabbath?

Therefore the foreigner OUTSIDE the Jews land IS NOT BOUND TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

If gentiles are to observe the Sabbath in the old testament in Deuteronomy then why does God say specifically within your gates?

If Sabbath keeping was for ALL men God would not of made this distinction!!!!

Therefore, the onus is on you to show where Jesus, who was God that made that Sabbath for man, changed his mind and revoked the gift. And then declared Sunday as the new Lords day.

Paul made it clear the old Mosaical law has ended, Romans 10:4,
- For Christ is the  end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes(faith).

Therefore you are making the claim we must keep the Sabbath not me.
Therefore you are the one who must give the burden of proof to your claim, not me.

So far you have given no evidence! Which is exactly what I knew you would not be able to accomplish.

Sunday is the day Jesus rose from the dead.
Last day of the week is the day the Jews kept the Sabbath.

The Sabbath was to remember the day of rest from Gods work of creation.
Exodus 20:11,
- for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth... and rested the seventh day

You do not know enough to know Sunday is the day the church in the new testament assembled together to worship God.
So you are wrong to use the Sabbath day, the day of rest as the day the church assembles together to worship God.

Acts 2:42,
- And they(church) continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and in fellowship in the BREAKING OF BREAD(LORDS SUPPER) and in prayers.

Acts 20:7,
- Now on the first day of the week when the disciples CAME TOGETHER(ASSEMBLING, FELLOWSHIP) to BREAKBREAD(LORDS SUPPER) ....


The Last day of the week for the Jews was the Sabbath.
PAY ATTENTION BUTTERFLYJONES!!!! THEY COULD NOT ASSEMBLE. THE JEWS HAD TO STAY IN THEIR HOMES!!!!
Exodus 16:29,
- See for the Lord has given you(jews) the Sabbath therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days,
Let every man remain in his place; let NO MAN GO OUT OF HIS PLACE ON THE SEVENTH.

You are confused ButterflyJones.
Just listen to the Scriptures and you will not be confused any longer.

 

[BarneyFife]

On the other hand, I have begun to see some Christians actually show real growth here. I'd like to think that at least some of that growth happened here.

 

[Wrangler]

You "sabbatarians" are funny!

An invented term.

Im not a Sabbatarian.

I don't know anyone who is.

Further, Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. This is why Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. Because Jesus is God who gave it,made it, to man.
‘Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

Therefore, the onus is on you to show where Jesus, who was God that made that Sabbath for man, changed his mind and revoked the gift. And then declared Sunday as the new Lords day.

Great post @ButterflyJones! I too consider it a great gift.

I hold that Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, interred at dusk, and was resurrected by his God Saturday at dusk BECAUSE it is the only way the math works out. This means Jesus was alive for ~12 hours before Mary saw him Sunday morning, being given the time to process all that happened before interacting with others.

I know people like to suppose Mary missed by seconds the greatest event in human history but there is no evidence in Scripture for this supposition. (I find it peculiar how instead, people invent special ways of counting. There simply is not 3 days from Friday @ dusk to Sunday @ dawn). The whole notion that Sunday is the "Lord's Day" is another invention, denying the Jewish day begins at sunset. Saturday at sunset is the beginning of the Jewish Sunday - not dawn. All these inventions rather that adhere to the millenia old, Scripturally explicit commandment to keep Holy the Sabbath Day.

The Bible is filled with foreshadowing symmetry (such as Adam and new/last Adam) and the symmetry is too close to the completion of Creation for the new Creation to not be symmetrical in this hugely symbolic way.

 

[Wrangler]

I call myself a New Testament Christian because that is what I am.

Isn't the only kind of Christian a New Testament Christian?

Which men? Gentiles? Give scripture the Sabbath was for ALL

I think you are confusing WHAT with HOW. Jesus was referring to WHAT, giving all men rest through him. It is a preposterous contradiction to suppose the HOW excludes Sabbath.

 

[Wrangler]

Mark 2:27, Look at the audience ButterflyJones!!!!!! Jesus is speaking to the wicked Pharisees!
Your verse that you give as "proof" has NO GENTILES BEING SPOKEN TO!!!!

Jesus said he only came for Israel. So, it stands to reason he would be primarily talking to Israel. Do you suppose nothing Jesus ever said applies to the world unless there is a prerequisite quantity of gentiles that meet your satisfaction? Prove it. Where is your evidence?

 

[Wrangler]

Who has the Lord given the commandment to keep the Sabbath day? Answer JEWISH ISRAELITES!!!!
You ignore context ButterflyJones!

We know you are adament on this pretentious point. God chose to reveal himself through the Jews. So, it stands to reason that is who he is talking to. Again, if you claim that unless God explicitly says his worlds apply to the world or gentiles, you will not be able to prove much applies.

For instance, John 3:16 is not said by Jesus but about Jesus. That's a tough nut to crack, a tough standard you are holding yourself to.

 

[Wrangler]

You see the foreigner must be within the land of the Jews for them to observe the Sabbath?

Aren't we all now son's of Abraham? Galatians 3:6-9

 

[Wrangler]

You do not know enough to know Sunday is the day the church in the new testament assembled together to worship God.
So you are wrong to use the Sabbath day, the day of rest as the day the church assembles together to worship God.

Good point. What day do Jews worship?

 

[Titus]

Saturday at sunset is the beginning of the Jewish Sunday -

Matthew 28:1,
- Now  after the Sabbath as the first day of the week began to  dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb

The Bible says it was the first day of the week at dawn when the very first people Mary Magdalene and Mary were eyewitnesses to Jesus' ressurection.

Mark 16:9,
- Now when Jesus rose from the dead early on the first day of the week. He appeared first to Mary Magdalene out of whom He cast seven demons

Jesus rose was ressurected on the first day of the week which is Sunday.

I hold that Jesus was crucified on Wednesday

You have been taught error.

Jesus was crucified on Friday. Heres Biblical proof,

The Bible indicates that Jesus was crucified on friday for the next day was called " the day that followed the day of preparation" Matthew 27:62,
- On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate

It is not an assumption to say that the day of preparation was and still is the common method of referring to the sixth day of the week by both jew and greek speaking people.
Therefore the Hebrew expression three days and three nights- a Friday crucifixion would necessitate a Sunday ressurection.

The day of preparation was the sixth day of the week. Friday was crucifixion. Three days and three nights mathematically ends up as Sunday for ressurection day.
From this we know Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week which was Sunday.
Unless you want to ignore the day after preparation day which must be Friday was the day of crucifixion?
Hopefully you will admit your church has ignored plain scripture to come up with the false supposition that Wednesday was the day of crucifixion thus wrongly leading to Saturday as the day of ressurection.

 

[Wrangler]

Matthew 28:1,
- Now  after the Sabbath as the first day of the week began to  dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb

The Bible says it was the first day of the week at dawn when the very first people Mary Magdalene and Mary were eyewitnesses to Jesus' ressurection.

Titus, you are not listening. Instead you are repeating what I wrote but thinking it has meaning it does not. Your orientation is "dawn" begins the day. Not true in Jewish reckoning. In Jewish reckoning, sunset begins the day as Creation began in darkness AND THEN God said let there be light.

 

[BarneyFife]

You bind Sabbath keeping.

This expression is just puzzling to me. It seems designed to make something sound worse than it is. You're not the first to use it, by any means, so I don't charge the design to you.

What is "binding?" Religious Liberty is a God-given right. It was purchased at Calvary. It can't be revoked. Jesus is so serious about it that he walked through the fiery furnace with Daniel's 3 friends. The folks that testify here in defense of the perpetuity of Jesus's Father's (with Whom He is One) commandments (the ones that He kept) have nothing even remotely resembling a fiery furnace. Can't we treat this subject with just a little solemnity? It may be important to someone. Maybe even God Himself. Sorry if this seems heretical or harsh.

All you have to do to prove your belief that Jewish Sabbath keeping is bound on both jew and gentile by Jesus Himself is give the new testament gospel that binds it on Christians?

It's that simple.
Where is the passage in the gospel of Jesus Christ that binds the old Jewish 10 commandments specifically Sabbath keeping on Christians?

your ignorant of the scriptures you might think that,
Acts 20:7 justifies First day of the week worship.
I cannot help it when others do not have Bible knowledge to know what breaking of bread means in this passage.

This last part is a little tough to decipher, but it sounds like the term "breaking bread" is being offered as a "justification" for Sunday observance replacing the 4th commandment.

And somehow, the logic is supposed to follow that, while the 4th commandment is required to be especially and unequivocally re-commanded, its annulment and/or replacement only needs "justification." This seems a lot like a collective, latent pang of guilt on the part of post-modern, evangelicalism. So it's really nothing personal, just an overall observation. I'm hoping it will be taken as such but, as I mentioned before, growth in grace seems to be evading some folk—no one, in particular, though. The quotes should not be taken as a personal attack; I see this mindset literally everywhere I go.

 

[Titus]

This expression is just puzzling to me. It seems designed to make something sound worse than it is. You're not the first to use it, by any means, so I don't charge the design to you.

What is "binding?" Religious Liberty is a God-given right. It was purchased at Calvary. It can't be revoked. Jesus is so serious about it that he walked through the fiery furnace with Daniel's 3 friends. The folks that testify here in defense of the perpetuity of Jesus's Father's (with Whom He is One) commandments (the ones that He kept) have nothing even remotely resembling a fiery furnace. Can't we treat this subject with just a little solemnity? It may be important to someone. Maybe even God Himself. Sorry if this seems heretical or harsh.





This last part is a little tough to decipher, but it sounds like the term "breaking bread" is being offered as a "justification" for Sunday observance replacing the 4th commandment.

And somehow, the logic is supposed to follow that, while the 4th commandment is required to be especially and unequivocally re-commanded, its annulment and/or replacement only needs "justification." This seems a lot like a collective, latent pang of guilt on the part of post-modern, evangelicalism. So it's really nothing personal, just an overall observation. I'm hoping it will be taken as such but, as I mentioned before, growth in grace seems to be evading some folk—no one, in particular, though. The quotes should not be taken as a personal attack; I see this mindset literally everywhere I go.

Where is your Bible? Not in this post!
Give the new testament gospel of Sabbath keeping for gentiles and converted jews?
I can give you any commandment from Jesus in His new testament.
It's easy, just quote Jesus teaching Sabbath keeping in His new will and testament.

Until you Sabbath binders of the old law do so. You prove you have no evidence to support your position that the Mosaical law is the new covenant Jesus made with born again Christians.

This is boring. I'm waiting for any evidence please!

 

[Johann]

How do you go about persecuting someone on a forum website? I'm sure it doesn't look anything like Jan Hus burning at the stake.

Perhaps you don't believe Hus was executed by the Holy Roman Empire at the behest of the Counsel of Constance in 1415.

Do you know of any Seventh-day Adventist abusing a Catholic believer in such a fashion? I've never heard of nor seen such a thing. Is it anything like narrowly accusing people of "Catholic-bashing?"

If the restraints of law were removed do you think any Adventist would take advantage of that to do bodily harm to another precious soul for whom Christ died?

Do you know that if you are persecuted for your faith, be it Muslim, Catholic, or otherwise, your best chance of being protected under the law and in every other way possible is to contact the Religious Liberty Dept. of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists in Silver Spring, MD, USA, where mine and others' tithe dollars will cheerily pay for your defense?

Should you have occasion to avail yourself of such a service in the future, you are most welcome in advance.

Also, I hope and trust that you will continue to delight yourself in the LORD by practicing the faith dictated by your own conscience. :)

Don't fret brother-I coined a term-"Cyber-bullying" the decimation of anyone's character-whether they be Catholic-7th Day Adventist-Baptist-or any other "-ist"
The "weaponizing" of sincere, born again believers and ironically using Scriptures AGAINST the members in Churches and Denominations.
This is indeed sad to see.
Here, where I am, I have come to know the Muslim Community and can say they are more helpful and assisting the poor and the needy.
Remain strong in Christ Jesus
Johann.

 

[Titus]

Your orientation is "dawn" begins the day. Not true in Jewish reckoning. In Jewish reckoning, sunset begins the day as Creation began in darkness AND THEN God said let there be light

You missed the point I'm making.

You make an assumption that Jesus' ressurection must be before  dawn because according to you Sunday begins at dusk on Saturday.

Nowhere does the scriptures indicate your imagination which is nothing but an assumption from speculation!!!!

You should just be a Bible believer!
You know a Bible believer only goes by what the Bible revealed!!!

Bible believers dont infer something like ressurection right after dusk when NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT JESUS BEING RESSURECTED BEFORE DAWN!


Here is all the INFORMATION that is given about the time when Jesus ressurects from the dead,

This is not my imagination as you used in your argument.

Matthew 28:1,
- Now  after the Sabbath as the first day of the week began to  DAWN, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.

Where does the Bible mention dusk? Answer NOWHERE

You want to add to Gods word? That's the only way you can argue your unbiblical position.

Because you cannot find any reference in Scripture that Jesus was ressurected BEFORE dawn.
I'm a Bible believer so I just accept what the scriptures reveal.

btw, Jesus Cleary rose from the dead after the Sabbath.
That makes the first day of the week very significant because it is the day Jesus ressurected.

To make myself clear. I'm not teaching dawn in this passage represents the time in which the new day begins.

 

[BarneyFife]

Don't fret brother-I coined a term-"Cyber-bullying" the decimation of anyone's character-whether they be Catholic-7th Day Adventist-Baptist-or any other "-ist"
The "weaponizing" of sincere, born again believers and ironically using Scriptures AGAINST the members in Churches and Denominations.
This is indeed sad to see.
Here, where I am, I have come to know the Muslim Community and can say they are more helpful and assisting the poor and the needy.
Remain strong in Christ Jesus
Johann.

You coined the term "cyber-bullying?" You should be rich and famous, Brother! I've heard of that for ages, and I know it's legitimate. I've heard of people committing suicide over it. I've never been anywhere near that desperate, myself, but I have had some folks gang up on me here pretty fiercely for questioning their virtual deification of the apostle Paul, seeming to prefer his counsel even to that of the Lord Jesus, Himself.

Even amidst such a storm of stinging words, I have always been keenly aware of the proper use of technology to escape online assailants. My laptop has a lid; my phone/tablet has -home-/-power- buttons.

It will doubtless seem that I'm oversimplifying a real problem to some, but my children have benefited far and above their peers for our persistent teaching that no one wins arguments and that withdrawal is virtually always preferable to wrestling against flesh and blood, and that battles are won in the prayer closet.

To the matter of which 'religion' is best engaged in religion pure and undefiled before the Father, well, charity is wherever a heart is surrendered to, and moved by the Spirit to exercise it, I suppose, regardless of professions and creeds.

Thanks for lifting up my hands to be strong, Brother. I need all the help I can get! I trust and pray your heart is steadfast and unmovable, always abounding, etc. :)

 

[BarneyFife]

Where is your Bible? Not in this post!
Give the new testament gospel of Sabbath keeping for gentiles and converted jews?
I can give you any commandment from Jesus in His new testament.
It's easy, just quote Jesus teaching Sabbath keeping in His new will and testament.

Until you Sabbath binders of the old law do so. You prove you have no evidence to support your position that the Mosaical law is the new covenant Jesus made with born again Christians.

This is boring. I'm waiting for any evidence please!

This is precisely the kind of response I was hoping to avoid provoking.

Alas, I have failed.

 

[Johann]

Even amidst such a storm of stinging words, I have always been keenly aware of the proper use of technology to escape online assailants. My laptop has a lid; my phone/tablet has -home-/-power- buttons.

It will doubtless seem that I'm oversimplifying a real problem to some, but my children have benefited far and above their peers for our persistent teaching that no one wins arguments and that withdrawal is virtually always preferable to wrestling against flesh and blood, and that battles are won in the prayer closet.

What more can I add to the profound writing of my brother in Christ?
With you at my side?
I have to consult a dictionary every time you post to me-Lol!
And how well have you stated-"battles are WON in the prayer closet" and how right you are-NO ONE WINS!

Shalom Aleichem-peace to you and precious family Barn'
Johann.

 

[BarneyFife]

What more can I add to the profound writing of my brother in Christ?
With you at my side?
I have to consult a dictionary every time you post to me-Lol!
And how well have you stated-"battles are WON in the prayer closet" and how right you are-NO ONE WINS!

Shalom Aleichem-peace to you and precious family Barn'
Johann.

You are much too kind, Brother J. Don't feel bad, though. I have to lie down and relax fully before I can brave some of your dissertations - lol. ;)

Ol' Barn

 

[Titus]

For instance, John 3:16 is not said by Jesus but about Jesus. That's a tough nut to crack, a tough standard you are holding yourself to.

There is nothing difficult at all about John 3:16 being from Jesus' gospel.

John was an apostle. Jesus taught His apostles would be His spokepiece when He went back to His Father.

John was commanded by Jesus to teach everything He commands them to teach.
Therefore the book of John is Jesus' commandments not John's opinions.

John 3:16 was said by Jesus Himself, Mark 16:16,,
- He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; he that believeth not will be damned.

Matthew 28:18-19-20, John is repeating what Jesus already taught.

- All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and in the name of the Son and in the name of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you...

I hold that Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, interred at dusk, and was resurrected by his God Saturday at dusk

More evidence you have been taught error,

Jesus could not of been crucified on Wednesday for they broke their legs to make sure they would not be hanging on the cross on Saturday because of the Sabbath.
Jesus was not on the cross for even one whole day. Therefore if He was crucified on Wednesday there was no need to break His legs to prevent Him from being on the cross on Saturday.
Since He was crucified on Friday it makes since that the soldiers were given orders to break thier legs to prevent them from being on the cross the next day which is the Sabbath day.
John 19:31,
- Therefore because it was preparation day(sixth day of the week) that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath, for the Sabbath was a high day, the Jews asked Pilate that thier legs might be broken and that they might be taken away.

You could not inhale on a Roman cross without pushing up with your legs.
It was excruciating to push because your feet were held by a spike that was driven through.

With the leg bones broken suffocation greatly shortened thier ability to live on the cross.

Wrangler, your sect teaches error.
You need to just believe what the Bible says.

Friday the sixth day of the week was the day of Jesus' crucifixion not wednesday.

Now give me book chapter and verse that teaches Jesus was ressurected at dusk on Saturday?
This also is doctrines of men. There is no Bible passage that teaches this.