Why do Catholics…

[BreadOfLife]

Honestly, that sounds like a stretch to me.
It's just plain ignorance and meaningless doctrine, which the Catholic leadership traps and exploits people with. And that's what the real danger is about it.

Theyn YOU differ with MOST Protestants that I have debated here who call it "Idolatry" to worship a piece of bread.
I completely agree with them - anbd so does Scripture.

That's why we don't worship bread - but the Sacramental Body, Blood, Sould and divinity of Jesus Christ.
The Early Church believed in this Biblical and Apostolic teaching - and were MANY were martyred for it.

These are the giants of the faith who passed on the teachings of the Apostles down to us - but according to YOUR logic - they're all languishiung in HELL for worshipping a piece of bread. And it tookyour bickering Protestant Fathers (many of whom ALSO worshipped the Eucharist) to set the record "straight" . . .

Ignatius of Antioch
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these, but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported) how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life — flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord and is in fact a member of him? (Against Heresies 5:2 [A.D. 189]).

Augustine
I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord's table, which you now look upon and of which you last night were made participants. You ought to know that you have received what you are going to receive, and what you ought to receive daily. That bread which you see on the altar having been sanctified by the word of God is the body of Christ, That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

What you see is the bread and the chalice, that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith, yet faith does not desire instruction (ibid. 272).

 

[RedFan]

Your are correct.
There is NO "Roman" Catholic Church.

"Roman" or "Latim" simply refers to name of the largest Liturgical Rite of the Catholic Church. There are about TWENTY, which in clude the Melkite, Maronite, Byzantine, Anticcjan, Coptic, etc.
We are the ONE Catholic Church - and ALL of these Liturgical Rites are in FULL Communion.

Ignatius was talking about THIS Church. DON'T believe me?
Asl yourself the following:
Does YOUR sect -
- Follow your bishop, eas obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father??
- Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles??
- Give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God??
- Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction??
- Recognize that the sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him?? -- CALL itself, the "Catholic Church"??

That's what I thought . . .

What exactly did you think? No answers to the questions have been posted!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Back to front...
The "right team"? What kind of foolishness is that? We are all on the same team. It's you Catholics who have decided that there are different "teams", but Scripture says that the church -- all believers -- are the body of Christ.
andYour comment about all Christians going to hell for idolatry is total nonsense. It's a horrible belief that the Catholic denomination decides who is going to hell and who isn't. The Catholic denomination, from the (unScriptural) Pope on down, is NOT and never will be God!!!

The bread and wine are -- ready??? -- bread and wine. They are symbols of the body and blood of Jesus; they are not Him. Jesus said to eat the bread and drink the wine to remember Him. a) He never preached cannibalism and b) shared the bread and wine with Judas. By your false doctrine, Judas became one with Jesus, therefore, Jesus betrayed Himself!!!

Finally, what right does the Catholic denomination have to deny the bread and wine to non-Catholics? Are you playing God???

Sooooo, with ONE breath, you call it "noonsense" that I pointed out that most Protestanets believe that the Catholic adoration of the Eucharist is IDOLATRY.
And in the NEXT breath - you imply that it mpost certainly IS idolatry because it is "just bread and wine".

Do you believe that idolators will share in the Kingdom of Heaven?
Yoiu can't have it BOITH ways, my hypocritical friend . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

What exactly did you think? No answers to the questions have been posted!

Unless ALL of these things pertain to YOUR sect - you are NOT the Church being discussed by Ignatius.
We can check EVERY box on his list.

 

[RedFan]

Unless ALL of these things pertain to YOUR sect - you are NOT the Church being discussed by Ignatius.
We can check EVERY box on his list.

So can I. I'm Episcopalian.

 

[Jim B]

Bread is bread and wine is wine. You can believe anything that you want about them, but that doesn't change what they are.

Jesus said to eat the bread and drink the wine to remember Him. That clearly means that they are not Him, but objects to recall His life and the New Covenant.

I have pictures of family members that have died, but those photos are not those people. I remember them by looking at those photos. That is clearly what Jesus meant when he said "do this in remembrance of me".

 

[BreadOfLife]

So can I. I'm Episcopalian.

Yes, but history tells us the origins of your church didn't come about until the 16th century.

 

[Philip James]

Oh, good grief! Why are you adding this junk to the discussion?

Catholics are going to hell because they think justification/salvation is a payment owed them for the performance of righteous work, not because of their ridiculous beliefs about the Elements. Their ridiculous beliefs about Mary and the Communion elements, for example, are really just a result of their Spirit-less, erroneous beliefs about salvation. IOW, Catholics aren't saved in the first place to even know the truth about these matters that they have twisted into Catholic mythological fantasies. I'm speaking generally, of course. I do believe there may be a scant few who attend Catholic churches that know that salvation is a gift given on the basis of faith in God's forgiveness, not as a debt owed for religious performance.

What a pack of lies..

No, the CATHOLICS are idiots for thinking Jesus was saying you will literally eat his flesh and his blood, instead of what he actually meant by his blood and body being real food (John 6:55).

There is not one 2000 year old apostolic community that agrees with you..

I guess the apostles must have got it wrong, for the entire Church, everywhere, to believe that Jesus is expressly talking about the Eucharist in John 6..

Good thing guys like you have come along to correct all those communities that the apostles founded... NOT

Pax et Bonum

 

[Philip James]

Honestly, that sounds like a stretch to me.
It's just plain ignorance and meaningless doctrine, which the Catholic leadership traps and exploits people with. And that's what the real danger is about it.

You really have no clue about the catholic faith do you?

Perhaps you should learn what it is before you go spouting slander and lies..

Here is a good place to start:

Catechism of the Catholic Church

I suggest you start with the prolouge

Pax et Bonum

 

[Philip James]

~ I have personally spoken with Catholics, claiming they were virtually born Catholic at infancy. Done deal, have their ticket to heaven. And no need to attend Church, except for big event Holidays, and can scoot over for “forgiveness” for heinous crimes, and thereafter rest assured.

No Catholic who faithfully practices his faith would make such gross errors..,

Far better to judge the Church on what she actually teaches, than on the words of some schlub who thinks he neednt come to Mass, or be obedient to his bishop..

And yes, God answers the prayers of His people and grants Faith and the Holy Spirit to our children.

Pax et Bonum

 

[RedFan]

Yes, but history tells us the origins of your church didn't come about until the 16th century.

The point is that you mistakenly presumed I couldn't check the Ignatius boxes, with a snarky "That's what I thought" comment rendered without waiting for my answers. Are you always so presumptuous, or are you just having a bad day?

Meanwhile, Episcopalians trace their roots via apostolic succession just as you do. Yet you do not count Episcopalians (or any Anglican sects) as part of what you call the "Catholic" Church because -- unlike the Latin Rite and 20+ Eastern Rite Churches which recognize the Holy See of Rome as the ultimate ecclesiastical authority on earth -- we have no allegiance to the Pope. And it's THAT distinction which I meant to invoke in referring to yours as the Roman Catholic Church.

And, similarly, it's THAT Roman Catholic Church which I said Ignatius was not referring to in using the phrase Καθολικὴ Ἐκκλησία. He wouldn't have presumed to recognize any particular allegiance to the Bishop of Rome at the time he wrote.

 

[Jim B]

No Catholic who faithfully practices his faith would make such gross errors..,

Far better to judge the Church on what she actually teaches, than on the words of some schlub who thinks he neednt come to Mass, or be obedient to his bishop..

And yes, God answers the prayers of His people and grants Faith and the Holy Spirit to our children.

Pax et Bonum

Do Catholics believe that Jesus Christ has been resurrected and is at the right hand of God (as the Bible clearly says)? If so, why do you and other Catholics show Him as dead and still on the cross? That is visual blasphemy!

 

[theefaith]

Do Catholics believe that Jesus Christ has been resurrected and is at the right hand of God (as the Bible clearly says)? If so, why do you and other Catholics show Him as dead and still on the cross? That is visual blasphemy!

Yes of course but we actually believe Christ and scripture

Jesus depicted still on the cross?

Gal 3:1
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1 cor 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

We live in the power of the resurrection but conform to His passion and death till He returns in glory, we share in His suffering.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 

[theefaith]

The point is that you mistakenly presumed I couldn't check the Ignatius boxes, with a snarky "That's what I thought" comment rendered without waiting for my answers. Are you always so presumptuous, or are you just having a bad day?

Meanwhile, Episcopalians trace their roots via apostolic succession just as you do. Yet you do not count Episcopalians (or any Anglican sects) as part of what you call the "Catholic" Church because -- unlike the Latin Rite and 20+ Eastern Rite Churches which recognize the Holy See of Rome as the ultimate ecclesiastical authority on earth -- we have no allegiance to the Pope. And it's THAT distinction which I meant to invoke in referring to yours as the Roman Catholic Church.

And, similarly, it's THAT Roman Catholic Church which I said Ignatius was not referring to in using the phrase Καθολικὴ Ἐκκλησία. He wouldn't have presumed to recognize any particular allegiance to the Bishop of Rome at the time he wrote.

we have no allegiance to the Pope.

therefore no allegiance to Christ!

Christ is king and subject and obedience to his appointed ministers is obedience to Christ

Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1


Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42
1 Tim 3:15

Fundamentalism drives a wedge between Christ and his church, separates Christ from His kingdom, and the authority of Christ from the new covenant!

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema

Extends to the truth and the church

Cos Christ is the truth and His church teaches the truth without error! Jn 14:6 matt 28:19 matt 18:17 1 Tim 3:15 Jn 29:21-23 Jn 16:13

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20



Jesus is the truth! Jn 14:6
So is his church 1 Tim 3:15

 

[theefaith]

Jesus Christ
Founded the one true new covenant church with faith and sacraments for the salvation of souls!

Founded on Peter and the apostles and their successors. Matt 16:18-19 18:18 Jn 20:21 eph 2:20 to teach and sanctify all men Matt 28:19
Jn 3:5 Mk 16:15 acts 8:36-38
1 cor 16:13 gal 3:27

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 2:1&5 brought to life in baptism
Eph 4:5 one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 and not the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

 

[Illuminator]

And, similarly, it's THAT Roman Catholic Church which I said Ignatius was not referring to in using the phrase Καθολικὴ Ἐκκλησία. He wouldn't have presumed to recognize any particular allegiance to the Bishop of Rome at the time he wrote.

First, it was the Anglicans who attached the prefix "Roman" as a slur; they wanted to call themselves "Catholic" without a pope. POOF! You have a recipe for "Romanist"!. So no, Ignatius is not referring a rite way beyond his time. There is no "Roman" in Καθολικὴ Ἐκκλησία. Ignatius is referring the Catholic Church. Period.
The Pope only uses the term "Roman Catholic" when addressing Catholics in his own diocese as a bishop.

Second, in the authentic version of Ignatius’ letter to the Romans, he refers to the church of Rome as the church “worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of obtaining her every desire, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love” (or “presiding in love”). This is less explicit than the sort of papal description given later in the second century (c. 180) by St. Irenaeus of Lyons, but it’s hardly on the level of ‘puzzling omission.’

Third, the Anglican J.B. Lightfoot, no great fan of Catholic (whom he terms “Romanists”) nevertheless concedes that “throughout the thirteen letters the same doctrines are maintained, the same heresies assailed, and the same theological terms employed. In this respect no difference can be traced between the two sets of epistles.” So while there may have been theological reasons (responding to the Apollinarian or Arian heresies) for the forgery of the additional 6 letters, nothing theological (between Catholics and Protestants) turns on these spurious letters. Anything that Protestants would object to in the six false letters is also found in the seven genuine letters.

In other words, the fact that the Middle Recension is authentic should give Protestants serious pause, since it disproves many Protestant theories about the nature of the early Church.

How Do We Know Ignatius’ Letters are Genuine? – Shameless Popery

 

[Jim B]

Yes of course but we actually believe Christ and scripture

Jesus depicted still on the cross?

Gal 3:1
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1 cor 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

We live in the power of the resurrection but conform to His passion and death till He returns in glory, we share in His suffering.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

So the joy of the Lord and the peace of God have no meaning in your life? That is very, very tragic.

Paul clearly did know much, much more than Jesus' crucifixion. Try reading the epistles!

Galatians 5:22-23a, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." No mention of suffering here (or anything close to it!)

Romans 14:17, "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit"

Romans 15:13, "May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit."

2 Corinthians 2:3b, "I had confidence in all of you, that you would all share my joy."

Philippians 1:25, "Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith"

Colossians 1:12, "and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light.

1 Thessalonians 3:9, "How can we thank God enough for you in return for all the joy we have in the presence of our God because of you?"

Hebrews 1:9, "You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” (This clearly refers to the resurrected Christ!)

Hebrews 12:22, "But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly"

James 1:2, "Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds"

1 Peter 1:8, "Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy"

Jude 1:24, "To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy"

Clearly, your Catholic doctrine of suffering is a gross distortion of the New Covenant. The joy of believers is expressed over and over in the New Testament.

Saying that "We live in the power of the resurrection but conform to His passion and death till He returns in glory, we share in His suffering" is tragic!!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, you still haven't answered my question: why do you depict Jesus as dead on the cross, when He has been resurrected and is now at the right hand of God? That is spiritual blasphemy!

Hebrews 12:2b, "For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

 

[Illuminator]

Do Catholics believe that Jesus Christ has been resurrected and is at the right hand of God (as the Bible clearly says)? If so, why do you and other Catholics show Him as dead and still on the cross? That is visual blasphemy!

Scripture in art form is not forbidden in the Bible. Do you agree with A. Hislop's claim that the cross is a satanic symbol?

 

[Taken]

No Catholic who faithfully practices his faith would make such gross errors..,

Far better to judge the Church on what she actually teaches, than on the words of some schlub who thinks he neednt come to Mass, or be obedient to his bishop..

And yes, God answers the prayers of His people and grants Faith and the Holy Spirit to our children.

Pax et Bonum

Sure. That goes hand in hand. Churches secularly are buildings. Spiritually the individual. Many are building members but not Spiritual Christ members. Congregations are all individuals regardless of Catholic / Protestant. Both have a pew filling issue. Each take rule bending measures to fill pews, to keep in operation.

*Churches were designed to Serve the People, Poor in spirit.
*US Republic Governments were designed to Serve the People, Protecting the Rights of People to Work and Provide for themselves.
Many Churches are in Name only, they are Businesses.
The US Republic is in Name only, operated like a Democracy, which is Majority Mob RULE, Dictators, and to hell with the rest, also are Businesses.
*Idea of Servants, under foot, ignored. In Businesses, whomever can market their “Business”, with the most “perking” sounding advantage gets the “customers”.

Prophetic failing. Few get the big picture.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[RedFan]

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Jesus is the truth! Jn 14:6
So is his church 1 Tim 3:15

So, do you count Episcopalians (or any Anglican sects) as part of what you call the "Catholic" Church?