The Crucified Flesh

[Johann]

Gen 3:2-7: "2The woman said to the serpent, 'From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, "You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die."' 4The serpent said to the woman, 'You surely will not die! 5For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil (Heb raʽa).' 6When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. 7Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings" (NASB).

Satan is the author of sin (the first to sin) and his decision to sin was followed by fellow-angels, now called "demons" in Scripture (i.e. fallen angels). Eve and Adam followed when also rejecting God's Word (sinning).
In contrast, God is always perfectly righteousness. God never does sin and is not the author of sin. While the Lord created the potential for sin – Satan and rebellious people made it actual.

1 Jn 1:5: "This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all" (NASB).

Ps 92:15: "To declare that the lord is upright;

He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him" (NASB).

Hab 1:13: God's "eyes are too pure to look on evil."

In sum, sin (266/hamartía) is ultimately and originally the choice to be autonomous from God. "The tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Heb raʽa, pain) relates to the same choice we still have today: to prefer God's good or live in (our) pain. The latter (self-government) is always sin – no matter how "respectably" it is done! In contrast, God never sins, nor is He the author of sin. The Lord permits (authorizes) sin, but never does sin.
Reflection: Resisting sin often disappoints people – but better to break anybody's heart . . . than break the heart of God!

Working it out . . .
Js 2:14-26 gives an important "formula": a + b = c. Here "a" (receiving faith from God), consummated by "b" (obeying that faith by a specific Spirit-led work), results in "c" (righteousness, knowing God's approval). In short, "faith + works = divine approval (righteousness)."
Each divine approval in our lives "weaves another strand" in our bridal gown (upcoming glorification).

Rev 19:7-9: "'7Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.' 8It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9Then he said to me, 'Write, "Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb."' And he said to me, 'These are true words of God'" (NASB).

Ro 14:23 concludes a lengthy argument on conscience (developed in Ro 14:1-22). The conclusion is: "Each thing (3856/paradeigmatízō) that is not out the reality of (1537/ek) faith ('the Lord's inworked persuasion,' 4102/pístis) is sin (literally, 'what misses God's mark')."
Ro 14:23: "And everything that does not come from faith is sin" (NIV).

Every "non-faith decision (action)" then misses God's mark (produces sin). This includes commissions and omissions, all that is self-originated and self-empowered. Only what is God-inspired (inbirthed) and God-empowered qualifies as righteousness (His approval, cf. Js 2:14-26).

Sin (266/hamartía) is the offspring of wrongly-placed desire (the parent). This parent-child relationship literally "swells up" to bring forth all the forms of spiritual death.
Js 1:15: "Then wrongly-placed desire (1939/epithymía), having seized-together [i.e. desire with darkness], births sin (266/hamartía); moreover the sin (266/hamartía) having become fully-developed, swells up from [unto] death."

Reflection: "Over-doing" reveals self-righteousness which (ironically) always misses God's approval as much as under-doing (i.e. living in compromise, sloth, etc). The Pharisees in the Gospels for example sinned by over-doing ("over-achieving"). They followed their own self-defined religion which missed God's mark – and then congratulated themselves for it!

Ecc 7:16: "Do not be excessively righteous and do not be overly wise. Why should you ruin yourself?" (NASB).

It is as much sin (missing God's mark) then to go beyond God's line (will) as to fall short of it from fear or compromise. Both proceed from self-will – i.e. operate apart from God's revelation (persuasion) of faith. Both are sin, missing God's target and therefore resulting in the forfeiture of God's approval and all that goes with that. Both therefore proceed from self, rather than God's inworking (gift) of faith.

In contrast, faith is always God-birthed – divinely enabling the believer to live in His victory (1 Jn 5:4).

Summary
266/hamartia ("sin") includes any thought or action that is "not of faith" (Ro 14:23), i.e. is self-prompted and self-energized. Sin (singular) is the choice to be independent from the Lord, following self rather than God. This shows itself in sins.

Sin (266/hamartía) is self-government – and hence even includes doing things that seem "neutral" or that society finds "acceptable" but are not truly of faith. Sin is overcome by receiving and obeying the Lord's inworkings of faith (cf. Ro 1:5, 16:26 with Ro 10:17; Phil 2:12,13; 1 Jn 5:4).

God's good news (= the Gospel) proclaims everything done in faith is approved by Him and is eternally rewarded. Indeed, this enables the believer to enjoy Him intimately forever (cf. Js 2:14-26 with Rev 19:7-9).

 

[Johann]

Article XIII of the Church of England notes that "good deeds done before knowing the grace of Christ . . . still have the nature of sin." Augustine likewise put it well, "Even the virtues of the heathen are sin!"
Righteousness is receiving God's inworking (gift) of faith and then obeying that faith-persuasion (Js 2:14-26). Faith that is obeyed always results in God's approval.

The believer forfeits some dimension of their eternal reward when they sin (cf. 1 Jn 2:28 with 1 Jn 4:17; see also 1 Cor 3:13-15). Unbelievers deepen their everlasting judgment with every decision to sin.

Ro 14:23: "Whatever is not from faith is sin."

Reflection: Faith is always the work of God and hence is received (not self generated, Ro 12:3). See also Gal 5:22 (Gk text); Eph 2:8; 2 Thes 1:11; cf. Hab 2:1-4.

The choice to be self-governing (living apart from revelation-faith) always causes forfeiture – i.e. the loss of God's approval and all this entails for eternity.
We always sin by living according to self, rather than in God's gift (inworking) of faith. Living by our own "inspiration" is always (by definition) sin. The opposite of sin is living in accordance with what God originates and empowers (cf. Ro 14:23 with Heb 11).

Reflection: Martin Luther, "That to which your heart clings and entrusts itself is really your God" (Large Catechism 1.1).

266/hamartia ("sin") is any decision (action) not inspired by the Lord's inworking (gift) of faith – or faith that is not obeyed (faith that does not go on to love, 1 Cor 13:2). Both fall wide (short, beyond) of God's mark.

This calls for regular repenting! A constant area that needs repentance for example is choosing "the good" instead of what the Lord says is the better – i.e. failing to be on God's "high honor roll." See also Ro 1:17; 2 Cor 3:18; cf. 2307/thélēma ("God's preferred-will").

God created the potential for sin, man made it actual. 266 (hamartía) is any decision (deed) not birthed and empowered by the Lord – regardless of how "harmless" or even humanly "virtuous" it seems to be.

Key quotes
∙ M. Vincent, "Heathen authors say very little about sin, and classic paganism had little or no conception of sin in the Gospel sense. The nearest approach to it was by Plato, from whose works a tolerably complete doctrinal statement might be gathered of the origin, nature, and effects of sin.

"The fundamental idea of hamartia (266, sin) among the Greeks is physical; 'the missing of a mark'; from which it develops into a metaphysical meaning, 'to wander in the understanding.' . . . In the Platonic conception of sin, intellectual error is the prominent element" (WS, 522).

[Plato, "The business of the founders of the state will be to compel the best minds to attain that knowledge which has already been declared by us to be the greatest of all – they must continue to rise until they arrive at the good" (Republic, vii, 519)" (ala WS, 522).]

∙ K. Wuest, "Sin is a missing of the goal conformable to and fixed by God. It is interesting to note that in Romans the word dikaiosyne which means "conformity to the standard" appears as the opposite of hamartia, a missing of the standard set by God (6:16-18)" (3, Vocabulary, 95,96).

["Sin is the violation of covenant and rebellion against God's personal lordship. It is more than an aberration or a failure which added knowledge can correct. It is a violation of relationship, a betrayal of trust" (G. Ernest Wright and Reginald Fuller, The Book of the Acts of God, New York: Doubleday and Co., 1957, 94).]

Grammatical note
266/hamartia ("sin") occurs about 20 times without the Greek definite article in Paul's writings. Four seem to be strictly indefinite (2 Cor 5:21, 11:7; 1 Tim 5:22; 2 Tim 3:6). The rest seem qualitative, i.e. stressing the intrinsic nature of sin (Arthur Slaten, Qualitative Nouns, Univ of Chicago Press, 1918, 41). 266 (hamartia) occurs four times without an article in prepositional phrases (in Paul), each apparently with a qualitative emphasis (see Ro 3:9, 8:10; Gal 3:22).

[2316/theos ("God") can also occur without the article to express a qualitative emphasis (= "fully divine!"). This sense is possible for example, in Jn 1:1, "and the Word was divine."

With Paul, 2316 (theós) may often be used without the article to stress the idea "divine" – perhaps 158 times out of its total 520 occurrences (so Arthur Slaten, Qualitative Nouns, Univ of Chicago Press, 1918, 66). This force can likewise apply to the frequent use of theos (God) in prepositional phrases.]

Quotes worth re-quoting . . .
J. C. Ryle, "Holiness is the habit of being of one mind with God, according as we find it in Scripture. It is the habit of agreeing in God's judgment, hating what He hates, loving what He loves, and measuring everything in this world by the standard of His Word. He who most entirely agrees with God, he is the most holy man."
Thomas a Kempis, "We ought rather choose to have the whole world against us, than to offend Jesus" (The Imitation of Christ, 2, 8, ad 15th century).
D. L. Moody, "Either sin will keep you from this Book, or this Book will keep you from sin." There is no middle ground.
John Ruskin, "When a man is wrapped up in himself, he makes a pretty small package!" Life is always made smaller by sin (self-determination).
Reflection: Horatius Bonar (1808-89) the Scottish hymn-writer recorded:

"Twas I that shed the sacred blood; I nailed him to the tree; I crucified the Christ of God; I joined the mockery.

"Of all that shouting multitude, I feel that I am one; And in that din of voices rude, I recognize my own.

"Around the cross the throng I see, Mocking the Sufferer's groan; Yet still my voice it seems to be, As if I mocked alone."

Reflection: Sin rejects God's will – which is "utterly sinful" (Ro 7:13)! In contrast, the believer desiring sanctification and its eternal glorification says "yes" to God's offers to inbirth faith.

Phil 3:8-11: "8But indeed rather I deem all things to be loss on account of (1223/diá with the accusative case) the surpassing value of the experiential-knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered loss about all things – indeed I deem them as rubbish so that I may gain (Gk aorist subjunctive) Christ, 9and may be found (Gk aorist subjunctive) in (1722/en) Him, not having my (1699/emós) righteousness, the one out from law, but the one through (1223/diá with the Gk genitive) faith from Christ, the righteousness which comes out from God on the basis (the operation) of faith, 10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11if in fact by the (right) means I might attain into (1519/eis) the full-impact of the resurrection out from the (realm) of the dead (what lacks life)."

 

[Johann]

Let's get this thread going--and correct errors in what I post-doing a study on Rom 6.

 

[Lizbeth]

My hope is that we can explore some of these things in this thread without all the mockery and such. May it be so!!


To my understanding baptism by water if something we as gentiles do by tradition. I look at "there is one faith, one baptism . . .", and that baptism being into Christ.

I remember one night many years ago on the floor praying for more power in my life, and asking to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, as I'd heard taught.

The Spirit instructed me to ask my then pastor for prayer, knowing he would lay hands on me to receive that baptism.

I no longer think that way, that there is a subsequent baptism of the Spirit, because of how I understand the Bible now. At the time I did.

That Sunday, I did as I was instructed, and afterward, I felt His power flood through me, I was giddy with joy for some time afterward, knowing my life had just been forever changed. And it was changed!

Since then, though, I've come to see, God's done this more times since, and as the Bible describes, They were filled with the Spirit and spoke the word of God with boldness. I've come to see this that we are baptized into Christ, which is also in the Holy Spirit, and in this we are reborn. Afterward, we may have however many fillings of the Spirit.


These two, Crossing the Red Sea, and Crossing the Jordan, make for good examples of how to read the Bible.

1 Corinthians 10:1-2 KJV
1) Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

This is named as a type, while I'm not aware of the Jordan Crossing being actually named that way. I think that the things names types apply across the board to all. I think others that aren't named that, or aren't taught that way, we may find them extremely illustrative of aspects within the Christian life, though not necessarily applied to all.

There's an expression I hear some use, "gloriously saved", referring to when God saves someone who is in a very bad way, drug addictions, mental health issues, things like that, and God delivers them completely. Others it seems spend many years getting past these things. I think that we can as it were wander in the wilderness, then have a "crossing the Jordan" moment when we start to 'get it', and start to actually conquer territory in our lives.

But I don't think that if someone has felt near to Christ since being reborn, and has seen victory in their life, I wouldn't go preaching to them that they are missing out because they refuse to recognize they have to first spend time in the wilderness!

If someone has held on Christ in faith, why would I want to split them up?

To me, that's the real key difference, is if we pay attention to the Word - the specific things it says, and we believe them.

My understanding of the Bible is, and my experience in life is, when I remain trusting in my complete reconciliation to God, I'm open to receive from Him the strength to live a new life.

Much love!

Really I'm not sure we should go telling anyone that they "have" to do anything, other than to follow/obey Jesus. Everyone has their own individual walk with the Lord and are at different places in their walk and growth. He is the one leading each soul....as long as they are hearing/seeing and obeying. Also I wonder if there is a double message where it talks about not causing our brother to stumble because of the "meat" we are eating. We shouldn't try to force feed things to 'younger' believers who aren't ready for strong meat yet. For example, where it says, "I have more things to say to you but you cannot bear them now."

After we receive the Holy Spirit for the first time, it doesn't stop there, I agree, and scripture talks about times of refreshing.....but just that there is a first time for everyone to receive and be filled, I believe. "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed....?"

 

[Lizbeth]

The context for the "baptism with fire" makes it clear that this is about damnation. It has nothing to do with either John's baptism or the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Mt 3:10-12).

What is "unquenchable fire" other than the fires of Hell -- the Lake of Fire? "Trees" bringing forth evil fruit (people living in sin and wickedness) are cast into the fire. "Purging" means cleansing. "Chaff" means that which is useless.

This "fire" has been taken out of context and made into something good when it is in fact eternal damnation.

John said that Jesus would baptize "you" (believers) with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Why fire....because judgment begins with the house of God. And scripture says (paraphrasing) that when we go through the waters we will not be drowned and when we go through the fire it will not hurt us. We are told not to be surprised when we go through various trials......and that God chastises who He loves as sons.....that we may partake of His holiness. The same waters of judgment that destroyed the earth, worked for the good of those who were ensconced in the Ark by lifting them above the earth that was being destroyed. It's like a picture of our flesh nature being judged and destroyed, but our inner man is safely hidden in Christ. That's why it says if we try to save our life/psuche we will lose it, but if we lose our life (psuche) for His sake, we will find it. A corn of wheat must be buried and die before it can produce a crop.

 

[Lizbeth]

We are the corn of His threshing floor....we're being threshed in order to free and separate the corn from the chaff/husk of our flesh.....it's OUR chaff that is being burned up in the fire.

Jesus said it is through much tribulation that we will enter the kingdom of heaven.

In Joshua the Lord said they would defeat their enemies little by little lest the wild beasts overrun the land.....that is what is happening in our lives....it is just necessary that we have to suffer and fight battles in order that our wild beast nature of pride and all that comes from that, doesn't take over. Fighting and tribulation is a necessary part of the process that trains and teaches us. We don't grow in the mountaintop experiences, but in the valleys. Mountaintops are for the purpose of encouraging and strengthening us to be able to go back down in the valley and fight and grapple with our enemy some more. I think most have heard of the proverbial butterfly....the struggle to emerge from its cocoon is just necessary to squeeze it's lifeblood into its wings to enable it to "fly". If someone comes along and cuts it free from the cocoon instantly without involving any struggle, the butterfly will not be able to fly, it's wings will have no strength.

But I am tending to believe there is a culmination and completion of the process and all that struggle to be "born".....becoming spiritual.

 

[Enoch111]

John said that Jesus would baptize "you" (believers) with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Not necessarily believers. The "you" would have applied to his entire audience, and depending on who would repent and believe and who would not, there would be two outcomes: (1) the gift of the Holy Spirit to believers and (2) eternal damnation to those who refused to obey the Gospel. That is what "unquenchable fire" is associated with.

 

[Lizbeth]

Not necessarily believers. The "you" would have applied to his entire audience, and depending on who would repent and believe and who would not, there would be two outcomes: (1) the gift of the Holy Spirit to believers and (2) eternal damnation to those who refused to obey the Gospel. That is what "unquenchable fire" is associated with.

....with the Holy Spirit AND with fire...? Our God is a consuming fire....because we are hidden in the cleft of the rock (Christ/ark) it won't harm "us", that is, our inner man that is hid. But it is now consuming/burning away our flesh nature. And it will destroy in the end those who aren't hid in Christ. Followers of Christ are being judged now, so that we won't be judged with the world, in the end...this is what it means where it says judgment begins with His house. If we are without chastisements now in this life we are illegitimate children.

 

[amigo de christo]

....with the Holy Spirit AND with fire...? Our God is a consuming fire....because we are hidden in the cleft of the rock (Christ/ark) it won't harm "us", that is, our inner man that is hid. But it is now consuming/burning away our flesh nature. And it will destroy in the end those who aren't hid in Christ. Followers of Christ are being judged now, so that we won't be judged with the world, in the end...this is what it means where it says judgment begins with His house. If we are without chastisements now in this life we are illegitimate children.

If the world loves us we are bastards and not sons . Judgment is about to pick up too .
The so called haters that most all in churches now call haters are getting surrounded , beat up , yelled at
kicked at . But since this age believes its a sin to now even go into the streets to preach Christ , well it dont know
what i speak about . I challenge all on that note .
The reason most dont see any kind of persecution , slur , hateful words , or worse
is cause they too busy hating on the ones who do correct sin and error . We got a problem in the casa .
Everyone is fast to judge a street preacher , yet wont BUDGE AN inch to go out and let the light shine themselves .

 

[amigo de christo]

Its real easy to drive from the backseat . Try DRIVING .

 

[Lizbeth]

Not necessarily believers. The "you" would have applied to his entire audience, and depending on who would repent and believe and who would not, there would be two outcomes: (1) the gift of the Holy Spirit to believers and (2) eternal damnation to those who refused to obey the Gospel. That is what "unquenchable fire" is associated with.

Actually, you know what I think it is......it's speaking in the spirit and touching on more than one thing at the same time. "One thing God has spoken, two things have I heard."

 

[Lizbeth]

Jesus had come looking for fruit on the "fig tree", but found none, so He cursed it. He was looking to "harvest" fruit/souls from Israel into the new covenant of faith, but only a few responded to Him. So in Luke 3 (and Matt 3) John was on one level warning Israel of judgment, of their fruitless tree being cut down and thrown into the fire if they didn't bear fruit...that they would be the chaff burned in the fire. I agree with that. But at the same time I believe he was alluding to the baptism of fire and threshing that believers must undergo (there are references to the threshing floor in the OT, eg, the allegory of Ruth offering herself to Boaz on his threshing floor).

Here is the scripture already mentioned...I am finding it hard NOT to see two baptisms there, one of water and one of fire:

Isa 43:2

When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.


And Jesus Himself spoke of His upcoming suffering and crucifixion as a baptism that He must undergo in context of sending fire on the earth (He went through it first to kindle it):

Luk 12:49-53

I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

When Peter referred to the trials and persecutions of believers as a FIERY trial I don't think he pulled that description out of nowhere but believe he was referring back to what John and Jesus had spoken:

1Pe 4:12-13

Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

We take up our own crosses and follow Jesus and similarly undergo baptism of sufferings/fire....to the death of our "psuche" or self-life, that we might partake of His holiness. We are chastised as sons by our heavenly Father, much like our earthly fathers chastised us according to their will, and Jesus "learned obedience" by His sufferings, as it was His Father's will to crush Him and cause Him to suffer (Is. 53:10) ......alluding to olives crushed in an olive press in order to produce oil. (Mount of Olives and Gethsemane.)

 

[marks]

1Pe 4:12-13

Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

We take up our own crosses and follow Jesus and similarly undergo baptism of sufferings/fire....to the death of our "psuche" or self-life, that we might partake of His holiness. We are chastised as sons by our heavenly Father, much like our earthly fathers chastised us according to their will, and Jesus "learned obedience" by His sufferings, as it was His Father's will to crush Him and cause Him to suffer (Is. 53:10) ......alluding to olives crushed in an olive press in order to produce oil. (Mount of Olives and Gethsemane.)

Reminds me of,

2 Timothy 2:11-12 KJV
11) It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Much love!

 

[marks]

When Peter referred to the trials and persecutions of believers as a FIERY trial I don't think he pulled that description out of nowhere but believe he was referring back to what John and Jesus had spoken:

Matthew 20:22-23 KJV
22) But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23) And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

I understand this to be referring to Jesus' suffering, and that these would likewise suffer. They seemed to readily answer, I wonder if they realized what they were saying?

I've not suffered anything like what Jesus would have suffered! I've had tiny tastes that were still devastating to me at the time. May God give us great grace in the day we truly suffer!

I see Jesus' baptism by fire, as we've been talking about this, it's the result of a kindled fire, that burns, and continues to burn, until all that will burn is gone. I think of this as we are baptized into Jesus Christ resulting in eternal life, and the 'baptism' in fiery trials continuing throughout life to burn away all fleshiness from us.

I see these trials as the very contrary things that are intended to move us more to faith, to reject fleshiness, and that as we respond that way, they prove we are real children of God, because we trust in Him.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

Matthew 20:22-23 KJV
22) But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23) And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

I understand this to be referring to Jesus' suffering, and that these would likewise suffer. They seemed to readily answer, I wonder if they realized what they were saying?

I've not suffered anything like what Jesus would have suffered! I've had tiny tastes that were still devastating to me at the time. May God give us great grace in the day we truly suffer!

I see Jesus' baptism by fire, as we've been talking about this, it's the result of a kindled fire, that burns, and continues to burn, until all that will burn is gone. I think of this as we are baptized into Jesus Christ resulting in eternal life, and the 'baptism' in fiery trials continuing throughout life to burn away all fleshiness from us.

I see these trials as the very contrary things that are intended to move us more to faith, to reject fleshiness, and that as we respond that way, they prove we are real children of God, because we trust in Him.

Much love!

Jesus promised His disciples they would drink from the same cup as Him which is the cup of suffering , pain , persecution and martyrdom.

In Matthew 26:39, Jesus says, "If it be your will, let this cup pass from me." Jesus tells us precisely what the cup was. It was the cup of his suffering, which meant that He would die an agonizing death as a martyr. In the passage below, Jesus told His disciples that they would also drink of the same "cup":

Matthew 20:17-

Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

hope this helps !!!

 

[marks]

Matthew 20:20-23

20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

Notice Jesus will share with them from His cup. This included John, who, according to tradition, did not die a martyr's death. Though also according to tradition, they tried to kill him but he didn't die.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

Notice Jesus will share with them from His cup. This included John, who, according to tradition, did not die a martyr's death. Though also according to tradition, they tried to kill him but he didn't die.

Much love!

But he sure was persecuted . not all were killed , but all will suffer persecution .
And due to this all inclusive love unity fest of falsehoods and lies , many more will soon have to even die for Christ .
This love fest is of the dragon . IT shall not be heeeeded by a lamb . ITS LOVE IS FALSE , ITS UNITY IS FALSE .
THey over look the truth and believe in lies and accept some sins and all paths . THUS ITS A LIE FROM HELL .
Wont be heeded by the lambs either .

 

[marks]

1Pe_1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

We can go deeper--but this will suffice and I sense a anointing on this particular thread.
Johann.

So often I see two ways to read a passage. Here in this case, I can read this as, "Be ye holy, because I'm holy, and you are to measure up to Me." Or I can read it as, "Be ye holy, because I'm holy, and you've been remade to be like Me."

I see this in measuring up to the full stature of Christ, reaching a maturity in our faith and therefore in our practice.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

So often I see two ways to read a passage. Here in this case, I can read this as, "Be ye holy, because I'm holy, and you are to measure up to Me." Or I can read it as, "Be ye holy, because I'm holy, and you've been remade to be like Me."

I see this in measuring up to the full stature of Christ, reaching a maturity in our faith and therefore in our practice.

Much love!

Let us remember GOD dont call sins HOLY . As i am sure you know .
SO if we think holding and supporting a dark rainbow means we are holy and walking in love .
YEah , I got bad news . We are decieved and have bought a lie and a false love .
IF we hold to the banner that all religions serve the same GOD we do
I got bad news , ITS A LIE , peroid .
Just calling a spade a spade .

 

[marks]

It is a violation of relationship, a betrayal of trust"

This is a good thought!

Much love!