The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

[RLT63]

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

I just love when someone tries to tell me that the Bible doesn’t say what it says

 

[Lizbeth]

I agree. By faith we are able to "walk above" that corrupt old man. It doesn't mean we go around declaring ourselves "sinless", that is for Jesus to do, not ourselves.

And I'm not sitting here saying I'm sinless "except for mayby something I'm not aware of", that's not it at all! But I believe that we are able to live that way in the power of Christ, as our minds are renewed, and/or as God gives the gift of faith to do so.

Much love!

Amen. I haven't heard anyone declaring themselves sinless. We can be putting words in people's mouths that they are not saying, when we misunderstand what they are trying to get across. (Happened to Jesus too.)

I believe it is possible to put our flesh and carnal nature under our feet - to crucify it, kill it so that it is no longer activated or manifesting. That is what the Lord is trying to do with us, and that's what all our suffering and chastisements are for. I'm thinking in terms that the old man carnal nature even when dead is still there, but dead and buried, as long as we don't resurrect it and build again what was torn down lest we make ourself a transgressor.

The bible says all things have been put under Jesus' feet, but we not yet "see" everything put under. Because for the vast majority of believers we are still in process of apprehending and enforcing the victory that Jesus won on the cross. I'm thinking about the Israelites who were chastised by the Lord for not having faith to believe they could put the Canaanites under their feet and possess the Promised Land (which was a place of rest from slavery and of rest from their Canaanite enemies - which is speaking allegorically to the church). We don't want to sell ourselves short, or rather to come short of the victory that Jesus suffered and died for on our behalf. We all should be running the race SO AS TO WIN IT! And not be discouraged by thinking our "enemies" are too powerful for us and that it's not possible to defeat them.....because with GOD all things are possible. It's not by might, not by power, but by my Spirit saith the Lord!

 

[Lambano]

We all should be running the race SO AS TO WIN IT! And not be discouraged by thinking our "enemies" are too powerful for us and that it's not possible to defeat them.....because with GOD all things are possible.

We also need to go into the fight with our eyes wide open.

What I'm seeing here is the expectation that once you become a Child of God, all the desires of "the World, the Flesh, and the Devil" either just go away, or are automatically put under your feet. So we go into the fight thinking it's going to be easy. We go into the fight with our guard down. Then thirty years of getting cut and knocked down. We keep getting told that REAL Children of God are not able to be cut and bruised and bloodied and dropped on the canvas. If you are, it's because you're not His.

We were lied to.

That's what's discouraging.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I just love when someone tries to tell me that the Bible doesn’t say what it says

First, does the context support your interpretation? Second, does the rest of the Bible support your interpretation? Three, does the epistle of John as a whole support your interpretation? Four, 1 John 1:8 does mean what it says but it depends on how you read it (of which I will explain below briefly). Four, 1 John 1:10 helps to define 1 John 1:8. We both agree that we have sinned in the past. So we agree on 1 John 1:10 In that it is wrong to say that we have never sinned ever in our human lives. Who would deny that we have sinned in our past lives? This would obviously be those who were trying to seduce the brethren (1 John 2:26).

1 John 1:8 says:

”If we say that we have no sin,​

we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”​

And my commentary to the text:

1 John 1:8

“If we say that we have no sin [in the sense that sin does not exist whatsoever or it is an illusion],​

we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”​

Christian Scientists don’t believe sin exists at all, and they think it is an illusion. So 1 John 1:8 would be a warning to them.
That is what this verse is saying. It has to because otherwise you have a contradiction in 1 John 2:4 if your wrong interpretation on justifying sin using 1 John 1:8 is true. But if you want to take a gamble with your soul on justifying sin with God, knock yourself out. Just know that a slave to sin will not abide in the house forever (John 8:34-35) (Then see Matthew 13:41-42).

Side Note:

Oh, and again: You are not dealing with 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, and 2 Corinthians 7:1. You need to know how to deal with them and not explain them away. I say this because God is good, holy, and righteous and He cannot agree with your sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I just love when someone tries to tell me that the Bible doesn’t say what it says

Isaiah 45:7 says,
”I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

So do you believe God creates evil by our modern understanding on that word?
Meaning, did God just create the devil out of thin air with him being evil to begin with and or did God create sinful things?
Surely not. So Scripture has to be rightly divided by comparing Scripture with Scripture.

God is good, and He did not create evil (By our modern understanding on that word).
The word “evil” means misfortune or calamity.

But yet, I have argued with other Christians who thought otherwise in regards to Isaiah 45:7.
Their wrong interpretation is no different than your wrong interpretation involving 1 John 1:8.
Your interpretation must mean that God is promoting you to be a slave to your sin. But if that is true, then God would have to agree with sin and that is not possible because God is good, Holy, and righteous. In fact, if you are not following after holiness, you will not see the LORD (See: Hebrews 12:14). So again: If you want to take that gamble with your soul, knock yourself out. Just know God will quote His Word to you on the last day. For why would Jesus say depart from me, you that work iniquity (sin) if your being a slave to your sin is okay with God? (See: Matthew 7:22-23, and then see Matthew 7:26-27).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

2 Timothy 2:19
”Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

 

[RLT63]

First, does the context support your interpretation? Second, does the rest of the Bible support your interpretation? Three, does the epistle of John as a whole support your interpretation? Four, 1 John 1:8 does mean what it says but it depends on how you read it (of which I will explain below briefly). Four, 1 John 1:10 helps to define 1 John 1:8. We both agree that we have sinned in the past. So we agree on 1 John 1:10 In that it is wrong to say that we have never sinned ever in our human lives. Who would deny that we have sinned in our past lives? This would obviously be those who were trying to seduce the brethren (1 John 2:26).

1 John 1:8 says:

”If we say that we have no sin,​

we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”​

And my commentary to the text:

1 John 1:8

“If we say that we have no sin [in the sense that sin does not exist whatsoever or it is an illusion],​

we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”​

Christian Scientists don’t believe sin exists at all, and they think it is an illusion. So 1 John 1:8 would be a warning to them.
That is what this verse is saying. It has to because otherwise you have a contradiction in 1 John 2:4 if your wrong interpretation on justifying sin using 1 John 1:8 is true. But if you want to take a gamble with your soul on justifying sin with God, knock yourself out. Just know that a slave to sin will not abide in the house forever (John 8:34-35) (Then see Matthew 13:41-42).

Side Note:

Oh, and again: You are not dealing with 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, and 2 Corinthians 7:1. You need to know how to deal with them and not explain them away. I say this because God is good, holy, and righteous and He cannot agree with your sin.

Who is justifying sin? Sin is not justified it’s wrong.

 

[RLT63]

2 Timothy 2:19
”Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

Yes we don’t walk in sin and live contrary to the word of God but we all stumble. No one is perfect, no one is sinless.

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

Sinless Perfectionism is Unbiblical
However, the Bible also says that ‘If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us’ (1 John 1:8)

In the same book, John teaches that 'IF we sin, we have an advocate with The Father, Jesus Christ The righteous'.
IF we sin, not "when", suggesting that we don't actually have to sin. John also taught 'he who sins, is of the devil'.
I personally believe that many use 1 John 1:8 as an excuse 'to' sin.
'With God all things are possible'. Ask anyone whose been delivered from any particular sin. It's His divine power which sets the prisoner free. To say that this is impossible, is to deny The Lord.

Jesus is "The Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes we don’t walk in sin and live contrary to the word of God but we all stumble. No one is perfect, no one is sinless.

But you are not departing from iniquity because you believe you will always be in iniquity (sin) because of a false interpretation on 1 John 1:8. Jesus said to two people to “sin no more.” (John 5:14) (John 8:11). Do you believe Jesus when He said these words? Peter said he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. Then he says we should live the rest of of our time not to the will of the flesh but to the will of God (See 1 Peter 4:1-2). You don’t believe we can cease from sin because of a false interpretation on 1 John 1:8. Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts. But you don’t believe you can crucify the affections and lusts because of a false interpretation on 1 John 1:8. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. But you don’t believe you can cleanse yourself from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit because of a false interpretation on 1 John 1:8. 1 John 2:4 says that the person who says they know the Lord and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. Sin is the breaking of the law or the commandment (1 John 3:4). So how can you claim to always be in sin (breaking his commandments) as per 1 John 1:8 and yet also claim to be keeping his commandments? If you are breaking his commandments occasionally, you are not keeping his commandments.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Who is justifying sin? Sin is not justified it’s wrong.

When one uses 1 John 1:8 as an excuse to be a slave to sin (when that is not what it is saying) it is to justify sin. The same is true when Christians use Romans 7:14-24 as an excuse to sin on some level. To say one is not sinless means one is not seeking to be that way and thereby they are justifying sin. Proof? Do you believe you can lose your salvation by sin? If not, then obeying God is optional or only when it is convenient or in your best interest. But Jesus warned how even looking upon a woman in lust can cause our bodies to be cast into hellfire (Matthew 5:28-30).

 

[Johann]

Do you believe you can lose your salvation by sin? If not, then obeying God is optional or only when it is convenient or in your best interest. But Jesus warned how even looking upon a woman in lust can cause our bodies to be cast into hellfire (Matthew 5:28-30).

Do you look upon a woman with lust in your heart, or are you "incapable" of doing so?
What about sins of omission?

 

[marks]

this one particular point.

Well thank you!

Much love!

 

[Johann]

You also gave a “like” rep to the OP that is against Sinless Perfection (with an article explaining it).

Do you suffer from a small man's syndrome?
I have counted, 5 maybe 6x you cried [like a baby] to @marks re my stance on sinless perfection and the fact that he "liked" my post.
You are annoying
J.

 

[marks]

Amen. I haven't heard anyone declaring themselves sinless. We can be putting words in people's mouths that they are not saying, when we misunderstand what they are trying to get across. (Happened to Jesus too.)

I have through the years. I've seen some declare themselves sinless, and some who write in such a way as to imply sinlessness, to the point where others routinely comment on it. With the person then never acknowledging one way of the other, only allowing others to think so of them.

I believe it is possible to put our flesh and carnal nature under our feet - to crucify it, kill it so that it is no longer activated or manifesting. That is what the Lord is trying to do with us, and that's what all our suffering and chastisements are for. I'm thinking in terms that the old man carnal nature even when dead is still there, but dead and buried, as long as we don't resurrect it and build again what was torn down lest we make ourself a transgressor.

I believe as Christians we are already crucified to our flesh, but since we continue to use our flesh, we have to deal with the way it is, that is, corrupted by sin. Back to that analogy of driving a wrecked car.

We can get better at driving it, but if we decide to drive over a cliff, the car is going to be wrecked again!

The bible says all things have been put under Jesus' feet, but we not yet "see" everything put under.

Yes, I think this is apt to describe our situation.

We don't want to sell ourselves short, or rather to come short of the victory that Jesus suffered and died for on our behalf. We all should be running the race SO AS TO WIN IT! And not be discouraged by thinking our "enemies" are too powerful for us and that it's not possible to defeat them.....because with GOD all things are possible. It's not by might, not by power, but by my Spirit saith the Lord!

Amen and amen!!!!

Much love!

 

[marks]

@marks

You believe you don’t lose salvation if you sin.
But Paul says, “Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.” (Romans 6:1-2) (KJB).
So you are saying grace still abounds even if you continue in sin (on some level) because you don’t believe sin separates you from God.

I really don't like when you put your words into my mouth, as if they were mine. But in this way you are having a conversation with yourself and I am merely a prop.

Much love!

 

[marks]

This is turning God’s grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

I'm just quoting the Bible to you, and telling you I believe what God said.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You criticized me and another poster in another thread about whether or not we keep the 1st greatest commandment. I have heard these types of questions before by those who believe they can sin and still be saved

I asked you a question by way of "Reality Check". It's up to you to recognize reality.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So if you believe you can cease from sin then why did you give a ”like” rep to the OP on their denial of Sinless Perfection?

I give likes for various reasons, and I've also "liked" your posts before. Do you likewise have a problem with that? If I give a like it's not saying I agree with everything you say.

It may mean I liked a certain turn of phrase, or I agree with something that you'll find me quoting later in a reply, or something different yet.

Much love!

 

[marks]

you prefer the idea

And you choose to impugn my motivations. As if! As if I despise truth! Rubbish!

But I really do want good things, wonderful and holy and righteous things for you!

Much love!