What say you?
Transformation or cover-up (reformation)?
Transformation or cover-up (reformation)?
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Darkness and light (poll)
- Thread starter Episkopos
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Our bibles have a bias...a Christian bias (mostly correct), but also (King James version as an example) a reformation bias. Some verses are translated in a way that produces an undesirable result.
A prime example of that bias comes with the translation of Is. 1:18 into English.
"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Is. 1:18 (KJV)
This verse is translated as if God was speaking to our sins...as opposed to speaking to us. This way of reading the verse supports Luther's idea that justification involves "covering up" a dunghill of sin with a fresh coat of snow...thus making our sins appear to be white as snow.
However, reading the verse that way imposes a viewpoint that is incorrect. The whole chapter is addressing God's people, not their sins. A better rendering of the verse would read...
"......If your sins make you as scarlet, you shall be white as snow; if you become red as crimson, you shall be as wool" Is. 1:18 (non-biased version)
The whole context of the chapter is to cease to DO evil...not make evil appear as good.
Is God speaking to our sins or to us? Seeing that the translation from Hebrew has been corrupted to support a sinful holiness...what can be done? Are we as English speakers then cursed to misunderstand the word of God? Or does a simple non-biased rendering of the Hebrew shed light that dispels the darkness confusing the church?
A prime example of that bias comes with the translation of Is. 1:18 into English.
"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Is. 1:18 (KJV)
This verse is translated as if God was speaking to our sins...as opposed to speaking to us. This way of reading the verse supports Luther's idea that justification involves "covering up" a dunghill of sin with a fresh coat of snow...thus making our sins appear to be white as snow.
However, reading the verse that way imposes a viewpoint that is incorrect. The whole chapter is addressing God's people, not their sins. A better rendering of the verse would read...
"......If your sins make you as scarlet, you shall be white as snow; if you become red as crimson, you shall be as wool" Is. 1:18 (non-biased version)
The whole context of the chapter is to cease to DO evil...not make evil appear as good.
Is God speaking to our sins or to us? Seeing that the translation from Hebrew has been corrupted to support a sinful holiness...what can be done? Are we as English speakers then cursed to misunderstand the word of God? Or does a simple non-biased rendering of the Hebrew shed light that dispels the darkness confusing the church?
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Does God make darkness light and light darkness through a scheme that sees one imputed on the other? Or is that on us? Is the Reformation from God or from men? Is Luther an agent of light or of darkness?
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Is. 5:20
Does the gospel truly involve light making a deal with darkness?
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Is. 5:20
Does the gospel truly involve light making a deal with darkness?
Behold
Well-Known Member
Regarding the Spiritual
Darkness refers to evil, and Light refers to Righteousness.
Spiritual darkness is the absence of Truth and Righteousness.
Spiritual Light, IS the Truth and is Righteousness.
A born again person is "translated FROM Darkness....... TO Light".
A "dark light", is an unbeliever, or can be a born again believer.
In both cases their understanding of TRUTH has become darkened, and now their truth is spiritual darkness that they will teach, share, ect.
How to recognize these deceived people?
Just find out if they believe that Jesus keeps them saved, or not.
If "not" then you have discovered a deceived person, who is spiritually subverted from the truth, and has become a "dark light".
The people infect Christian forums and if possible they will break your faith in Christ and have you chasing commandments, and law, among other self effort to try to stay saved by your own self effort......which is impossible.
I'm hoping to make the imputation doctrine more clear for people so they can choose the road they wish to go down. One of the weanings (shedding of iniquity) of the outer man is to let go of the reformation doctrines that continue to divide the Body of Christ.
God doesn't see us differently than we really are. He sees into the future...but that doesn't change our current condition.
If a person kills someone, and serves 30 years in prison for that act...that changes a person. If we say...well, you will be released in 30 years anyway so then you may as well go free right now...then we circumvent any growth in understanding based on experience.
Does God impute His own righteousness on others? Never! No...He either finds us as righteous or not (as human, not divine beings).
The righteousness of God is an anointed covering that empowers us to walk in resurrection life...by the Spirit. There is no sin in Christ. In Him is no sin.
If we take away the higher walk to make all believers claim to be walking at the same level as our Lord...then we are promoting a sinful holiness and destroying the high calling that is IN Christ.
Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed....God is never blind to our true condition.
Matt. 10:26 "Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known."
God doesn't see us differently than we really are. He sees into the future...but that doesn't change our current condition.
If a person kills someone, and serves 30 years in prison for that act...that changes a person. If we say...well, you will be released in 30 years anyway so then you may as well go free right now...then we circumvent any growth in understanding based on experience.
Does God impute His own righteousness on others? Never! No...He either finds us as righteous or not (as human, not divine beings).
The righteousness of God is an anointed covering that empowers us to walk in resurrection life...by the Spirit. There is no sin in Christ. In Him is no sin.
If we take away the higher walk to make all believers claim to be walking at the same level as our Lord...then we are promoting a sinful holiness and destroying the high calling that is IN Christ.
Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed....God is never blind to our true condition.
Matt. 10:26 "Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known."
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Listen, God sees you as a hell bound sinner, before you are born again.
After you are born again, God sees you as a SON of God.
Do you understand this difference? ... Apparently you dont.
So, You should think about that before you again write that "God does not see us different then we really are"... as being Born again is significantly different in the eyes of GOD.....than how He viewed us before we were born again.
Exposure? To the hidden recesses of our minds and hearts...sometimes that light shows me things I would rather have just forgotten. Ouch. The light overcomes the darkness so, LIGHT WINS!
Behold
Well-Known Member
The righteousness of God isn't a covering. Its a JOINING of Holy God's Spirit, to ours.
This is why its referred to as "BORN AGAIN"...and "MADE Righteous".
We are righteous because we have received God's Righteousness as a gift.
Jesus took our sins, and then God joined His HOLY SPIRIT to ours, in "spiritual union" and THERE we exist, as "the righteousness of God, in Christ'.
This is what it means to become a SON/Daughter of God.
No-- 'None of the Above' category?
Light and darkness cannot coexist. One is the absence of the other. You can't cover darkness with light. Neither can you transform darkness into light. Darkness is vanquished when light arrives. It can only exist when there is no light.
In other words, there is no relationship per se, between darkness and light. They are divorced. Separated.
As it was since the beginning....
Now the earth was without shape and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the watery deep, but the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the water. God said, “Let there be light.” And there was light! God saw that the light was good, so God separated the light from the darkness.
Not. Two. (Light and darkness)
I am.
Scarlett: In archery, the second or next to the innermost circle of the target, which is colored red.
The point of the passage is precisely that it isn’t about a multiplicity of selves (with sin).
The point isn’t to “cease to do evil”, it’s to realize there are no selves, and no evil.
I am.
Scarlett: In archery, the second or next to the innermost circle of the target, which is colored red.
The point of the passage is precisely that it isn’t about a multiplicity of selves (with sin).
The point isn’t to “cease to do evil”, it’s to realize there are no selves, and no evil.
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The reformation idea of imputed righteousness as being that of God Himself is proved wrong very easily. What's harder is for those who have fallen for that form of heresy to be honest. No one is choosing the "imputed" option so far....which is the reformation option. The other option...that of "imparted" light (righteousness) is a Catholic position..one that was held for 1,500 years before the Great Delusion came along.
Where's the honesty?
I'm hoping that some people will rise above their indoctrination and come to the light. :)
Where's the honesty?
I'm hoping that some people will rise above their indoctrination and come to the light. :)
Oh…okay. I understand now what you were getting at. I didn’t understand when I read your op earlier.
We always make the same mistakes as Israel did, it seems.
I see leaving the bad doctrines behind as tearing down the idols of our fathers. Getting rid of the high places. Doing away with anything that exalts itself above Christ.
There are so many bad doctrines that everyone just seems to accept. I think all you can do is show with verses how they are not good teachings and hope God will show others too.
I think at least one main difficulty in men’s minds comes from the thought that it cannot be possible that it is enough they are seen by God to have done the right thing to trust since they keep having problems with their flesh - emotions and resentments and angers or whatever besetting problem you insert here. And these problems remain problems even if they manage to keep them hidden inside for the most part or somehow manage to bite their tongue, because the spirit of the matter is, anger is sin even if it never proceeds to the outside and remains hidden in the heart.
I think that’s why they come up with the reasonings and doctrines Of make believe stuff, like imputed goodness, since they assume actual goodness must be impossible because God has not resolved the problem for them yet and they don’t see anyone else they know the problem has been resolved in either.
You are right that the problem begins to be solved by making a distinction between what is holy and what is not and teaching on from there. And the uncertainty and fear that comes from that is something you have also tackled well, with your teaching about how God makes a place for some among the nations and doesn’t only make a place for the holy.
A lot of people are open to listening because they know something is insufficient but can’t figure out what.
But there are also, in every age, men who want to kill the men who begin to understand, with Gods help, enough to begin to truly be of practical help. Those (who are so angrily murderous and lacking all pity) are not the ones to be speaking or contending with. Only God can deal with them, like He did with the murderous Saul. If we contend with them, we do so in disobedience, in my opinion. The disobedience is refusing to listen about shaking off your feet, throwing pearls, or refusing to have anything to do with them. We can blame the angrily murderous ones but if those who more is expected of are continuing to be disobedient to any of our Lords commands, like the ones just mentioned, the greater condemnation will actually come to them. Sobering, huh?
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I had some other thoughts on this just now and they flew clean out of my head by the time I pulled it back up! I have an older operating system pfft…Oh no…they were important and good! oh yes, got it! paul and the basket and fleeing.
22 Saul’s preaching became more and more powerful, and the Jews in Damascus couldn’t refute his proofs that Jesus was indeed the Messiah. 23 After a while some of the Jews plotted together to kill him. 24 They were watching for him day and night at the city gate so they could murder him, but Saul was told about their plot. 25 So during the night, some of the other believers[e] lowered him in a large basket through an opening in the city wall.
26 When Saul arrived in Jerusalem, he tried to meet with the believers, but they were all afraid of him. They did not believe he had truly become a believer! 27 Then Barnabas brought him to the apostles and told them how Saul had seen the Lord on the way to Damascus and how the Lord had spoken to Saul. He also told them that Saul had preached boldly in the name of Jesus in Damascus.
28 So Saul stayed with the apostles and went all around Jerusalem with them, preaching boldly in the name of the Lord. 29 He debated with some Greek-speaking Jews, but they tried to murder him. 30 When the believers[f]heard about this, they took him down to Caesarea and sent him away to Tarsus, his hometown.
31 The church then had peace throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria
So in verses 22-25, it says Paul’s preaching “became more and more powerful” and that he was preaching SO powerfully that the Jews couldn’t refute it and wanted to kill him. You get the feeling he was actually walking in the Spirit at that time to have that much power behind his teaching that no one could refute it. The other believers secreted him out in a basket because you can’t let someone like that be murdered if you can help it, they are too valuable to the body for what they have to bless the body with. Additionally, Paul, and the ones who helped get him out, were obedient to the Lords command: when you are persecuted in one city, flee to another. It all just sounds and feels…right.
But there’s something different in verses 28-31, in the next town. Preaching boldly in Jesus’ name sounds good. But the feel changes after that. It says he debated with some Jews who then tried to kill him. It doesn’t sound like they had the warning of a plot this time AND “debating” sounds different than the “preaching so powerfully” and the “no one could refute” of the previous town. It sounds like he was not, at that particular time, walking IN the Spirit.
Additionally, he wasn’t yet preaching where, and to who, he was supposed to. He was preaching to the Jews, not the gentiles. And then something of note comes - right after the “debating” and attempted murder, the believers sent him to his hometown and: 31 The church then had peace throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria.
Paul was sort of…getting his sea legs, feeling his way, discovering and/or learning how to do what he was called to and here’s what I think he (and the church) was really learning - how to preach in season, (while actually walking IN the Spirit), and how to operate and preach out of season, (while being led by the Spirit.)
mmm…one more thing…there are differences between fleeing persecution and running to another place, and staying and debating out of stubbornness, and being grabbed and imprisoned. Some wisdom or wisdom and practice would be needed to know exactly how to proceed, when to stop and refuse to have anything to do with, and differences between whether in season or out. Might not be very clear in last paragraph here.
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Very interesting thoughts. I agree that Paul was not always in the Spirit. The time he argued with Barnabas...and with Peter. A little hot-headed at times. :)
We can be led by the Spirit and yet still be walking in our own power (flesh). However, we may learn to grow in character as the training of God takes full effect.
BeyondET
Well-Known Member
BeyondET
Well-Known Member
Space_Karen
Well-Known Member
Light is picking up a book and reading, to foster spiritual and mental development, through a leaning process.
Darkness is being surrounded by books and information, and never reading or learning anything.
Darkness is being surrounded by books and information, and never reading or learning anything.
God is a God who hides Himself. He makes OUR darkness His hiding place. God lives in impenetrable light. The righteous in this world are themselves a light because they have allowed the light of truth to penetrate into their own obscurity. What keeps light away from dispelling our darkness? Doors. That's why Jesus knocks on the door of those who think they are rich and saved but are actually not yet connected to God's light.
If we come to God, He will dispel our darkness.
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