Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

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marks

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I would like to hear from Catholics and @marks @mailmandan @amigo de christo
It's the preaching of the cross, not baptism.

1 Corinthians 1:17-18 KJV
17) For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

To give a direct answer to the thread title, No, spiritual baptism does not replace water baptism. They are two different things, each with it's own purpose, and those purposes are not identical.

Much love!
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Mat_21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
You didn’t add the rest of their reasonings. But if we say from men, we fear what the people will do to us because they think John is a prophet sent from God.
It’s brilliant and sort of funny. Jesus painted them into a corner they could not answer their way out of.
 
J

Johann

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It's the preaching of the cross, not baptism.

1 Corinthians 1:17-18 KJV
17) For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Much love!
"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach" This is not meant to disparage baptism (cf. Matt. 28:19), but to react to the factious spirit in the church of Corinth that was lifting up certain leaders. However, this statement does indicate that baptism was not seen as a "sacramental" agency of grace. It is surprising that some interpret Paul's writings in a sacramental sense when in all his writings he specifically mentions the Lord's Supper only once in 1 Corinthians 11 and baptism twice, in Rom. 6:1-11 and Col. 2:12. However, baptism is the will of God for every believer:

it is the example of Jesus (Matt: 3:13-17)
it is the command of Jesus (Matt. 28:28-10)
it is the expected, normal procedure for all believers (Romans 6; Acts 2:38)


I do not believe it is the channel for receiving the grace of God or the Spirit. It was that public opportunity for new believers to express their faith in a very public and decisive way. No NT believer would ask, "Must I be baptized to be saved?" Jesus did it! Jesus commanded the church to do it! Do it!

I don't want to be argumentative brother--nor only was I mislead by Calvin, but from the Pentecostal-ic church as well, which to this day left a deep scar and hindered my growth in Christ Jesus.

The reason why I started "late" in this race, but I want to say, like Paul.............

2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.


Guess I'm going to receive a lot of negativism from others.

God bless marks
J.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Just one question..............

Mat_21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

Mar_1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mar_11:30 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.

Luk_7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

See above? Not only Jews were baptized while confessing their sins--an ot--sign--that these were repentant, but also the publicans' 'they were openly and publically keeping on their confessions/repentance....

Luk_20:4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?

Act_1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Act_10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;


Act_13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

So, we have two camps, those that advocate "no water baptism" and those "yes, be water baptized--since this was from heaven and Yeshua gave His approval of Yochanan's "water ministry"

I would like to hear from Catholics and @marks @mailmandan @amigo de christo

Johann.
no one is saying no to water baptism

the argument is why one is baptised

to get saved

or because they were saved.
 

marks

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This is not meant to disparage baptism
You need to account for the actual message of the passage, and somehow find it's harmony with passages which appear contrary. Scripture is never against other Scripture.

1 Corinthians 1:17-18 KJV
17) For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

If water baptism were the power of God to salvation, why wasn't Paul sent to baptize? But there's no mystery, it's in the preaching of the cross.

Much love!
 
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marks

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no one is saying no to water baptism

the argument is why one is baptised

to get saved

or because they were saved.
My understanding is that water baptism is a tradition within the church, but only that. It stopped being applicable when the Gospel was given directly to the Gentiles. It was applicable while Gentiles were still coming into Israel in believing in Jesus.

Much love!
 

Raccoon1010

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My understanding is that water baptism is a tradition within the church, but only that. It stopped being applicable when the Gospel was given directly to the Gentiles. It was applicable while Gentiles were still coming into Israel in believing in Jesus.

Much love!
I just read a passage in John, that said unless a man is born of water and the spirit he will not enter heaven. John 3:5
 
J

Johann

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I just read a passage in John, that said unless a man is born of water and the spirit he will not enter heaven. John 3:5
What does born of water mean? The range of interpretations is wide and there is no clear consensus.

(1) This interpretation says that in using the phrase born of water Jesus was referring to water baptism or Christian baptism as we practice it today.

Gangel comments that "No less a scholar than Westcott argues for baptismal regeneration from a text like this. Borchert (NAC-Jn) and Luther do not, but they see the water as the act of baptism."

Carson has an excellent argument against this interpretation writing that "If water = baptism is so important for entering the kingdom, it is surprising that the rest of the discussion never mentions it again: the entire focus is on the work of the Spirit (v. 8), the work of the Son (vv. 14–15), the work of God himself (vv. 16–17), and the place of faith (vv. 15–16)....The Spirit plays a powerful role in John 14–16; 20:22, but there is no hint of baptism.....The entire view seems to rest on an unarticulated prejudice that every mention of water evoked instant recognition, in the minds of first-century readers, that the real reference was to baptism, but it is very doubtful that this prejudice can be sustained by the sources. Even so, this conclusion does not preclude the possibility of a secondary allusion to baptism" (PNTC-Jn)

Constable - According to this view spiritual birth happens only when a person undergoes water baptism and experiences regeneration by the Holy Spirit. Some advocates of this view see support for it in the previous reference to water baptism (1:26 and 33). However, Scripture is very clear that water baptism is a testimony to salvation, not a prerequisite for it (cf. 3:16, 36; Eph. 2:8–9; Titus 3:5). In addition, this meaning would have had no significance for Nicodemus. He knew nothing of Christian baptism. Furthermore Jesus never mentioned water baptism again in clarifying the new birth to Nicodemus.

Steven Cole - Some think that it refers to Christian baptism. But Christian baptism didn’t exist at that point. Jesus was trying to explain things to Nicodemus, not confuse him with a doctrine which he knew nothing about. Also, to teach that sprinkling water on an infant causes the new birth would be to say that religion saves a person, which is the opposite of what is being said here!

J M Boice - Unfortunately, this is not substantiated either by the text or by biblical theology. The text says nothing at all about baptism, and the Bible elsewhere teaches that no one is saved by any external rite of religion (1 Sam. 16:7; Rom. 2:28–29; Gal. 2:15, 16; 5:1–6). Baptism is a sign of what has already taken place, but it is not the agent by which it takes place.(Boice - The Gospel of John)

Edwin Blum - This view contradicts other Bible verses that make it clear that salvation is by faith alone; e.g., John 3:16, 36; Eph. 2:8–9; Titus 3:5. (Bible Knowledge Commentary)

Kenneth Wuest -
Others interpret the word “water” as referring to the rite of water baptism. But we submit that this is pure eisegesis, reading into the text something that is not there. Surely, the word “water” in itself, does not include within its meaning the idea of baptism. Furthermore, the only proper recipient of water baptism is one who has already been born again, the new-birth preceding water baptism, not the rite preceding the new birth. Again, the question arises as to how such a supernatural change as regeneration produces, could be the result of a mere ceremony.


As you can see, many "interpretations"
 
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Raccoon1010

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What does born of water mean? The range of interpretations is wide and there is no clear consensus.

(1) This interpretation says that in using the phrase born of water Jesus was referring to water baptism or Christian baptism as we practice it today.

Gangel comments that "No less a scholar than Westcott argues for baptismal regeneration from a text like this. Borchert (NAC-Jn) and Luther do not, but they see the water as the act of baptism."

Carson has an excellent argument against this interpretation writing that "If water = baptism is so important for entering the kingdom, it is surprising that the rest of the discussion never mentions it again: the entire focus is on the work of the Spirit (v. 8), the work of the Son (vv. 14–15), the work of God himself (vv. 16–17), and the place of faith (vv. 15–16)....The Spirit plays a powerful role in John 14–16; 20:22, but there is no hint of baptism.....The entire view seems to rest on an unarticulated prejudice that every mention of water evoked instant recognition, in the minds of first-century readers, that the real reference was to baptism, but it is very doubtful that this prejudice can be sustained by the sources. Even so, this conclusion does not preclude the possibility of a secondary allusion to baptism" (PNTC-Jn)

Constable - According to this view spiritual birth happens only when a person undergoes water baptism and experiences regeneration by the Holy Spirit. Some advocates of this view see support for it in the previous reference to water baptism (1:26 and 33). However, Scripture is very clear that water baptism is a testimony to salvation, not a prerequisite for it (cf. 3:16, 36; Eph. 2:8–9; Titus 3:5). In addition, this meaning would have had no significance for Nicodemus. He knew nothing of Christian baptism. Furthermore Jesus never mentioned water baptism again in clarifying the new birth to Nicodemus.

Steven Cole - Some think that it refers to Christian baptism. But Christian baptism didn’t exist at that point. Jesus was trying to explain things to Nicodemus, not confuse him with a doctrine which he knew nothing about. Also, to teach that sprinkling water on an infant causes the new birth would be to say that religion saves a person, which is the opposite of what is being said here!

J M Boice - Unfortunately, this is not substantiated either by the text or by biblical theology. The text says nothing at all about baptism, and the Bible elsewhere teaches that no one is saved by any external rite of religion (1 Sam. 16:7; Rom. 2:28–29; Gal. 2:15, 16; 5:1–6). Baptism is a sign of what has already taken place, but it is not the agent by which it takes place.(Boice - The Gospel of John)

Edwin Blum - This view contradicts other Bible verses that make it clear that salvation is by faith alone; e.g., John 3:16, 36; Eph. 2:8–9; Titus 3:5. (Bible Knowledge Commentary)

Kenneth Wuest - Others interpret the word “water” as referring to the rite of water baptism. But we submit that this is pure eisegesis, reading into the text something that is not there. Surely, the word “water” in itself, does not include within its meaning the idea of baptism. Furthermore, the only proper recipient of water baptism is one who has already been born again, the new-birth preceding water baptism, not the rite preceding the new birth. Again, the question arises as to how such a supernatural change as regeneration produces, could be the result of a mere ceremony.

As you can see, many "interpretations"
It explained that as baptism. The surrounding passages make that clear as it was refering to John the Baptist baptizing people. Read the scriptures.
 
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Raccoon1010

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@Johann if you continue reading John 3 you will see them baptizing in

22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.


23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Now I don't know about you but teaching not to baptize is evil and a false teaching.

The bible also speaks of a man told a man to wash in the Jordan to be healed. What if that man was defiant also and didn't wash in the Jordan? Would God have healed him?

The point is to do what Jesus tells you to do and don't question his directives. Otherwise you're being defiant of God.
 

marks

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@Johann if you continue reading John 3 you will see them baptizing in

22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.


23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
It's an interesting point, when we associate "born of water" with John's baptism.

Acts 19:2-6 KJV
2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

These having been baptized by John, were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, these being different baptisms.

Much love!
 
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Raccoon1010

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It's an interesting point, when we associate "born of water" with John's baptism.

Acts 19:2-6 KJV
2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

These having been baptized by John, were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, these being different baptisms.

Much love!
I think what's clear from that scripture is how important it really is to be baptized and to have it done correctly. The Spirit was the second baptism after that. And it didn't come until they were baptized correctly in water.
 

marks

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I think what's clear from that scripture is how important it really is to be baptized and to have it done correctly. The Spirit was the second baptism after that. And it didn't come until they were baptized correctly in water.
I'm reading the Spirit came on them after their baptism, when Paul laid hands on them.

Which reminds me also . . . the 120 disciples in the upper room on Pentecost . . . I don't remember any mention of them being water baptized in relation to receiving the Holy Spirit, or being baptized in Jesus' Name. I'd assume they would have been baptized by John, at least, those who became disciples before John was imprisoned. So maybe not. I'm not assuming one way or the other, only what I know by what I read.

But still they received the Holy Spirit apart from water baptism, it seems.

Much love!
 
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Raccoon1010

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I'm reading the Spirit came on them after their baptism, when Paul laid hands on them.

Which reminds me also . . . the 120 disciples in the upper room on Pentecost . . . I don't remember any mention of them being water baptized in relation to receiving the Holy Spirit, or being baptized in Jesus' Name. I'd assume they would have been baptized by John, at least, those who became disciples before John was imprisoned. So maybe not. I'm not assuming one way or the other, only what I know by what I read.

But still they received the Holy Spirit apart from water baptism, it seems.

Much love!
There is a passage where they received the Holy Spirit and then commanded to be baptized. I think the point is, no where in the scriptures does it ever say baptism isn't commanded of us. At least not that I've seen. I've only seen passages that say it is necessary.