Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

[LoveofTruth]

You cited two verses and assumed the type of baptism in those verses is spirit baptism but gave no proof to back that assumption up.

I think the words "by one Spirit are we all baptized into..."shows it is by the Spirit that immerses us into the body of Christ, or into Christ. Then Jesus said he would baptize us with the Holy Ghost. John said that he baptized with water but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost. So it is not the Holy Ghost that baptizes us with the Holy Ghost it is Jesus. But you must first be in Christ that is done by one Spirit into one body. This is a spiritual thing at salvation, where we put on Christ and have Christ formed in us at the new birth, immersed into him and he in us (John 15 speaks of this inner life of Jesus in us and we in him. They had that in John 15, before pentecost. Many confuse what the new birth is and the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

Paul was under the great commission as all Christians are and the baptism of the great commission is human administered water baptism.

Where do you get that from? show me the word water in Matthew 28. Peter had the Matthew 28 commission given to him to go into all the world and teach all nations. But he didn't understand that part till much later around Acts 10. So it is possible the depth of the baptism in or into the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost was not fully grasped either. Jesu said one time that while he was with the disciples he kept them in the Fathers name. The name represents the character, power life attributes of God. To be immersed into a name or into the power character etc is not an outward symbol of water as I understand from scripture. This is a deep thing.

But later Peter got it I believe, in 1 Peter 3:21, which is not talking about water baptism for salvation, but rather the baptism into Christ as we are risen with him and have a clean conscience by the knowledge and life oChrist risen and risen in us. The 8 souls were saved in the ark as the judgement of water covered the earth, they were raised up above the water into the heavens in the ark, a type of being in Christ raised up.

Paul himself water baptized others, (1 Cor 1:14,16),

He said Christ sent him not to baptize in 1 Cor 1, but to preach the gospel. The gospel that he preached is also in that book 1 Cor 15:1-4 and we see no ordinances in it no water baptism mentioned, no circumcision, no Mosaic law, or customs of the Jews, no Sabbaths or foot washing etc. He mentioned that they heard and believed and had to keep it in memory. If any preach another gospel, such as adding ceremonial works to it or human effort and Mosaic law etc, then they preach another gospel. (Read Galatians 1 for that warning. It is not by works of righteousness that we have done...if we add these dead works to the gospel we make another gospel. 1 Cor 15:1-3 shows clearly what the gospel is and 1 Cor 12:13 shows what the saving baptism is, it is into Christ by One Spirit. Then we are baptized with the Holy Ghost by Jesus and given gifts etc. This only happens in the name of Jesus Christ.

In 1 Cor 1 Paul thanked God that he did so little baptizing. I believe Paul was simply allowing the water baptism as he allowed circumcision of Timothy which he did in Acts 16, to condescend to the weakness of the believers at the time and at the time of reformation and transition which they were going through. The question must be asked, if Paul was not sent to baptize by Christ then why did he do even the little he did? The answer might be in asking why did Paul circumcise Timothy even though he was not sent to circumcise?

he was water baptized himself (Acts 22:16)

Paul was still connected to the Jewish program and the Jews were still under the law and the customs and dietary laws and sacrifices for a long time. I am speaking of Jewish Christians also read Acts 10, 15 and 21. The Jewish believers also tried to keep the whole law and Paul condescended with them to go into the temple and even a sacrifice was going to be offered for them all. This shows that the Jewish issue in Acts is very important to this discussion. We see the Jewish believers doing many things that the gentiles did not need to do and this was even said in Acts 15 and 21. But the Jews still under the law for a long time also followed Johns water baptism for along time and the Halakah law that would have baptized by full immersion a gentile convert and had them circumcised and offer two turtle doves. We know that even Peter was still following the law to some respect in Acts 10 when he said to God, (almost arguing with God) that he had not eaten anything unclean. He also said it was not lawful to eat with a gentile I believe, and that was not the Mosaic law but the Halakah law of the Jewish oral tradition.

This Jewish Gentile aspect is soo often missed by many in this discussion and it is a main area to consider. Why do you think Jesus in Acts one at the very beginning told them that John indeed baptized [past tense] with water, but they should be baptized [future] with the Holy Ghost. He was in effect showing the end of water baptism. But as in some things it was slowly decaying and ready to vanish as the entire old Covenant was (Hebrews 8) . We see in Galatians 2 that Paul said he had the gospel of the uncircumcision and Peter had the gospel of the circumcision. We know that there is only one gospel, but yet we read such verses. It seems that the way the two groups related to the gospel were in a different sphere. And the Jews were in a time of reformation and transition from the old to the new. It does not make sense to bring the Gentiles under the law and then have to have them come out again in the future. Also , when Peter went to the Temple in Acts 2 he was still under the law and his conscience (with knowledge) was not fully understanding yet. Jesus said he had many things to say and to judge of them but they were not able to bear them at that time. But when the Holy Ghost came he would guide them to all truth. It took time to guide the Jewish believers in some areas as we see in scripture. These are clear things no made up speculation. The text of scripture shows this.

and taught water baptism (Rom 6; Col 2).

Prove that Paul is speaking of "water" baptism here. He is not, as I understand from scripture. He is speaking of a deep spiritual inner life with Christ immersed into Christ again, where we put on Christ. The element you are baptized into defines the baptism. Here they were not baptized into water but into Christ. and into his death. Jesus speaks of the seed going into the heart and dying and being buried in us and rising in us and we with that seed as a new creation. This is a powerful new creation in Christ by the Spirit. No mere outward washing or water can achieve this . By grace are we saved through faith . And faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Christ in you is the hope, as scripture shows.

"6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"(Romans 6:2-5 KJV)

And Colossians 2 is also not water baptism as I understand from scripture. It is speaking of the same inner death burial and and resurrection. And a clue to the spiritual aspect and not the physical is in the circumcision made without hands, the inner circumcision of the heart, where the seed Christ can die and be buried and risen with us in the new life. This is a deep spiritual reality of the new birth.

"2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."(Colossians 2:11,12 KJV)

Water baptism has been commanded thereby making it necessary if for no other reason.

no water was commanded as you can see. To add the word water to these text is not right. Jesus said John baptized with "water"..Jesus defined the end of such a baptism. And John was still part of the Old Covenant under the law. These "diverse washings", and carnal ordinances were imposed upon them ( the Jews) until the time of reformation. But they did not go away quickly as we see in Acts 21 etc.

continued...part 2

 

[LoveofTruth]

continued part from part 1....

Water baptism saves (Matt 28:19020; Mk 16:15-16; Acts 2:38; 1 Pet 3:21).

Matthew 28 does not mention water, nor does Mark 16 you added "water to the text". Some places we can assume water and other places not. and 1 Peter 3:21 is not talking about water baptism saving, but rather the immersion ( baptism) into Christ and through faith by the resurrection. This is not a outward washing" as peter says, but the answer of a good conscience by the resurrection of Christ. We see the word "good conscience" here and this means that the conscience ( with knowledge) cannot be clean or perfect by outward washings and carnal ordinances or sacrifices of animals etc. These still needed to be done because the way into the Holiest of all was not known. But now we have a full assurance of hope by the resurrection and the inner reality as we are raised up with Christ to the newness of life. This word conscience is interesting consider the use of it in Hebrews here,

"9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation...

9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"Hebrews 9:8-10,14 KJV)

Paul did not say 'baptized with water' but rather said 'baptized by ONE Spirit' for Paul's point was NOT to stress the element (water) but the agent (Spirit), to show they all equally met the same condition (water baptism) to be in the body as all were bestowed gifts by the same one Spirit....so there as there was unity among gifts there was unity in entering the kingdom regardless of nationality and this was done by the same one Spirit.

You are trying to make the one baptism into two the water and Spirit. But we do not read that in scripture. Jesus shows the distinction of two in Acts 1 and so does John

"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."Acts 1:5 KJV)

"I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."(Mark 1:8 KJV)

Here is an article by a man of the past to consider. He said it well, so I reposted this.

"Obj. As to what is commonly alleged by way of explanation upon the text, that the baptism of water and of the Spirit make up this one baptism, by virtue of the sacramental union.

Answ. I answer, This exposition hath taken place not because grounded upon the testimony of the Scripture but because it wrests the Scripture to make it suit to their principle of water baptism, and so there needs no other reply but to deny it, as being repugnant to the plain words of the text, which saith not that there are two baptisms, to wit, one of water, the other of the Spirit, which do make up one baptism, but plainly, that there is "one baptism," as there is "one faith" and "one God." Now there goeth not two faiths, nor two Gods, nor two Spirits, nor two bodies, whereof the one is outward and elementary and the other spiritual and pure, to the making up of the one faith, the one God, the one body, and the one Spirit; so neither ought there to go two baptisms to make up the one baptism.


Obj. But secondly, if it be said the baptism is but one, whereof water is the one part, to wit, the sign; and the Spirit, the thing signified, the other.

Answ. I answer, this yet more confirmeth our doctrine, for, if water be only the sign, it is not the matter of the one baptism (as shall further hereafter by its definition in Scripture appear), and we are to take the one baptism for the matter of it, not for the sign, or figure and type, that went before, even as where Christ is called the "one offering" in Scripture though he was typified by many sacrifices and offerings under the Law, we understand only by the one offering, his offering himself upon the cross, whereof though those many offerings were figures and types, yet we say not that they go together with that offering of Christ to make up the one offering; so neither, though water baptism was a sign of Christ's baptism, will it follow that it goeth now to make up the baptism of Christ. If any should be so absurd as to affirm that this one baptism here were the baptism of water and not of the Spirit, that were foolishly to contradict the positive testimony of the Scripture, which saith the contrary, as by what followeth will more amply appear.

Secondly, that this one baptism, which is the baptism of Christ, is not a washing with water, appears, first, from the testimony of John, the proper and peculiar administrator of water baptism (Matt. 3:11), "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance; but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire." Here John mentions two manners of baptizings and two different baptisms, the one with water, and the other with the Spirit, the one whereof he was the minister of, the other whereof Christ was the minister of: and such as were baptized with the first were not therefore baptized with the second: "I indeed baptize you, but he shall baptize you." Though in the present time they were baptized with the baptism of water, yet they were not as yet, but were to be, baptized with the baptism of Christ. From all which I thus argue,

Arg. 1. If those that were baptized with the baptism of water were not therefore baptized with the baptism of Christ, then the baptism of water is not the baptism of Christ:"(Robert Barclays Apology chapter 12 concerning baptism)

Jn 3:5 there are two elements in the new birth, 1) Spirit 2) water and both elements are found in 1 Cor 12:13:

Jn 3:5---------Spirit +++++++++++++ water >>>>>>>>> in the kingdom"

No, John 3 speaks of being born again. This is by the Spirit as the context shows. The water relates to natural birth when the water breaks for the woman. We know this because first Jesus said you must be born again, no water or spirit mentioned. Then Nicodemus asked how can a man be born again when he is old, can he ENTER INTO THE MOTHERS WOMB and be born. Jesus then changed his initial words and said you must be born again by water and the spirit. This was answering the question about two different births. The one natural and the other spiritual. Nicodemus, being a Jew may have thought he was saved by simply being part of the natural Israel. But then Jesus defines what he is speaking o here and shows clearly that water refers to the flesh and natural birth and spirit to the inner spiritual life and the new birth given by the Spirit. This again hints to us of the one Spirit by which we are immersed into one body. at new birth.

Consider this verse in John 3 in context and the meaning of it. It is clear to those who have eyes to see or should be.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."(John 3:6 KJV)

Two births mentioned here. that of the flesh (where the water breaks in the woman's womb and the child comes forth) and that of the Spirit which is inward in death burial and resurrection with Christ

Then Jesus goes back to a similar wording of verse 3:3 about being born again and he speaks of the wind that cannot be seen, so is everyone that is born of the spirit. He doesn't mention water here. If water baptism is how you can see a person being born again with the spirit. Then you could see it. But Jesus says

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."(John 3:8 KJV)

 

[LoveofTruth]

continued part 3...

Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, and the Bible does not contradict itself then both verses must express the same idea making it clear that water baptism is the type of baptism under consideration.

You just said water baptism is the type. The type then it is not the substance or reality of the other.

But there is only one way to be saved, by repentance and grace through faith in Gods righteousness which is revealed in jesus Christ who died for our sins , was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures. Then we must walk in faith where Jesus Christ is in us and God works in us through Jesus Christ and makes us perfect unto every good work through jesus Christ. No ceremonies or rituals to save us. No works of the flesh or dead works or ordinances. It is spiritual. God seeks such to worship him in spirit and truth.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think the words "by one Spirit are we all baptized into..."shows it is by the Spirit that immerses us into the body of Christ, or into Christ. Then Jesus said he would baptize us with the Holy Ghost. John said that he baptized with water but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost. So it is not the Holy Ghost that baptizes us with the Holy Ghost it is Jesus. But you must first be in Christ that is done by one Spirit into one body. This is a spiritual thing at salvation, where we put on Christ and have Christ formed in us at the new birth, immersed into him and he in us (John 15 speaks of this inner life of Jesus in us and we in him. They had that in John 15, before pentecost. Many confuse what the new birth is and the baptism with the Holy Ghost.



Where do you get that from? show me the word water in Matthew 28. Peter had the Matthew 28 commission given to him to go into all the world and teach all nations. But he didn't understand that part till much later around Acts 10. So it is possible the depth of the baptism in or into the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost was not fully grasped either. Jesu said one time that while he was with the disciples he kept them in the Fathers name. The name represents the character, power life attributes of God. To be immersed into a name or into the power character etc is nota outward symbol of water as I understand from scripture. This is a deep thing.

But later Peter got it I believe, in 1 Peter 3:21, which is not talking about water baptism for salvation, but rather the baptism into Christ as we are risen with him and have a clean conscience by the knowledge and life oChrist risen and risen in us. The 8 souls were saved in the ark as the judgement of water covered the earth, they were raised up above the water into the heavenlies in the ark, a type of being in Christ raised up.



He said Christ sent him not to baptize in 1 Cor 1, but to preach the gospel. The gospel that he preached is also in that book 1 Cor 15:1-4 and we see no ordinances in it no water baptism mentioned, no circumcision, no Mosaic law, or customs of the Jews, no Sabbaths or foot washing etc. He mentioned that they heard and believed and had to keep it in memory. If any preach another gospel, such as adding ceremonial works to it or human effort and Mosaic law etc, then they preach another gospel. (Read Galatians 1 for that warning. It is not by works of righteousness that we have done...if we add these dead works to the gospel we make another gospel. 1 Cor 15:1-3 shows clearly what the gospel is and 1 Cor 12:13 shows what the saving baptism is, it is into Christ by One Spirit. Then we are baptized with the Holy Ghost by Jesus and given gifts etc. This only happens in the name of Jesus Christ.

In 1 Cor 1 Paul thanked God that he did so little baptizing. I believe Paul was simply allowing the water baptism as he allowed circumcision of Timothy which he did in Acts 16, to condescend to the weakness of the believers at the time and at the time of reformation and transition which they were going through. The question must be asked, if Paul was not sent to baptize by Christ then why did he do even the little he did? The answer might be in asking why did Paul circumcise Timothy even though he was not sent to circumcise?



Paul was still connected to the Jewish program and the Jews were still under the law and the customs and dietary laws and sacrifices for a long time. I am speaking of Jewish Christians also read Acts 10, 15 and 21. The Jewish believers also tried to keep the whole law and Paul condescended with them to go into the temple and even a sacrifice was going to be offered for them all. This shows that the Jewish issue in Acts is very important to this discussion. We see the Jewish believers doing many things that the gentiles did not need to do and this was even said in Acts 15 and 21. But the Jews still under the law for a long time also followed Johns water baptism for along time and the Halakah law that would have baptized by full immersion a gentile convert and had them circumcised and offer two turtle doves. We know that even Peter was still following the law to some respect in Acts 10 when he said to God, (almost arguing with God) that he had not eaten anything unclean. He also said it was not lawful to eat with a gentile I believe, and that was not the Mosaic law but the Halakah law of the Jewish oral tradition.

This Jewish Gentile aspect is soo often missed by many in this discussion and it is a main area to consider. Why do you think jesus in Acts one at the very beginning told them that John indeed baptized [past tense] with water, but they should be baptized [future] with the Holy Ghost. He was in effect showing the end of water baptism. But as in some things it was slowly decaying and ready to vanish as the entire old Covenant was * Hebrews 8) . We see in Galatians 2 that Paul said he had the gospel of the uncircumcision and Peter had the gospel of the circumcision. We know that there is only one gospel, but yet we read such verses. It seems that the way the two groups related to the gospel were in a different sphere. And the Jews were in a time of reformation and transition from the old to the new. It does not make sense to bring the Gentiles under the law and then have to have them come out again in the future. Also , when Peter went to the Temple in Acts 2 he was still under the law and his conscience ( with knowledge) was not fully understanding yet. Jesus said he had many things to say and to judge of them but they were not able to bear them at that time. But when the Holy Ghost came he would guide them to all truth. It took time to guide the Jewish believers in some areas as we see in scripture. These are clear things no made up speculation. The text of scripture shows this.



Prove that Paul is speaking of "water" baptism here. He is not as i understand from scripture. He is speaking of a deep spiritual inner life with Christ immersed into Christ again, where we put on Christ. The element you are baptized into defines the baptism. Here they were not baptized into water but into Christ. and into his death. Jesus speaks of the seed going into the heart and dying and being buried in us and rising in us and we with that seed as a new creation. This is a powerful new creation in Christ by the Spirit. No mere outward washing or water can achieve this . By grace are we saved through faith . And faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Christ in you is the hope, as scripture shows.

"6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"(Romans 6:2-5 KJV)

God recently revealed to me why there appears to be a difference between Matthew 28:19 in baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, vs. the disciples baptizing in the name of Jesus (starting immediately at Pentecost).

The name mentioned in Matthew 28:19 is singular and not plural.
It does not say baptize in the names of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

They were to be baptized in the name (singular). They were to be baptized in that one name that represented all three persons of the Godhead or Trinity. This name (singular) is Jesus Christ. For Jesus is the name above all names.

Philippians 2:9

“Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him,
and given him a name which is above every name:”​

In the man Christ Jesus dwelled the fulness of the Godhead (or Trinity):

Colossians 2:9

“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
​

Why baptize in the name of Jesus?

Philippians 2:11

“And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
​

Blessings be unto you in the Lord.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Hi,

Joel's prophecy, which Peter quotes in Acts 2 and ties directly to the Apostles being baptized with the HS, has been fulfilled with both Jew (Apostles) and Gentile (Cornelius) being baptized with the HS whereby all flesh, Jew and Gentile, have been baptized with the HS meaning Joe's prophecy has been fulfilled therefore baptism with the HS has ended, ceased therefore cannot the one baptism of Eph 4.

Not so, nowhere in scripture do we see the gifts ending for the church.

We see Paul even encourage spiritual gifts for all the Corinthians and in other places as well. Also the apostles and prophets did not cease either, we see this in scripture there were other apostles and prophets after the resurrection.

Scripture warns of those who have a form of godliness but deny the power from such turn away.

The word "power: there is the same word used for the power of the HS in Acts.

Your assumption that all flesh means only a few Jews and Gentiles is not sound and totally against scripture as can be shown.

and the verses some use to try and say the gifts have ceased when that which is perfect has come, are nots rightly understood as well. We can look into that if you want.

 

[LoveofTruth]

@LoveofTruth
Granted, I think looking at the Scriptures more and not making snap judgments on the apostles and what they did is the best thing to do. I have even started to retract my old commentaries on Acts 21.

Hello brother, God bless,

Yes, there are many things in scripture that have been overlooked by some and the situations they apply to and the circumstances. If some just assume (as many do) that if they did it in Acts then we should to", Then they would confuse many issues as we are seeing in this study and talk. They would have to have a temple for all believers to go to, as the Jew did in Acts. They would have to have sacrifices and follow the Mosaic law strictly in all areas and the customs of the Jews, have circumcision, and dietary laws and follow days and times and many aspects of the Old Testament. But if they understood the context and circumstances and the grace of God working with the two groups ( Jews and gentles), to bring them into the one body of Christ and to break down the middle wall , then they might consider what is being said about water baptism.

And I for one never make "snap" judgements on any or the apostles. I have studied and sought Gods direction on these matters and others for many years. I have also wrestled with many things and part of the tension is the conditioning that believers have had from man made traditions and wrong doctrine for centuries. Imagine how the reformers felt when going against the Catholic churches doctrines that were contrary to scripture and the Lords leading? They would ave face similar opposition.

@LoveofTruthI think we should say that they are innocent unless proven guilty (unless there is clear evidence of an incident that they did make a mistake on occasion like with Paul rebuking Peter). In fact, before I drew conclusions on Acts 21 in that Paul made a mistake. Now, I am not so sure. Paul could have been trying to be like a Jew to win the Jews (and he may not have regarded these animal sacrifices as salvific). It’s easy to throw down the hammer of judgment and condemn the apostles (without clear evidence), or it’s easy to say that the Jewish apostles were an exception to the rule of being okay with God even though they may have been justified by the Law (Which Paul condemned). So I don’t see Galatians 5:4 as having an exception as being okay for anyone. Neither am I saying that the Jewish apostles were condemned just because they kept the Law. Just because one keeps the Law does not mean they are doing it for salvific reasons. We see this with Paul having Timothy circumcised (even though Paul says at another point to the Galatian believers that if they seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit them nothing - Galatians 5:2)..

I don't see the apostles as sinning in these areas so much although we do read of some areas of blame in some verses. But some may have been sinning among the believers in Jerusalem and in a wrong understanding f the law and justification. I see Paul writing much in the NT on these matters to help others and warn some. I see God working with them in the time of reformation and transition from the Old to the New. Guided daily and yearly by the Holy Ghost as they walked with God. God will always correct believers and some things take time to see and understand.

And I mentioned how Paul seems to be saying that when a believer came out of the bondage of the law and OT requirements and was free in that respect, then they knowingly went back under the law and circumcision that he then says they are fallen from grace and Christ would profit them nothing. He mentions then they would be a debtor to do the whole law. The

@LoveofTruthMy goal is not to judge the apostles or God’s people without Scripture making it clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that they did something wrong for sure.

I do not seek to judge any either. I am not even saying that Peter was wrong in many things he did. Misunderstanding or lack of discernment in a certain area is allowed as we learn from God and grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Paul says that some who were weak in the faith did eat only herbs but others who were strong could eat all things (Romans 14). When he said who are we to judge another mans servant. But scripture shows clearly ( to me at least in this area) that they did have issues with the law still and the customs and the OT was slowly fading away and decaying and ready to vanish. So scripture shows us that some things are beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I believe part of the struggle in these areas is not from what the scripture clearly says rightly interpreted in the spirit, but from the traditions of man and the centuries old teachings of error that have been taught to many. Some will hear what I share about water baptism and the issues around this and they will have no scriptural correction ( except using Acts as they try to do and say we need to do what the Jewish believers did) but the argument from the number of people who don't see it. Or they will say how come all churches haven't seen this for centuries, and only a few have? they argue from numbers over the few or from the tradition of their large man made denominations etc. I hear often statement like "so you are right and all the theologians are wrong from history"that kind of stuff.

Imagine how the early apostles felt when the massive weight of Jewish groups and history seemed to be against them. Or how the reformers felt when they saw in scripture things that were not seen for centuries. This argument is not a sound one. I stick with the Spirit of God leading and revealing things to me through the scriptures and other brothers in Christ and direct revelation. This is how we are to walk as I can show scripture to prove so.

@LoveofTruthI say this because imagine if we are falsely judging the apostles when they are innocent? Imagine the Lord being upset with us over that?
Even in our court of law, one is innocent until proven guilty.

I would never seek to falsely judge the apostles. Scripture shows examples to us of when they sinned and when they were in ignorance and fear and misunderstanding. We need only to use scripture in this area guided by the Spirit. Peter for example was called a child of the devil for trying to tell Jesus not to go to the cross, he denied Jesus three times with a curse, he was to be blamed when Paul wrote of this in the book of Galatians, he was arguing with God over eating unclean animals and going to the gentiles, he doubted when walking on the water etc. But we see also the many mighty things he did in faith and the love he had and I would never judge Peter I seek only to understand the issues they were going through and why they did some things that seem contrary to the NT. I found some of the answers in the Jewish and gentile issues in the NT. The struggling with the law and OT and following still for a long time many of the Mosaic law requirements and continuing with the temple system and priest etc. There is no denying these things in scripture. It doesn't matter if many over the centuries have not seen these things. We must be faithful to speak and share what we have seen and be open to correction f we are in error. But the correction must be in the spirit directly or through the body and not contradict scripture.

If we are in a clear conscience and if we are led by the Spirit and according to scripture, we can have safety at least knowing we do not sin knowingly. If we are in error God will reveal even this to us as we press on in faith and a good conscience.

@LoveofTruthFor me: It has to be clearly written and there has to be a good case made to establish truth. It would be better to say… we don’t know then to come to wrong conclusions. It is very well possible that we may not know and we look through a glass darkly.

In your case this is where you are now and I have gone though that struggle for years. The more I speak of this topic and study it the stronger the case becomes. Truth that is sound cannot be shaken. But I don;t believe I have made wrong conclusions according to the sound scriptures I show. Again, we have to examine if our bias or our doubt is caused by others and man made traditions and fear of going against the larger group etc. We must follow the truth even if none do and go where it leads us.

 

[LoveofTruth]

No offense, but this is how I see your approach here:

Baptism is what we must do as a part of our living out our faith (Which can be in the same day or at a later point in time).

Hello again, God bless,

I know you seem to say this possibly based on your understanding of faith and works. But we see no direct scripture saying that. You are assuming that based on your understanding of works and faith (as I see from your discussions)

Some says you must be water baptized to be saved and they try to use scripture to say so ( though I believe wrongly interpreted as can be shown) Other say you do not need water baptism at all, it was part of the Ot and the NT is different we are baptized into Christ though all time and the water was a remnant of the OT and specifically Johns water baptism, that Jesus said was in the past Acts 1 etc etc

and then there is your view that is similar to the many believers who say you must be water baptized, but it is not for salvation or initial salvation, but you must do it, yet if you don't well we will doubt your salvation, but its not for salvation, but you must do it to be obedient or your not going to be saved, but its not for salvation etc etc etc

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So do you believe true genuine Christians are made to drink of one Spirit today according to 1 Corinthians 12:13?

This is not baptism with the HS.

--baptism with the HS was a prophecy of Joel that was fulfilled, ended, ceased some 2000 years ago
--those Corinthians were water baptized, the one baptism of Eph 4 for Paul water baptized some himself, 1 Cor 1:14,16
--the baptism of the great commission was commanded, for all creatures, saves, is how Christians are made and lasts till the end of time none of which is true of baptism with the HS making it impossible to be the one baptism of Eph 4.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is not baptism with the HS.

--baptism with the HS was a prophecy of Joel that was fulfilled, ended, ceased some 2000 years ago
--those Corinthians were water baptized, the one baptism of Eph 4 for Paul water baptized some himself, 1 Cor 1:14,16
--the baptism of the great commission was commanded, for all creatures, saves, is how Christians are made and lasts till the end of time none of which is true of baptism with the HS making it impossible to be the one baptism of Eph 4.

So you believe all believers today are capable of drinking of one Spirit today?

Please answer with a yes, or no.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

My apologies if my words were not as precise. I was speaking in reference to obedience as in our doing something like a work or in doing a particular laborious action, ceremony, etcetera (As a part of the Sanctification of the Spirit to live a holy life - after we are saved by God's grace). I was not referring to how we need to “obey from the heart” by believing the doctrine of the good news message (Romans 6:17).

I believe that to “obey from the heart” that form of doctrine delivered to us in Romans 6:17 is talking about our belief in Jesus for salvation and our belief in the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

So I see a significant difference between...

#1. “Obeying from the heart the doctrine” by believing in Jesus for salvation and believing the gospel message (Initial faith),

vs.
​

#2. Obeying by our performance in doing a laborious actions, works, etcetera. (Continued faith, i.e. To live out your faith).​

One is a belief (Which can include seeking God's mercy), and the second is performance of works (Which is one aspect of abiding in the Sanctification of the Spirit to live a holy life). There is a stark contrast between the two.

While you may not be making this claim, can we boast in our obedience to God in that we ultimately save ourselves? (Note: Yes, I am aware of Acts 2:40).

I don’t believe so.

First, take under consideration that grace needs to be shown to us first before we can respond or obey from the heart by believing.

Isaiah 26:10 (NKJV) says:

“Let grace be shown to the wicked, Yet he will not learn righteousness;…”​

As we can see in this above verse in Isaiah, we learn that grace is shown to the wicked and yet the wicked will not learn righteousness (Which describes those who either reject Jesus for salvation in this life and or those who call themselves Christians but they believe they can set out to sin on some level and think they are still saved somehow; i.e. Meaning: They think Jesus magically paid for all their future sin somehow when that is simply not the case). Meaning, we did not obey in order for grace to happen. Grace was shown to us first before we even obeyed from the heart so as to believe in Jesus for salvation.

Second, just so that you may know, I am not a Calvinist and I actually find all five points of Calvinism to be extremely unbiblical and wrong in many ways. So this means that I do believe we have free will to accept or reject God’s loving offer (or free gift of eternal life). This gift is Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son (John 3:16).

But when we do respond (obey from the heart) by believing Jesus for eternal life in our Initial Salvation, I believe God is still one step ahead of us in our obedience. His grace is one step ahead of us in our obedience.

Take under consideration the following truths in Scripture:



#7. God illuminates the understanding of His Word in order to reach us. God's Word (Scripture) needs to break us. God's Word (Scripture) is like a fire and like a hammer that breaks a rock into pieces (Jeremiah 23:29). Jesus said His words are spirit, and they are life (John 6:63). We cannot obey without God illuminating of His Word to us. We could have read Scripture a ton of times before, but unless God illuminates His Word to us at the right moment in our life, we will never see. We see this burning of the Word from Jeremiah 23:29 with the two men on the road to Emmaus. Luke 24:32 says, “And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?” The Scriptures were opened to them. The meaning was closed before, and now it was opened to them. The Word (Scripture) was illuminated to them by the Lord Jesus Christ. All true believers needed to have this road to Emmaus moment. This is being born again by the Communicated Word of God (1 Peter 1:23). This is what it means to be born again of water. For Ephesians 5:25-27 makes it clear that Christ gave Himself so that He can sanctify us with the washing of the WATER of the Word so that He might present to Himself a church that is holy, and without blemish, and spot. This means you cannot obey God without this illumination of His Word. God needed to show you a time in your life by His grace and mercy the meaning of His Word for you to respond.

---Rom 6:3-7 is talking about water baptism where one is "buried" in a watery grave, then "raised up from" that water grave to walk in newness of life.

--as I posted earlier from 2 Thess 2:8 one must OBEY to not be in flaming fire eliminating the idea that faith only can save. One must "obey the gospel of Christ" and in water baptism per Rom 6, one dies to sin, there is a "death" of the old man of sin, then he is "buried" and then "raised up from" that water grave to walk in newness of life. There is no death burial, resurrection in faith only, in baptism with the HS, in saying a sinner's prayer therefore one has NOT obeyed the gospel unless/until one obediently submits himself to God in water baptism where God then does the work of removing the body of sin, Col 2.

from Rom 6, one must be "dead" in order to be freed from sin/justified and this death occurs when one obeys by submitting to God in water baptism:

verse 7: ------ dead >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justified/freed from sin
vs 17-18 ------obey from the heart >>>>>>>>>> justified/freed from sin

It is water baptism where one becomes dead and it takes obeying from the heart to be water baptized where by one dies to sin, is buried and resurrected.

===============================================

Tts 3:11 God's grace hath appeared to all men and that grace appeared in the form of Christ dying for the sins of mankind yet for men to receive that grace and be saved men must first obey Christ (Heb 5:9). There is not a single account of a disobedient, rebellious reprobate unconditionally receiving grace/salvation from God. If God's grace were UNconditional then ALL MEN would UNconditionally be saved but all men will not be saved (Mt 7:13) for all men will not obey Christ. So even though Christ died for sinners, sinners still remained lost sinners until those sinners choose to obey Christ then they take advantage of what Christ's death offers them, that being, remission of sins by His shed blood. Every sinner was not universally, UNconditionally saved simply because Christ died. Heb 2 Christ tasted death for "every man" yet every man will not be saved for every man will not obey Christ.

================================================

I agree there is no such thing as original sin, hence all babies are born without sin, they are born innocent, neutral, safe therefore are not candidates for water baptism.

================================================

John 1:13 does NOT mean God alone unconditionally, capriciously chooses who will be born again and who will be lost. Such an idea makes God culpable for those who are lost and makes God a respecter of persons as to whom He chooses to save versus those He does not choose.

The context leading up to verse 13 is Christ came to His own creation and His own creation rejected Him, v10. What is worse, in v11 Christ came to His own chosen people the Jews, and they rejected Him. Yet in v12 we find who the ones who are saved....the ones saved are the ones who received(believed) Christ, they are the one given the power to become a son of God. How one is saved per v12 is contrasted to how one is NOT saved in verse 13
"not of blood" not of blood means the physical birth does not make one a son of God. The Jews wrongly tho't just being born a descendant of Abraham was sufficient to be saved.
"nor of the will of the flesh" the Jews tho't they could of their own will be justified by keeping the OT law perfectly. In Rom 4:1 Paul asked what did Abraham find according to the flesh, that is, what favor did Abraham find with God by his own efforts? None.
"nor of the will of man" the Jews tho't they could replace the will of God with their own will/their own traditions and could therefore be saved by keeping those man made traditions.

John is simply contrasting how one is saved by believing which gives one the power to become a son of God versus the wrong way men have tried to find salvation apart from God's plan.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So you believe all believers today are capable of drinking of one Spirit today?

Please answer with a yes, or no.

No,

The Corinthians were divided over who had baptized them in chapter 1. And now in the context of 1 Corinthians chapter 12, the Corinthians were dividing themselves over the various miraculous gifts they received from the Spirit and some were claiming some gifts were superior to other gifts. But Paul brought unity to them showing that all miraculous gifts come from the same ONE Spirit so there should be no divisions, rivalries over the gifts among the Corinthians. Just as Paul brought unity by showing how they had all been baptized by ONE Spirit (agent) Who had instructed them through inspired teachers as Paul to be water (element) baptized into one body.

No one today has any miraculous gift given them by the HS nor has anyone today been baptized with the HS.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I see it like this:

Jn 6:27-29 does NOT refer to a work God does but is speaking of a work, the work of believing, that God has given MAN to do.

In this context, Jesus gave those people the work of believing for them to do.

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jesus plainly tells them to WORK for the food that endures unto everlasting life. Jesus so to WORK, He did not say have faith only.
Yet note this important point:
It says God GIVES the gift of everlasting life...."give" means it's a free gift yet one must WORK in order to receive this free gift God GIVES. Proving once again God's free gift of salvation comes with CONDITIONS and one must WORK to meet those conditions and meeting the necessary conditions cannot, does not earn the free gift.

"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" They asked what work THEY must do. Jesus did NOT tell them do not works just believe only as so many false teachers today would have told those people.

Instead, Jesus gave them work to do in v29, He gave them the work of believing for believing is a work it is not just a mental assent of the mind.
And this work of believing come from God, God is the source of this work that has been given to man to do for God certainly does not do the work of believing for men while men sit doing nothing.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No offense, but this is how I see your approach here:

I think you are confusing situations of God delivering His people because of their faithfulness to God vs. God's grace.

Grace is unmerited favor. While I believe the atonement continues to be applied by our continued faithfulness (1 John 1:7), I don't believe that our receiving the atonement was based upon us doing a laborious action or work. Christ died for us while we were yet sinners (Romans 5:8). Cornelius was able to receive the Spirit before he was water baptized (See Acts 10), and the Spirit is our downpayment of our inheritance of the promise (See: Ephesians 1:14-16). I did not have to be water baptized to be initially saved by God's grace through faith. I believe water baptism is something that follows after we are saved initially by God's grace. Baptism is what we must do as a part of our living out our faith (Which can be in the same day or at a later point in time). Paul said to just believe on Jesus for salvation to the jailor. Yes, he was later baptized but that is not what he told him to do so as to be saved. Also, Paul makes a distinction between the gospel, and baptism in 1 Corinthians 1:17. So they are not the same thing (if that is what you are suggesting). The belief we are to have in our Initial Salvation is compared to the belief that Abraham had when he believed the promise of God on his descendants being like the stars of the sky (See: Romans 4 and Genesis 15:1-6). This belief was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. For the promise of inheritance came not by the Law of Moses but by the promise of Abraham by faith (Romans 4:13-14) (Galatians 3:18). Do you have the same faith like that of Abraham? The faith that was accounted to him for righteousness was believing the promise.

When it comes to salvation, God's grace has ALWAYS been conditional upon man's obedience. This is why there is not a single verse that teaches "doing nothing" saves. Not a single example of disobedient, rebellious, reprobates who uncnditionally recevie grace. Grace is receoived by only those who obey:

Acts 2:38 repent and be baptized (obey) >>>>>>>>>> then receive grace/remission of sins
Jn 3:16 believe (obey) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then receive grace/not perish/saved
Lk 13:3 repent (obey) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then receive grace/not perish/saved
Rom 10:9 confess with the mouth (obey) >>>>>>>>> then receive grace/salvation
Mk 16:16 believe & be baptized (obey) >>>>>>>>>> then receive grace/saved
Rom 6:17,18---obey from the heart >>>>>>>>>>>>> then receive grace/freed from sin

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I think the words "by one Spirit are we all baptized into..."shows it is by the Spirit that immerses us into the body of Christ, or into Christ. Then Jesus said he would baptize us with the Holy Ghost. John said that he baptized with water but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost. So it is not the Holy Ghost that baptizes us with the Holy Ghost it is Jesus. But you must first be in Christ that is done by one Spirit into one body. This is a spiritual thing at salvation, where we put on Christ and have Christ formed in us at the new birth, immersed into him and he in us (John 15 speaks of this inner life of Jesus in us and we in him. They had that in John 15, before pentecost. Many confuse what the new birth is and the baptism with the Holy Ghost.



Where do you get that from? show me the word water in Matthew 28. Peter had the Matthew 28 commission given to him to go into all the world and teach all nations. But he didn't understand that part till much later around Acts 10. So it is possible the depth of the baptism in or into the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost was not fully grasped either. Jesu said one time that while he was with the disciples he kept them in the Fathers name. The name represents the character, power life attributes of God. To be immersed into a name or into the power character etc is not an outward symbol of water as I understand from scripture. This is a deep thing.

But later Peter got it I believe, in 1 Peter 3:21, which is not talking about water baptism for salvation, but rather the baptism into Christ as we are risen with him and have a clean conscience by the knowledge and life oChrist risen and risen in us. The 8 souls were saved in the ark as the judgement of water covered the earth, they were raised up above the water into the heavens in the ark, a type of being in Christ raised up.



He said Christ sent him not to baptize in 1 Cor 1, but to preach the gospel. The gospel that he preached is also in that book 1 Cor 15:1-4 and we see no ordinances in it no water baptism mentioned, no circumcision, no Mosaic law, or customs of the Jews, no Sabbaths or foot washing etc. He mentioned that they heard and believed and had to keep it in memory. If any preach another gospel, such as adding ceremonial works to it or human effort and Mosaic law etc, then they preach another gospel. (Read Galatians 1 for that warning. It is not by works of righteousness that we have done...if we add these dead works to the gospel we make another gospel. 1 Cor 15:1-3 shows clearly what the gospel is and 1 Cor 12:13 shows what the saving baptism is, it is into Christ by One Spirit. Then we are baptized with the Holy Ghost by Jesus and given gifts etc. This only happens in the name of Jesus Christ.

Paul water baptized some Corinthians himself, 1 Cor 1:14,16 they were not baptized by the HS.

Jn 3:5 ----------- Spirit ++++++++++ water >>>>>>>>>>>> in the kingdom
1 Cor 12:13------Spirit ++++++++++ baptized >>>>>>>>>>>. in the body

Since there is but one way to be saved/born again, then both verses say the exact same thing and it is clear water baptism is the element. Those Corinthians were divided so in order to being unity Paul showed them by ONE Spirit (agent) Who taught them to be water baptized by the ONE spirit inspiring men as Paul to teach them to be water baptized to be in the body. That ONE Spirit today in His written inspired word (the agency) teaches men to be water (the element) baptized with water being the element men are baptized with, hence "born of water", Jn 3:5.

====================

The great commission Mt 28:19-20 had humans/disciples water baptizing men as Phillip water baptized the eunuch. Men cannot baptism with the HS only the Lord can do that, Matt 3:11. Again, this baptism of the great commission, which is the one baptism of Eph 4, is commanded, for all creatures, is how Christians are made, it saves and lasts till the end of time eliminating baptism with the HS for NONE of these things are true of baptism with the HS.

===================

1 Cor the reason Paul said he baptized a few was NOT because water baptism is not necessary but the reason he did give was because "Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name." Instead of all following Christ, those Corinthians were dividing themselves over who baptized them, (v12) hence Paul did not baptize many himself because he wanted to avoid making those he baptized 'Paulites'...he wanted them to follow Christ. Paul DID WATER baptize men per the great commission as I just posted about which had humans/disciles water baptizing other men, hence water is the element used in 1 Cor 12:13 but the SPirit was the agent in teaching those Corinthians thru Paul to be water baptized.

1 Cor 1:13
"Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

Paul's point is one cannot be "of Christ" unless 2 things are true;
1) Christ must have been crucified for you
2) you must be baptized in the name of Christ.

Heb 2, Christ died for all men yet all men will not be saved for all men will not be "of Christ" for all men will not be water baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins (Acts 2:38 cf Acts 10:47-48). Baptism with the HS is not said to be "in the name of Christ" only water baptism is in the name of Christ, only water baptism saves. men can water baptism, water baptism is how Christians are made, water baptism lasts till the end of time per the great commission.

==========================

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

Matt 3:11 John is not promising any of those he was speaking to then nor anyone today that Christ would baptize them with the HS. Both pronouns "you" in this verse are used to announce the TYPE of baptism John baptized with versus the types of baptisms Christ would baptize with. That means the second use of the pronoun "you" does not refer to anyone today no more than the first use of the pronoun 'you'...neither "you" refers to anyone today though sime try to conveniently make themselves the second 'you' with no proof.

So we cannot know from the context of Mt 3:11 who the "you" is that will be baptized with the HS. But we can look at Acts 1:1-5 at the fulfillment of John's words where Christ was with His Apostles and promise THEM ALONE that they would be baptized with the HS. Christ never made this promise to anyone but the Apostles in fulfilling His promise He would send the APOSTLES the Comforter.

So this is why there is not one verse that commands anyone today to be baptized with the HS for it was PROMISED to the Apostles. Promises cannot be obeyed nor can a promise be fulfilled to us today whom the promise was not made.

============================

Col 2, speaks of a literal burial from which one is raised up from, water baptism, the human administered water baptism of the great commission. The passage speaks of a circumcision made without hands but says NOTHING of a baptism made without hands. Those who obediently obey God's command to be water baptized, then and only then in water baptism dos God do the work of circumcision in removing the body of sin, a circumcision made without hands.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Not so, nowhere in scripture do we see the gifts ending for the church.

We see Paul even encourage spiritual gifts for all the Corinthians and in other places as well. Also the apostles and prophets did not cease either, we see this in scripture there were other apostles and prophets after the resurrection.

Scripture warns of those who have a form of godliness but deny the power from such turn away.

The word "power: there is the same word used for the power of the HS in Acts.

Your assumption that all flesh means only a few Jews and Gentiles is not sound and totally against scripture as can be shown.

and the verses some use to try and say the gifts have ceased when that which is perfect has come, are nots rightly understood as well. We can look into that if you want.

Acts 2 the Apostles were baptized with the HS and Peter ties it directly with Joel's prophecy..."this (apostles baptized with the HS) is that (Joel's prophecy)". Joel prophesied Gods' Spirit would be poured out upon ALL FLESH. All flesh does not mean every single person universally but they saw all flesh.mankind in 2 groups, Jew and Gentile. The only 2 places in the NT baptism with the HS occurs is with the apostles Acts 2 who were Jews and Cornelius Acts 10 a Gentile, therefore all flesh, Jew and Gentile had God's spirit poured out fulfilling, ending Joel's prophecy.
Therefore Joel's prophecy is NOT connected to anyone today. If Joel's prophecy was not fulfilled by the Lord, then the ENTIRE OT Law of Moses is still in effect today, right now, every jot and tittle of it.


People today make CLAIMS they have been baptized with the HS and perform miraculous signs but not according to the Bible can they back those baseless claims.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

continued part 3...



You just said water baptism is the type. The type then it is not the substance or reality of the other.

But there is only one way to be saved, by repentance and grace through faith in Gods righteousness which is revealed in jesus Christ who died for our sins , was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures. Then we must walk in faith where Jesus Christ is in us and God works in us through Jesus Christ and makes us perfect unto every good work through jesus Christ. No ceremonies or rituals to save us. No works of the flesh or dead works or ordinances. It is spiritual. God seeks such to worship him in spirit and truth.

2 Thess 1:8 says those who OBEY NOT will be in flaiming fire which makes OBEDIENCE necessary to being saved, NOT faith only.

One must OBEY the gospel of Christ according to this verse to be saved/not be in flaming fire. Water baptism has been commanded so it can be obeyed, baptism with the HS has not been commanded to anyone today so it cannot be obeyed.

----2 Thess 1:8 says one must obey the gospel of Christ.
----the gospel of Christ is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, 1 Cor 15:1-4
How does one obey these historical events of Christ's death burial and resurrection?
----Rom 6 in water baptism the old man of sins DIES, one is BURIED in a watery grave from which one is RAISED UP FROM to walk in newness of life.
---so there is a death burial and resurrection that takes place in water baptism thereby making water baptism the only way one obeys the gospel of Christ. There is no death, burial and resurrection in faith only nor with baptism with the HS nor in saying a sinner's prayer
---2 thess 1:8 along with the great commission completely eliminates baptism with the HS being the one baptism of Eph 4. In Acts 8 the SPirit did not baptize the eunuch but sent for Phillip to water baptize the eunuch. The Spirit was the agent and water is the element men are baptized in per 1 Cor 12:13. No need for Phillip is spirit baptism is the one baptism of Eph 4. The eunuch was not baptized with the HS but water baptized having his sins remitted per Acts 2:38 and went on his way rejoicing.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Acts 2 the Apostles were baptized with the HS and Peter ties it directly with Joel's prophecy..."this (apostles baptized with the HS) is that (Joel's prophecy)". Joel prophesied Gods' Spirit would be poured out upon ALL FLESH. All flesh does not mean every single person universally but they saw all flesh.mankind in 2 groups, Jew and Gentile.

The prophecy began at Pentecost and will continue to be ongoing until Christ return. There are other parts of the prophecy that have not happened yet, as we read

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."

None of these things after verse 39 have happened yet, so they are future which brings the prophecy into the future and an ongoing fulfillment in a broader way. This would mean that none of the gifts given are to end until Christ comes back. We read of sons and daughter prophesying. We see prophecy all through the Book of Acts and in Corinthians and other places. Paul even encourages all believers to seek to prophesy. if it was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost and none were to do any more after that then you confound your doctrine by many other scriptures where all are encouraged to prophesy.

"Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy." (1 Corinthians 14:1 KJV)

Peter also said "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh..."(Acts 2:17 KJV). The "last days" we are still in. These last days refer to the last days before Christ comes. John the apostle also uses a similar an expression saying we are in the last time. He wrote this way after pentecost and the words of Peter, consider

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."(1 John 2:18 KJV)

We read of the last days in other places which are removed in time from the day of pentecost

2 Tim 3:1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come."

2 Pet 3:3 "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,"

Joel 2:11 is still future also as part of the prophecy

"And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?"(Joel 2:11)

We also read of Israel being converted gathered and other things, which had not happened yet

"2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
2:14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
2:17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?"(Joel 2:13-17 KJV)

So the fulfillment of the prophecy began at Pentecost and is ongoing to the future.

Joel prophesied Gods' Spirit would be poured out upon ALL FLESH. All flesh does not mean every single person universally but they saw all flesh.mankind in 2 groups, Jew and Gentile.

I don't agree with you here according to scripture. We see the Holy Ghost poured out on all believing Jews and gentiles and Samaritans also in Acts. We see pPaul encourage all believers to seek to prophesy and other spiritual gifts. We see the expression all flesh used in ways that can only mean every human being. Now when I say all flesh having the Spirit poured upon them, I am referring to those who have faith. Jesus said the Holy Ghost is given to those who ask (in faith).

Consider the "all flesh" expression as it has been used. Snd God does not contradict himself or say one thing and mean a different thing. God is the one who gave prophecy .

Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth."

Was "all flesh" here only a small number or a certain select group? No

Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die."

Was "all flesh" here only a select group and not referring to all humanity (the faithful in the ark excluded)

Num 27:16 Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,"

Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The only 2 places in the NT baptism with the HS occurs is with the apostles Acts 2 who were Jews and Cornelius Acts 10 a Gentile, therefore all flesh, Jew and Gentile had God's spirit poured out fulfilling, ending Joel's prophecy.

Not true, again, consider your correction from scripture here,

"8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,"(Acts 8:14-18 KJV)


Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

"Utter most part of the Earth" shows the future extent of the Holy Ghost power and gifts given. This is for all believers.


Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."


Act 13:52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost."


Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

This was many years after Pentecost.

People today make CLAIMS they have been baptized with the HS and perform miraculous signs but not according to the Bible can they back those baseless claims.

I, and many believers have experienced these wondrous things. The testimonies would be too long to speak of here. But all things are still among the saints today, in various measures.

 

[quietthinker]

Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?
I don't know anyone who can afford the Whiskey!

 

[LoveofTruth]

2 Thess 1:8 says those who OBEY NOT will be in flaiming fire which makes OBEDIENCE necessary to being saved, NOT faith only.

All believers obey the gospel by daily dying with Christ and being buried with him and rising with him to walk in the Spirit in the newness of life as God works in them to will and to do and to make them perfect unto every good work, working in them that which is well pleasing through Jesus Christ. to obey the gospel is to walk inwardly with the Lord and to as Paul says, picking up your cross daily, denying ungodliness and worldly lust to live soberly righteously and godly. This is what the grace of God working in us teaches us. This is not a ceremonial; type that we are bound in. But the liberty of the Spirit.

The gospel is 1 Cor 15:1-4, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, that he was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures.

This gospel is how we are saved. But when we believe we enter into the power of the gospel and we are crucified with Christ , buried with him and risen with him. This is a real spiritual reality in our new life in Christ. not a outward ceremony. This is how we obey the gospel. Paul touches on this here and in other places, consider,


4:10 "Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body."
4:11 "For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh."

The obedience of faith and yielding to the leading of the Spirit is part of the new creation in Christ we walk in the spirit and the fruit of the spirit is manifest in our life. It is spiritual which reflects in our daily life. This is not water baptism.

Foe example one of the fruit of the Spirit is love. But love can be shown in endless ways. It is not just one thing we do. Also the work is worked by love. Faith which worketh by love. This love of God is shed abroad in our heart by the Holy Ghost. Paul says by faith we enter into this grace and then the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts. This entering INTO the grace is as I understand the immersion INTO Christ and the grace that saves. By faith we enter into this.

To abide in Christ is by faith. Then the Lord works in us and we will him in the new creation. Yes we do things, for we can do all things through Christ. But the works are from the Spirit and reflect in our life. It is not a dead work r a type or shadow or ceremony that is the fruit. Water baptism was part of the Old Testament and particularly emphasized with John who baptized with water. This was to pass away and fade away with the OT. But it took time do do so and many clung to these things for a long time and even today do. They do not see the Jewish issue and the struggle of the OT and Mosaic law that they were dealing with.

consider this kind of obedience

Rom 16:26 "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.