How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

[Eternally Grateful]

I still go back to when Paul stood before them and they’re wanting proof Christ speaks in him. Because from where they stood he was a reprobate in their eyes. Not yet a brother. But an outsider to them. As one who is without. Is this not what they are saying in you are a reprobate? What is hidden? They claim brothers to Christ…yet they don’t see what is hidden from them …Christ in Paul.


They being the ones thinking they are in the right. While not seeing the gospel in Paul….held out to them. It being hid from their eyes. It stands out to me Paul could see it by Faith in them. “Until Christ be formed in you” and this Paul seeks by Faith in Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:19-20 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation. [20] Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

To me this is exactly what Paul does in that passage of being blamed as being one hidden in darkness. Committing the word of reconciliation….as an ambassador for Christ, God beseeching unto them …their blinded by the god of this world that they don’t see what they refuse see in Paul (on the verge of turning away from the gospel) which is Christ speaks in Paul.

But they couldn’t see Christ in Paul otherwise they wouldn’t have called him a reprobate; therefore calling Christ in Paul the reprobate. instead considering him no brother, no brethren, it hidden from their sight and Paul as one they had help out of the darkness of being reprobate.

To me what is there in the exchange is …they don’t see Paul as a brother while Paul isn’t saying the gospel is loving you in your sins but instead prayer a light (which Paul does pray) shines and they see, more than hoping, having Faith in the light of Christ speaking in Paul to shine unto the darkness of their hearts not seeing what is hidden from them, which is Paul (Christ in Him) is not as one who fails.

To me that is hopeful. Hopeful by Faith in Christ …that what is hidden be seen, made manifest which is Christ. To me it still speaks of brothers who can’t see they are brothers in Christ. That being the gospel hidden that the god of this world does not want to be seen. That the light may shine in the knowledge of Christ and God be glorified is reconciliation and restoration of what the god of this world has destroyed.

Lets look to Christ

Not Paul

Not Epi

Christ

for only he can save you..

He will not let you in when your still dead in sin. epi is proclaiming you can be let in whle still dead in sin apart from being born again..

He is in error. And Paul never taught such a gospel

 

[Johann]

I don't know brother. I'm trying to understand it. Blessed is the man whose sins the Lord doesn't count against him.....justification (exoneration?) by faith, not because one hasn't sinned? Does that make sense?

לְדָוִ֗ד H1732 le·da·Vid, [A Psalm] of David מַ֫שְׂכִּ֥יל H4905 mas·Kil Maschil אַשְׁרֵ֥י H835 'ash·Rei Blessed נְֽשׂוּי־ H5375 ne·sui- [is] forgiven פֶּ֗שַׁע H6588 Pe·sha', [is he whose] transgression כְּס֣וּי H3680 ke·Sui [is] covered חֲטָאָֽה׃ H2401 cha·ta·'Ah. [whose] sin

Psa 32:2 Ashrei is the adam unto whom Hashem imputeth not avon (iniquity), and in whose ruach there is no remiyyah (guile, deceit).

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin, and whose mouth there is no guile.

You are correct--In the Old Testament the saint's sins were "covered" but they were saved-our sins have been completely taken away by the death and resurrection of our blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
You can actually preach a sermon, based on this verse. I prefer "covered" as to exonerate, clemency--

Joh_1:47; 2Co_1:12; 1Pe_2:1-2; Rev_14:5--Now to look up the word "Guile" Lizbeth
In whose spirit there is no guile. In this clause the Psalmist distinguishes believers both from hypocrites and from senseless despisers of God, neither of whom care for this happiness, nor can they attain to the enjoyment of it. The wicked are, indeed, conscious to themselves of their guilt, but still they delight in their wickedness; harden themselves in their impudence, and laugh at threatenings; or, at least, they indulge themselves in deceitful flatteries, that they may not be constrained to come into the presence of God.

Yea, though they are rendered unhappy by a sense of their misery, and harassed with secret torments, yet with perverse forgetfulness they stifle all fear of God. As for hypocrites, if their conscience as any time stings them, they soothe their pain with ineffectual remedies: so that if God at any time cite them to his tribunal, they place before them I know not what phantoms for their defense; and they are never without coverings whereby they may keep the light out of their hearts.

Both these classes of men are hindered by inward guile from seeking their happiness in the fatherly love of God. Nay more, many of them rush frowardly into the presence of God, or puff themselves up with proud presumption, dreaming that they are happy, although God is against them.

David, therefore, means that no man can taste what the forgiveness of sins is until his heart is first cleansed from guile. What he means, then, by this term, guile, may be understood from what I have said. Whoever examines not himself, as in the presence of God, but, on the contrary, shunning his judgment, either shrouds himself in darkness, or covers himself with leaves, deals deceitfully both with himself and with God.

It is no wonder, therefore, that he who feels not his disease refuses the remedy. The two kinds of this guile which I have mentioned are to be particularly attended to. Few may be so hardened as not to be touched with the fear of God, and with some desire of his grace, and yet they are moved but coldly to seek forgiveness. Hence it comes to pass, that they do not yet perceive what an unspeakable happiness it is to possess God’s favor. Such was David’s case for a time, when a treacherous security stole upon him, darkened his mind, and prevented him from zealously applying himself to pursue after this happiness.

Often do the saints labor under the same disease. If, therefore, we would enjoy the happiness which David here proposes to us, we must take the greatest heed lest Satan, filling our hearts with guile, deprive us of all sense of our wretchedness, in which every one who has recourse to subterfuges must necessarily pine away.
You would not believe me if I told you who wrote this--that's IF you concur.


The Psalm begins with the celebration of the happiness of the man who experiences God's justifying grace, when he gives himself up unreservedly to Him. Sin is called פֶּשַׁע, as being a breaking loose or tearing away from God; חֲטָאָה, as a deviation from that which is well-pleasing to God; עָוֹן, as a perversion, distortion, misdeed. The forgiveness of sin is styled נָשָׂא (Exo_34:7),

as a lifting up and taking away, αἴρειν and ἀφαιρεῖν, Exo_34:7; כִּסָּה (Psa_85:3, Pro_10:12, Neh_4:5), as a covering, so that it becomes invisible to God, the Holy One, and is as though it had never taken place; לֹא חָשַׁב (2Sa_19:20, cf. Arab. ḥsb, to number, reckon, ου ̓ λογίζεσθαι, Rom_4:6-9), as a non-imputing; the δικαιοσύνη χωρὶς ἔργων is here distinctly expressed.

The justified one is called נְשׂוּי־פֶּשַׁע, as being one who is exempted from transgression, praevaricatione levatus (Ges. §135, 1); נְשׂוּי, instead of נְשֻׁא, Isa_33:24, is intended to rhyme with כְּסוּי (which is the part. to כִּסָּה, just as בָּרוּךְ is the participle to כְּרֵךְ); vid., on Isa_22:13.

One “covered of sin” is one over whose sin lies the covering of expiation (כִּפֶּר, root כף, to cover, cogn. Arab. gfr, chfr, chmr, gmr) before the holy eyes of God. The third designation is an attributive clause: “to whom Jahve doth not reckon misdeed,” inasmuch as He, on the contrary, regards it as discharged or as settled.

He who is thus justified, however, is only he in whose spirit there is no רְמִיָּה, no deceit, which denies and hides, or extenuates and excuses, this or that favourite sin. One such sin designedly retained is a secret ban, which stands in the way of justification.
keil & Delitzsch

kâsâh
BDB Definition:
1) to cover, conceal, hide
1a) (Qal) conceal, covered (participle)
1b) (Niphal) to be covered
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to cover, clothe
1c2) to cover, conceal
1c3) to cover (for protection)
1c4) to cover over, spread over
1c5) to cover, overwhelm
1d) (Pual)
1d1) to be covered
1d2) to be clothed
1e) (Hithpael) to cover oneself, clothe oneself
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root

Shalom sister
Later

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Lets look to Christ

Not Paul

Not Epi

Christ

for only he can save you..

He will not let you in when your still dead in sin. epi is proclaiming you can be let in whle still dead in sin apart from being born again..

He is in error. And Paul never taught such a gospel

Paul is looking to Christ.
That is the example.
In my life…that is the Hope also. That Christ is Faithful to do what He has said. Don’t twist it into looking at someone else. That is not what I was sharing. But the opposite of hope and joy in Christ is not dead.

 

[Johann]

No, not at all! I take it that "by faith" is assuming one is re-born ( or in the case of OT saints counted as being born again, and looking ahead to when Jesus would be crucified).

Would you say the OT saints were reborn, or their sins covered Lizbeth?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Lets look to Christ

Not Paul

Not Epi

Christ

for only he can save you..

He will not let you in when your still dead in sin. epi is proclaiming you can be let in whle still dead in sin apart from being born again..

He is in error. And Paul never taught such a gospel

Before you come back with more non sense of reading into what you want or choose is being said. I’ll give you the benefit of that you don’t know what it means to me. Assuming you do. So I will try to explain. To me the reason I LOVE the exchange there is not because of Paul…and also the exchange between Stephen and Paul…is again not them …but what Christ does in them. It makes me encouraged that Christ is not some fairy tale but alive and true and ever Faithful. It does not point to men…but Christ in them that continues and endures. All of it pointing, looking up to Christ who delivers. To me that is what is being said in the exchange between Paul and them…that Christ is the deliverer out from darkness. Giving sight to those blind refusing to see what is hidden from those already perishing, already condemned unless they turn and the veil be removed (taken away) and they be healed.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

He will not let you in when your still dead in sin. epi is proclaiming you can be let in whle still dead in sin apart from being born again..

While you were yet still dead in your sins; He died. So that a Light shine into the darkness yet the darkness comprehends it not.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Paul is looking to Christ.
That is the example.
In my life…that is the Hope also. That Christ is Faithful to do what He has said. Don’t twist it into looking at someone else. That is not what I was sharing. But the opposite of hope and joy in Christ is not dead.

What does he promise to do?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

While you were yet still dead in your sins; He died. So that a Light shine into the darkness yet the darkness comprehends it not.

Yes.

He died for what? So you could be made alive?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Before you come back with more non sense of reading into what you want or choose is being said. I’ll give you the benefit of that you don’t know what it means to me. Assuming you do. So I will try to explain. To me the reason I LOVE the exchange there is not because of Paul…and also the exchange between Stephen and Paul…is again not them …but what Christ does in them. It makes me encouraged that Christ is not some fairy tale but alive and true and ever Faithful. It does not point to men…but Christ in them that continues and endures. All of it pointing, looking up to Christ who delivers. To me that is what is being said in the exchange between Paul and them…that Christ is the deliverer out from darkness. Giving sight to those blind refusing to see what is hidden from those already perishing, already condemned unless they turn and the veil be removed (taken away) and they be healed.

I see it this way

A person is on death row because he commited a crime worthy of death

Someone comes to save him,

however, it is said he is just saved to not kill again

Is he truly saved? Will he not still die because of his crime?

Of course he will

That is what EPi wants us to believe, The christ died to save those on death row. But he only died to save them from committing those crimes again. In walking as jesus walked He did not save them from the end result of those crimes, which was death

they remain on death row. And will suffer death

If one says he died for their sin and freed them from their penalty of death, because he died in their place. He calls us religious and decieved.

We are not decieved

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What does he promise to do?

To Take away the veil that keeps you and all the others here on one side and you all asking repeatedly for proof of Christ in me. Why can’t you see Him in me? why is He hidden from you where you are so dead certain you have to make me a sister? As if I am not one already? I know, I know I imagine it. I make these things up. It is very clear to me…what is hidden as not yet being alive but we need to make alive in this one. Worried as they were worried for Paul asking for the same proof of Christ …when they should have worried for themselves as to where was their proof in what they claimed. In the passage I see a reversal. Of who is the gospel hidden from? Who are questioning and judging and asking for proof of Christ? Why when so certain of looking up to Christ, they need proof? Looking under every stone for it.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I see it this way

A person is on death row because he commited a crime worthy of death

Someone comes to save him,

however, it is said he is just saved to not kill again

Is he truly saved? Will he not still die because of his crime?

Of course he will

That is what EPi wants us to believe, The christ died to save those on death row. But he only died to save them from coming those crimes again. He did not save them from the end result of those crimes, which was death

they remain on death row. And will suffer death

If one says he died for their sin and freed them from their penalty of death, because he died in their place. He calls us religious and decieved.

We are not decieved

More deflecting.

 

[ChristisGod]

To Take away the veil that keeps you and all the others here on one side and you all asking repeatedly for proof of Christ in me. Why can’t you see Him in me? why is He hidden from you where you are so dead certain you have to make me a sister? As if I am not one already? I know, I know I imagine it. I make these things up. It is very clear to me…what is hidden as not yet being alive but we need to make alive in this one. Worried as they were worried for Paul asking for the same proof of Christ …when they should have worried for themselves as to where was their proof in what they claimed. In the passage I see a reversal. Of who is the gospel hidden from? Who are questioning and judging and asking for proof of Christ? Why when so certain of looking up to Christ, they need proof? Looking under every stone for it.

The gospel is only hidden from unbelievers who are perishing whom are blinded by the god of this world, not believers.

2 Corinthians 4
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.

Matthew 18
“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.

 

[Johann]

More deflecting.

1) "But if our gospel be hid," (ei de kai estin kekalummenon to evangelion hemon) "But if indeed our gospel has been hidden," or "even if our gospel is hid, that is "veiled;" Thus Paul returns to the usage of the "law-veil" metaphor of 2Co_3:12-18.

2) "It is hid to them that are lost;" (en tois apollumenois estin kekalummenon) "It is having been hidden in those who are lost," or it is veiled, not clear to the perishing or lost ones, for whom Jesus died, Joh_3:15-16; 1Co_1:18; 2Th_2:10; Luk_19:10.


2Co_4:4, 2Co_2:15-16, 2Co_3:14; Mat_11:25; 1Co_1:18; 2Th_2:9-11


I don't think he is deflecting, why don't you understand what he is saying?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

To Take away the veil that keeps you and all the others here on one side and you all asking repeatedly for proof of Christ in me. Why can’t you see Him in me? why is He hidden from you where you are so dead certain you have to make me a sister? As if I am not one already? I know, I know I imagine it. I make these things up. It is very clear to me…what is hidden as not yet being alive but we need to make alive in this one. Worried as they were worried for Paul asking for the same proof of Christ …when they should have worried for themselves as to where was their proof in what they claimed. In the passage I see a reversal. Of who is the gospel hidden from? Who are questioning and judging and asking for proof of Christ? Why when so certain of looking up to Christ, they need proof? Looking under every stone for it.

So thats all he promised to do?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

More deflecting.

Nope not deflecting at all.

Just trying to show you the truth about what Christ came to do. And the truth of what Epi is teaching..

 

[ChristisGod]

Nope not deflecting at all.

Just trying to show you the truth about what Christ came to do. And the truth of what Epi is teaching..

Did I miss something ?

the " truth " of what epi is teaching ?

could you explain the truth that epi said, thanks !

I must of missed that one.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It does not good to talk about the “walk” if we do not get the division that separates God from man settled first.. Otherwise you it the car befor the horse

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Did I miss something ?

the " truth " of what epi is teaching ?

could you explain the truth that epi said, thanks !

I must of missed that one.

The truth about what epi is teaching

Some of the things he said is on spot.. But he misses the most important step..

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I see it this way

A person is on death row because he commited a crime worthy of death

Someone comes to save him,

however, it is said he is just saved to not kill again

Is he truly saved? Will he not still die because of his crime?

Of course he will

That is what EPi wants us to believe, The christ died to save those on death row. But he only died to save them from coming those crimes again. He did not save them from the end result of those crimes, which was death

they remain on death row. And will suffer death

If one says he died for their sin and freed them from their penalty of death, because he died in their place. He calls us religious and decieved.

We are not decieved

I’m getting off here. My heart hurts. I’ve tried to share with you. I’ve tried to share with you application of Faith in Christ in my life. Not some empty words but even in my marriage. I want to cry why doesn’t my husband see Christ in me? Why am I always having to fight to defend that Christ is in me? Everywhere, why is it so difficult to see Him? Am I blind for seeing Him? Am I delusional?

Maybe I am being selfish, maybe I assumed Christ in me would make me worthy of love with the people around me. But to me that seems to be the message that God is for healing. Filling us up with what is needful towards others. What I read in the Word is a hope of things destroyed and torn apart becoming better in Christ. Whatever that looks like…it has to be better than what this world offers. To me looking up and waiting for Him who delivers is …waiting for the Revelation of Jesus Christ to be revealed. Seen. Maybe I am religious and sanctimonious but wanting…no needing a family around me…needing others to bond with…I think Christ wants and desires the same good things for me. Because He loves me. When no other loves me, He loves me. To me this is inheriting the promises of Christ formed in others that the god of this world does not want to let go from captivity to Christ. To me that is why “seek Him first” and “all these things will be added unto you”. Great things. All pertaining to the bond of love in Him. I want that. Not the anxiety or depression or not ever being lovable…hidden and separated from others…I seek Christ in me because He is worth it. To me Faith is trusting God has better things for us then we can even imagine. It is HIs being seen in others as well as ourself.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Did I miss something ?

the " truth " of what epi is teaching ?

could you explain the truth that epi said, thanks !

I must of missed that one.

The truth about what epi is teaching

Some of the things he said is on spot.. But he misses the most important step..