Who is the Queen of Heaven.

[stephen64]

And that altar is in HEAVEN.

Checkmate . . .

I think you have suffered fools mate

 

[BreadOfLife]

Why are you running here?
I believe the Father is the only true God
The Father is greater than the Son
The Father is greater than all

You follow catholic teaching. And if you had the courage to plainly answer my question, you would state I could not enter Heaven with those beliefs

And therefore, my statement was correct. The catholic church would believe I am condemned for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth

I'm not "running". I gave you the official Catholic teaching on anathemas.
If you don't like it - that's YOUR problem.

Unlike YOU and every other ignorant anti-Catholic I've ever conversed with - I don't "condemn" people. That is for GOD alone to do.
I simply gave you HIS warning.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I think you have suffered fools mate

Uhhhh, surrrrre - anything you say.

 

[stephen64]

I'm not "running". I gave you the official Catholic teaching on anathemas.
If you don't like it - that's YOUR problem.

Unlike YOU and every other ignorant anti-Catholic I've ever conversed with - I don't "condemn" people. That is for GOD alone to do.
I simply gave you HIS warning.

So you cannot tell me if the catholic church would believe a person could enter heaven if they believed:
The Father was the only true God
The Father is greater than all
The father is greater than the Son

So do I take it you don't know much catholic doctrine
Or, you are afraid to give the answer as you know what the response would be

Now that is checkmate!

 

[user]

Ummmm, for starters - the martyrs who cry out for justice

Might those be the martyrs that your church MURDERED in multitude during the inquisitions

 

[Jim B]

Really??
What about the vast number of pedophiles in your own Protestant sects?
How Protestant Churches Hid Sexual Abuse ...
A History of Sex Abuse in the Protestant Imagination
FAQ: Sexual Abuse by Protestant Clergy - The Doan Law Firm
1 in 10 Young Protestants Have Left a Church Over Abuse
Evangelicals ‘worse’ than Catholics on sexual abuse
Evangelical Sex Abuse Record ‘Worse’ Than Catholic, Says Billy Graham’s Grandson
Protestants can no longer dismiss abuse as a ‘Catholic problem’
Child Sex Abuse More Prevalent Among Protestants Than Among Catholics
There Is More Sexual Abuse In The Protestant Churches Than Catholic
Catholic priests no guiltier of sex abuse than other clergy
Data Shed Light on Child Sexual Abuse by Protestant Clergy
Blogger Who Exposed Protestant Sex Abuse Cover Up Sued By Her Pastor
Denial About Sexual Abuse In Evangelical Churches
Southern Baptists Apologize For Sex Abuse Coverups
U.S. Protestants’ Views Mixed about Extent of Clergy Sexual Abuse
Churchgoers Split on Existence of More Sexual Abuse by Pastors
Confronting Evangelical Enabling of Sexual Abuse
Child abuse a Calvinist problem, podcast says

Men ARE fallible - but the Holy Spirit is NOT.
Jesus guaranteed that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church to ALL truth (John 16:12-15) and gave His Church supreme earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 29:21-23) - DESPITE the shortcomings of mere men . . .

It doesn't matter if there are other people who are pedophiles; that doesn't excuse the fact that Catholic priests were/are pedophiles. Al, pedophiles are guilty, including Catholics.

Of course, you're misquoting Scripture again. John 16:13-15, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you [His disciples] into all truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but will speak whatever he hears, and will tell you what is to come. He will glorify me, because he will receive from me what is mine and will tell it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; that is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what is mine and will tell it to you." He didn't say that He would guide the church into all truth, but His disciples -- and by extension all those who believe in Him.

And the usual quoting of Matthew 16:18-19, leaving out verse 23, "But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but on man’s.”

Regarding Matthew 18:15-20, “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault when the two of you [you and your brother] are alone. If he listens to you, you have regained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others with you, so that at the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church [as a last resort]. If he refuses to listen to the church, treat him like a Gentile or a tax collector." This puts the church as last in line. It is up to individuals to reconcile; depending on the church is a last resort.

“I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you release on earth will have been released in heaven. Again, I tell you the truth, if two of you on earth agree about whatever you ask, my Father in heaven will do it for you. For where two or three are assembled in my name, I am there among them.”

Luke 10:16, “The one who listens to you listens to me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” isn't addressing the church. (There was no church yet! He was addressing a group of men.)

John 29 doesn't exist! Another careless typo!

Please stop the unScriptural, false babble! It's total nonsense! Deliberately misquoting the Bible is a serious error, and misinterpreting it is even worse. Better pray to Mary and ask her forgiveness for your lies... "pray for us sinners now and in the hour of are death."

 

[BreadOfLife]

Might those be the martyrs that your church MURDERED in multitude during the inquisitions

Ahhhhh - another ignorant anti-Catholic.
Looks like you need a history lesson, amonth other things.

The Church didn't "murcer in multitude" during the Inquisitions. For starters - they were a matter of state.
Secondly - the point that was being discussed was whether or not anybody was in Heaven - and I think I made my Scriptural point quite successfully.

If you want to argue about the Inquisitions - start a thread.
Be ready to discuss the vast nymbers of Catholic martyrs who died at the hands of Protestant murderes as well . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

So you cannot tell me if the catholic church would believe a person could enter heaven if they believed:
The Father was the only true God
The Father is greater than all
The father is greater than the Son
So do I take it you don't know much catholic doctrine
Or, you are afraid to give the answer as you know what the response would be
Now that is checkmate!

No - we Catholics don't condemns people's souls the way YOU ignorant anti-Catholics do.
As I stated earlier, that's GOD's job - NOT yours . . .

As for my knowledge of Catholic doctriine - I'll go toe-to-toe with you on ANY subject.

 

[stephen64]

As for my knowledge of Catholic doctriine - I'll go toe-to-toe with you on ANY subject.

OK, tell me catholic doctrine on the following:
Can a person enter heaven/be saved if they believe:
The Father is the only true God
The Father is greater than the Son
The Father is greater than all

 

[BreadOfLife]

It doesn't matter if there are other people who are pedophiles; that doesn't excuse the fact that Catholic priests were/are pedophiles. Al, pedophiles are guilty, including Catholics.

It doesn't matter if there are other people who are pedophiles; that doesn't excuse the fact that Catholic priests were/are pedophiles. Al, pedophiles are guilty, including Catholics.

Of course, you're misquoting Scripture again. John 16:13-15, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you [His disciples] into all truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but will speak whatever he hears, and will tell you what is to come. He will glorify me, because he will receive from me what is mine and will tell it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; that is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what is mine and will tell it to you." He didn't say that He would guide the church into all truth, but His disciples -- and by extension all those who believe in Him.

And the usual quoting of Matthew 16:18-19, leaving out verse 23, "But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but on man’s.”

Regarding Matthew 18:15-20, “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault when the two of you [you and your brother] are alone. If he listens to you, you have regained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others with you, so that at the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church [as a last resort]. If he refuses to listen to the church, treat him like a Gentile or a tax collector." This puts the church as last in line. It is up to individuals to reconcile; depending on the church is a last resort.

“I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you release on earth will have been released in heaven. Again, I tell you the truth, if two of you on earth agree about whatever you ask, my Father in heaven will do it for you. For where two or three are assembled in my name, I am there among them.”

Luke 10:16, “The one who listens to you listens to me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” isn't addressing the church. (There was no church yet! He was addressing a group of men.)

John 29 doesn't exist! Another careless typo!

Please stop the unScriptural, false babble! It's total nonsense! Deliberately misquoting the Bible is a serious error, and misinterpreting it is even worse. Better pray to Mary and ask her forgiveness for your lies... "pray for us sinners now and in the hour of are death."

Absolutely.

Just showing you that the only thing pointing fingers does is eventually point sthem back at yourself.
People in glass houses, you know . . .

Of course, you're misquoting Scripture again. John 16:13-15, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you [His disciples] into all truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but will speak whatever he hears, and will tell you what is to come. He will glorify me, because he will receive from me what is mine and will tell it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; that is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what is mine and will tell it to you." He didn't say that He would guide the church into all truth, but His disciples -- and by extension all those who believe in Him.

And the usual quoting of Matthew 16:18-19, leaving out verse 23, "But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but on man’s.”

Regarding Matthew 18:15-20, “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault when the two of you [you and your brother] are alone. If he listens to you, you have regained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others with you, so that at the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church [as a last resort]. If he refuses to listen to the church, treat him like a Gentile or a tax collector." This puts the church as last in line. It is up to individuals to reconcile; depending on the church is a last resort.

“I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you release on earth will have been released in heaven. Again, I tell you the truth, if two of you on earth agree about whatever you ask, my Father in heaven will do it for you. For where two or three are assembled in my name, I am there among them.”

Luke 10:16, “The one who listens to you listens to me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” isn't addressing the church. (There was no church yet! He was addressing a group of men.)

John 29 doesn't exist! Another careless typo!

Please stop the unScriptural, false babble! It's total nonsense! Deliberately misquoting the Bible is a serious error, and misinterpreting it is even worse. Better pray to Mary and ask her forgiveness for your lies... "pray for us sinners now and in the hour of are death."

CAREFUL - your ignorance is showing again . . .

In EVERY case, Jesus was addressoing the LEADERS of His Church.
He absolutely guaranteed that the Holy spirit would guide His Church and NOT just the Apostes in that room.

A perfect example of this would be the Canon of Scripture, declared by the Catholic Church in 383 - LONG after the Apostles were dead and gone.
As a matter of fact - EVERY Protestant adheres to the Catholic Canon of the NT.

 

[stephen64]

I'll go toe-to-toe with you on ANY subject.

you started this subject with me. I wrote:

'''As your church believes I am condemned if I stand on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth, I am certainly not going to take their doctrines seriously''''

You responded:
'''Can you show me this teaching from the Catechism of the Catholic Church - or do you want to RE-think this false statement.?'''

We can easily clear this up if you answer the question:

tell me catholic doctrine on the following:
Can a person enter heaven/be saved if they believe:
The Father is the only true God
The Father is greater than the Son
The Father is greater than all

 

[BreadOfLife]

OK, tell me catholic doctrine on the following:
Can a person enter heaven/be saved if they believe:
The Father is the only true God
The Father is greater than the Son
The Father is greater than all

You just don't get it - do you, my woefully ignorant friend?

The Catholic Church doesn't condemn a SINGLE person to Hell because the Church recognizes that this is in God's sovreign power to do so.

I gave you Jesus's warning about denying Him before men.
Take THAT as your answer.
Matt. 10:32-33
Therefore everyone who will confess in Me before men, I also will confess in him before My Father in the heavens but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Then you DON'T know your Bible.
1 Kings 2:19-20
So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him about Adonijah; the king got up to meet her and bowed before her; he then sat down on his throne; a seat was brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down on his right.
“There is one small favor I would ask of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.” “Ask it, my mother,” the king said to her, “for I will not refuse you.”

Just as with the Davidic Kingdom, as Jesus is the King, Mary is the Queen Mother

Confused with your answer....the mother was not addressed as queen.

I did do a Google search and according to European customs it states that a mother of a king or queen is called queen mother but she is not the queen.
A queen mother is a former queen, often a queen dowager, who is the mother of the reigning monarch.[1] The term has been used in English since the early 1560s.[2] It arises in hereditary monarchies in Europe and is also used to describe a number of similar yet distinct monarchical concepts in non-European cultures around the world.

"The Queen Mother" usually, in English, refers to Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother (queen consort, 1936–1952; queen mother, 1952–2002), who was the mother of Queen Elizabeth II and one of the few people to use the term as an official style. However, it is also used as an official title in Thailand where, Sirikit, the mother of the present king, is officially styled “The Queen Mother”.[3]

 

[stephen64]

You just don't get it - do you, my woefully ignorant friend?

OK, tell me catholic doctrine on the following:
Can a person enter heaven/be saved if they believe:
The Father is the only true God
The Father is greater than the Son
The Father is greater than all because the Church recognizes that this is in God's sovreign power to do so.

I gave you Jesus's warning about denying Him before men.
Take THAT as your answer.
Matt. 10:32-33
Therefore everyone who will confess in Me before men, I also will confess in him before My Father in the heavens but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Oh I get it very well, you are afraid to answer the question because you know what the response would be
By your logic, I could ask you if catholic doctrine allowed anyone to be saved and enter heaven if they rejected Christ as their saviour, you wouldn't then respond as you did would you. You would quickly give the answer
People are not stupid you know, it is plainly obvious to all why you refuse to answer a simple question on catholic doctrine. I'm afraid I could not discuss christianity with you anymore. You are plainly afraid to state what you know is catholic belief. I mean, it is nonsense to in effect state catholics have no view on what a person must believe, or cannot believe to be saved/enter heaven.

So I stated the truth, catholic doctrine would condemn me/state I could not be saved/enter Heaven for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth

 

[user]

The Church didn't "murcer in multitude" during the Inquisitions.

Pope Innocent III (head of the Catholic Church and ruler of the Papal States from 8 January 1198 to his death in 16 July 1216) authorized certain monks as inquisitors, to inquire for, and deliver over, the reformed to the secular power. The process was short, as an accusation was deemed adequate to guilt, and a candid trial was never granted to the accused.

The pope, finding that these cruel means had not the intended effect, sent several learned monks to preach among the Waldenses, and to endeavor to argue them out of their opinions. Among these monks was one Dominic, who appeared extremely zealous in the cause of popery (Roman Catholic Church). This Dominic instituted an order, which, from him, was called the order of Dominican friars; and the members of this order have ever since been the principal inquisitors in the various inquisitions in the world. The power of the inquisitors was unlimited; they proceeded against whom they pleased, without any consideration of age, sex, or rank.

These persecutions were continued for several centuries under different popes and other great dignitaries of the Catholic Church.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Confused with your answer....the mother was not addressed as queen.

I did do a Google search and according to European customs it states that a mother of a king or queen is called queen mother but she is not the queen.
A queen mother is a former queen, often a queen dowager, who is the mother of the reigning monarch.[1] The term has been used in English since the early 1560s.[2] It arises in hereditary monarchies in Europe and is also used to describe a number of similar yet distinct monarchical concepts in non-European cultures around the world.

"The Queen Mother" usually, in English, refers to Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother (queen consort, 1936–1952; queen mother, 1952–2002), who was the mother of Queen Elizabeth II and one of the few people to use the term as an official style. However, it is also used as an official title in Thailand where, Sirikit, the mother of the present king, is officially styled “The Queen Mother”.[3]

You did a Google search, did you?

We're not talking about European customs. We are talkijng about BIBLICAL customs.
Kings in the line of David elevated their mothers to the position of Queen - NOT their wives.

The BIBLICAL role of the "Queen Mother" was an office that was bestowed upon the mothers of the Kings of Israel but only to those kings in the line of David. The monarchy was divided into the TWO kingdoms - Judah in the south and Israel in the north.

Whereas the Northern Kingdom was ruled by 9 ruling houses - Judah continued to be ruled ONLY by the House of David – and it was in THIS kingdom that the Queen Mother ruled along with her son. They had many wives – but NONE were the Queen.

This ain't Europe . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Oh I get it very well, you are afraid to answer the question because you know what the response would be
By your logic, I could ask you if catholic doctrine allowed anyone to be saved and enter heaven if they rejected Christ as their saviour, you wouldn't then respond as you did would you. You would quickly give the answer
People are not stupid you know, it is plainly obvious to all why you refuse to answer a simple question on catholic doctrine. I'm afraid I could not discuss christianity with you anymore. You are plainly afraid to state what you know is catholic belief. I mean, it is nonsense to in effect state catholics have no view on what a person must believe, or cannot believe to be saved/enter heaven.

So I stated the truth, catholic doctrine would condemn me/state I could not be saved/enter Heaven for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth

WRONG again.

We are not in the "condemnig" business. We leave that up to GOD alone - along with the usual self-righteous, albeit, brainless anti-Catholics.
I gavw you Jesus's warning about your denial of Him (Matt. 10:32-33). If that's not good enough for you - then you need to take it up woith HIM.

Good luck tellinh Him that at your judgement . . .
Matt. 10:32-33
Therefore everyone who will confess in Me before men, I also will confess in him before My Father in the heavens but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Matt. 7:23
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

 

[BreadOfLife]

Pope Innocent III (head of the Catholic Church and ruler of the Papal States from 8 January 1198 to his death in 16 July 1216) authorized certain monks as inquisitors, to inquire for, and deliver over, the reformed to the secular power. The process was short, as an accusation was deemed adequate to guilt, and a candid trial was never granted to the accused.

The pope, finding that these cruel means had not the intended effect, sent several learned monks to preach among the Waldenses, and to endeavor to argue them out of their opinions. Among these monks was one Dominic, who appeared extremely zealous in the cause of popery (Roman Catholic Church). This Dominic instituted an order, which, from him, was called the order of Dominican friars; and the members of this order have ever since been the principal inquisitors in the various inquisitions in the world. The power of the inquisitors was unlimited; they proceeded against whom they pleased, without any consideration of age, sex, or rank.

These persecutions were continued for several centuries under different popes and other great dignitaries of the Catholic Church.

"Popery"?
"Roman" Catholic Church??

It's difficult to tsake you seriously when you use these types of idiotiuc terms
"Popery" is a stupid, derogatory term that means nothing. It was used by some of your Protestant Fathers when lashing out against the Church - and is intellectually akin to calling somebody a "butthead" because you have nothing of substance to add to the conversation.

As for "Roman" Catholic Church - there is no such thing.
We are The Catholoic Church. "Roman" or "Latin" simply refers to the Liturgical Rite - of which there are about TWENTY that comprise the ONE Catholic Church.

Ther ius al so the Maronite, Melkite, Coptic, Ruthenian, Byzantine, etc. - and they are ALL ub full communion with each other and with the Roman/Latin Rite. Liturgical Rites usually pony differ culturally, not doctrinally.
However - onlt a moron would refer to a Maronite Catholic as being part of the "Roman" Cathollic Church.

So please - if you want to have a serious conversation - leave the manure at the door . . .

 

[stephen64]

WRONG again.

We are not in the "condemnig" business. We leave that up to GOD alone - along with the usual self-righteous, albeit, brainless anti-Catholics.
I gavw you Jesus's warning about your denial of Him (Matt. 10:32-33). If that's not good enough for you - then you need to take it up woith HIM.

Good luck tellinh Him that at your judgement . . .
Matt. 10:32-33
Therefore everyone who will confess in Me before men, I also will confess in him before My Father in the heavens but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Matt. 7:23
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

So if I asked you if a person could be saved and enter heaven if they rejected Christ as their saviour, you would respond '''We are not in the "condemnig" business. We leave that up to GOD alone'''
hmmmmmmmmmm. I don't think so.
But its interesting, you are reluctant, on this subject to even state catholic doctrine as to what is and what is not catholic belief as to what you must believe to be saved and enter heaven. If I played along with you, I would have to wonder if you would be reluctant to share any catholic belief needed for a person to be saved and enter Heaven. I'm sure you wouldn't just this time, as the belief obviously opposes Jesus words.
Your Matt10:32&33 quote, and your warning to me concerning it is rather strange. I quote the plain words of Christ, and you give me a warning about a denial of Jesus. Your problem is, you follow the church rather than what the bible plainly states. I have nothing to fear at the judgement if I stand on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth. If you think I do, then you are in a very bad place indseed.
BTW
I will expect you from now on to offer no opinions as to what catholic belief is, in regard to belief needed to be saved and inherit eternal life, for you say you cannot give that me in this instance as the catholic church is not in the condemning business.
See the trouble you get in when you put catholic doctrine against the plain words of Christ

 

[user]

"Popery"?
"Roman" Catholic Church??

It's difficult to tsake you seriously when you use these types of idiotiuc terms
"Popery" is a stupid, derogatory term that means nothing. It was used by some of your Protestant Fathers when lashing out against the Church - and is intellectually akin to calling somebody a "butthead" because you have nothing of substance to add to the conversation.

As for "Roman" Catholic Church - there is no such thing.
We are The Catholoic Church. "Roman" or "Latin" simply refers to the Liturgical Rite - of which there are about TWENTY that comprise the ONE Catholic Church.

Ther ius al so the Maronite, Melkite, Coptic, Ruthenian, Byzantine, etc. - and they are ALL ub full communion with each other and with the Roman/Latin Rite. Liturgical Rites usually pony differ culturally, not doctrinally.
However - onlt a moron would refer to a Maronite Catholic as being part of the "Roman" Cathollic Church.

So please - if you want to have a serious conversation - leave the manure at the door . . .

Don't blame me for your ignorance.
Your hostility is that of a grade school bully --- get over your childhood issues.