Run AWAY from Calvinism!

[Lifelong_sinner]

And yet I must point out that the cited 1 John passage is still consistent with being able to believe without being regenerated.

Would to God that you trusted Jesus to save you as much as you trust these moldy theological constructs that tell you that you cannot and should not trust Him!

oh man, i had 2 other people ask about that earlier last nite. And this was my response;
“1 john is full of explaining this, texts from 1 John demonstrate that regeneration precedes faith. The texts are as follows:
“If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him” (1 John 2:29). “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God” (1 John 3:9). “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7). “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whomever has been born of him” (1 John 5:1).
no christian would say that before we are born again we must practice righteousness, for such a view would teach works-righteousness. Nor would we say that first we avoid sinning, and then are born of God, for such a view would suggest that human works cause us to be born of God. Nor would we say that first we show great love for God, and then he causes us to be born again. No, it is clear that practicing righteousness, avoiding sin, and loving are all the consequences or results of the new birth. But if this is the case, then we must interpret 1 John 5:1 in the same way, for the structure of the verse is the same as we find in the texts about practicing righteousness (1 John 2:29), avoiding sin (1 John 3:9), and loving God (1 John 4:7). It follows, then, that 1 John 5:1teaches that first God grants us new life and then we believe Jesus is the Christ.

 

[Grailhunter]

and here comes grail. All we need now is robert derrick and the whole calvin haters club will be here.

No hate
Condemn the sin not the sinner.....certainly a phrase to keep in mind when dealing with Calvinists.
I have known some good Calvinists and Calvinist families.
Never met a good Calvinist preacher because their sermons are about deceiving whole congregations.
Try it for yourself...if you get into a conversation with a Calvinist....ask him or her about what they believe about free-will and predestination? Ask them about unescapable damnation? To what extent does predestination apply to all of reality? The 5 points of Calvinism? Most are not going to know a lot about this....and the ones that know a little.....this is were the cult aspect comes in....they well recite how God being a monstrous puppet master is a good thing! That that is the very nature of God....that is what the word sovereign means....for God to be a puppet master.

Those women folk better know their place! You do not see too many Calvinist females here.....there is a reason for that!

So sad! A religion that blasphemes God. Specifically stated doctrines that blasphemes God! So sad! Satan shines those trophies, people that love God stand together to blaspheme Him. Run away from Calvinism.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

The things we suffer. The verse says Jesus learned the obedience of trust/faith by the things He suffered. God does not bring the same exact sufferings to every man. He customizes each ones sufferings. But they are to GROW the mans trust in Him, to teach him to trust no matter what it looks like or how bleak it looks at times. We don’t grow our own trust/faith. We learn to be obediently trustful. We stumble in trust many times. We get stuck in dark holes of despair. We learn to say, this looks so bleak but I trust Him. It is a race of trust in Him. It’s not a race of not sinning. It’s a race of trusting.

ok i think i see whats going on here. About 2 yrs ago, i had a kidney stone, i tend to have a few each year. And so they put another stent in me for 3 weeks, thats the longest i’d ever had one in. I hate them!!! They make life rather bad. When this happened, my outlook was well, God has decreed this to happen, and theres nothing i can do. What you call trust, or faith, i call patience. If God wants something to happen, theres nothing we can do to stop it. Nothing. So i have “learned” that you just go along with it. Deal with the problem as best as i can.

 

[Johann]

grow in trust.

FAITH-UNBELIEF
(A) FAITH (Select Reading He.11)
Heb_11:1-40
(1) General References to
Luk_17:5; Luk_18:8; Rom_10:17; Rom_14:23; 2Co_5:7; Gal_5:6; 1Ti_1:5
Heb_11:1; Heb_11:39; Jam_2:17; 1Jo_5:4
(2) Faith Enjoined, Reasons for
Assures Success
2Ch_20:20; Mar_11:2; Luk_8:50
A Fundamental Duty
Joh_6:28; Joh_6:29; Joh_20:27
A Defensive Weapon
Eph_6:16; 1Th_5:8; 1Ti_1:19; 1Ti_6:12; Heb_10:22
An Indispensable Element in Religion
Heb_11:6
Essential in Prayer
Jam_1:5; Jam_1:6
Should Be United with Love
1Jo_3:23
(3) Justification by
Hab_2:4; Rom_4:3; Rom_5:1; Gal_3:6; Phi_3:9; Heb_10:38; Heb_11:4
--SEE Justification (1), JUSTIFICATION
Salvation (2), SALVATION
(4) Blessings According to
Mat_8:13; Mat_9:29; Mat_9:30; Mat_17:20; Mat_21:21; Mar_9:23
(5) Victorious Faith, examples of
Abraham
Gen_22:8
Caleb
Jos_14:12
Jonathan
1Sa_14:6
David
1Sa_17:37
Jehoshaphat
2Ch_20:12; 2Ch_32:7
Job
Job_19:25
The Three Hebrew Captives
Dan_3:17
Paul
Act_27:25; Rom_4:20
The Ancient Worthies
Heb_11:33
--SEE Committal, FAITH
Trust (3), FAITH
Confidence in God, FAITH
(6) Faith in Christ Secures Salvation
Joh_3:16; Joh_3:36; Joh_5:24; Joh_6:40; Joh_11:25; Joh_12:46; Joh_20:31; Act_8:37
Act_10:43; Act_13:39; Act_16:31; Rom_9:33; Rom_10:9; 2Ti_3:15; 1Jo_5:1
(7) Great Faith, examples of
---The Leper
Mat_8:2
---The Centurion
Mat_8:10
---The Ruler
Mat_9:18
---The Blind Man
Mat_9:28
---The Diseased
Mat_14:36
---The Syrophenician woman
Mat_15:28
---The Afflicted woman
Mar_5:28
(8) Special Promises to those who Exercise
Answer to Prayer
Mat_21:22
Sonship
Joh_1:12; Joh_7:38
Power
Joh_14:12; Rom_10:11; Col_1:23
Soul Rest
Heb_4:3
Spiritual Inheritance
Jam_2:5
Spiritual Foundation
1Pe_2:6
Spiritual Assurance
1Jo_5:14
(9) Aids to Faith
Exo_4:5; Exo_19:9; Isa_41:20; Isa_43:10; Joh_1:7; Joh_11:15; Joh_11:42; Joh_13:19
Joh_14:29; Joh_17:21; Joh_19:35; Joh_20:31
--SEE Knowledge, KNOWLEDGE
(10) Instances of Weak Faith
Mat_6:30; Mat_8:26; Mat_14:31; Mat_16:8
(11) Faith Tested SEE TESTS, SPIRITUAL
(12) Honoured by Christ and the Apostles
Mar_1:41; Mar_2:5; Mar_5:34; Mar_7:29; Mar_10:52; Luk_7:10; Luk_17:14
Joh_4:51; Joh_9:7; Act_14:9
(13) Believers, General References to
Joh_2:22; Joh_4:53; Joh_7:31; Joh_8:30; Joh_10:42; Joh_12:42; Joh_17:8; Act_9:42
Act_16:34; Act_17:12; Act_19:18; Act_24:14; Rom_4:18; 2Ti_1:12
--SEE Faith (5), (7), FAITH
& FAITH
(14) Obstacles that Test the Faith of Believers
Lack of Sympathy on the part of the Church
Mat_15:23; Mar_10:13
Discouraging Circumstances
Luk_5:18; Luk_5:19
Unbelieving Friends
Mar_5:35
Scoffers
Joh_9:24
Divine Delays, not a hindrance but a test
Joh_11:3-6
--SEE Hindrances, HINDRANCES
Faith Tested, TESTS, SPIRITUAL
(B) TRUST in God
(1) Exhortations to
Psa_37:3; Psa_37:5; Psa_115:11; Psa_118:8; Pro_3:5; Isa_26:4; Isa_50:10
--SEE Hope, HOPE
(2) Special Promises Concerning
2Sa_22:31; Psa_31:19; Psa_32:10; Psa_34:22; Psa_125:1; Pro_29:25
Isa_26:3; Jer_17:7; Nah_1:7
--SEE Salvation, SALVATION
(3) Examples of
2Ki18:5; Job_13:15; Psa_25:2; Psa_56:3; Psa_57:1; Isa_12:2
1Ti_4:10; 2Ti_1:12
--SEE God Our Strength, POWER
(4) Committal into God's Hands
Psa_31:5; Luk_23:46; Act_7:59; 2Ti_1:12; 1Pe_2:23; 1Pe_4:19
--SEE 1214
(C) CONFIDENCE IN GOD, examples of
Num_14:8; Psa_3:6; Psa_20:7; Psa_23:4; Psa_27:3; Psa_46:2; Isa_12:2; Hab_3:18
--SEE Assurance, ASSURANCE
Hope in God, HOPE
(D) UNBELIEF
(1) Of Religious Men
Abraham, when promised a Child in Old Age
Gen_17:17
Moses, when told the Host of Israel should be Fed
Num_11:21; Num_20:12
The Disciples, in Failing to Heal a Demoniac
Mat_17:19; Mat_17:20
Zacharias, when Promised that he should have a Great Son
Luk_1:20
The Disciples, when told of the Resurrection of Christ
Luk_24:11
(2) General Examples of
Gen_19:14; 2Ki_7:2; Psa_78:19; Isa_53:1; Mat_13:58; Mat_21:32
Luk_22:67; Joh_3:11; Joh_4:48; Joh_6:64; Joh_10:25; Joh_12:37
--SEE Unbelievers, UNBELIEF
Scoffers, IRREVERENCE
(3) Warnings Concerning
Deu_32:20; Hos_8:12; Mar_16:14; Joh_3:18; Joh_3:36; Joh_8:24; Joh_16:8; Joh_16:9
Rom_11:20; 2Th_2:12; Heb_3:12; Heb_4:11; Jud_1:5
(4) Unbelievers, General References to
Luk_12:46; Joh_4:48; Joh_5:38; Joh_8:45; Joh_10:26; Act_14:2
2Th_3:2; Rev_21:8
(E) DOUBT
(1) Rebuked by Christ
Mat_6:30
Peter sinking in the Sea
Mat_14:31; Mat_16:8
The Disciples Powerless to Heal
Mat_17:17
The Disciples in the Storm
Mar_4:40
The Two on the Way to Emmaus
Luk_24:25; Joh_20:27
--SEE 1219-1221, 1219
(2) Momentary Doubts cloud the Skies of Believers
Abraham, as to the Inheritance of Canaan
Gen_15:8
Gideon, as to Victory over Midian
Jdg_6:17
John the Baptist, as to the Messiahship of Jesus
Mat_11:3; Mat_28:17
Martha, as to the Resurrection of Lazarus
Joh_11:39
Thomas, as to the Resurrection of Christ
Joh_20:25
Early Christians, as to the Deliverance of Peter
Act_12:14; Act_12:15
--SEE Sign-seekers, CURIOSITY
(F) ATHEISM, general references to
Psa_10:4; Psa_14:1; Psa_36:1; Pro_30:9; Jer_5:12; 1Jo_2:22
--SEE Scoffers, IRREVERENCE
Despisers, DESPISERS
Godlessness, UNRIGHTEOUSNESS
(G) MATERIALISM, instances of
Mat_22:23; Act_17:18; Act_17:32; Act_23:8; 1Co_15:12
--SEE Sadducees, SECTS AND PARTIES
Resurrection, IMMORTALITY

I am learning a lot from the Thompson"s Chain Reference Bible.
Maybe we can share some of the resources we have?
J.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

No hate
Condemn the sin not the sinner.....certainly a phrase to keep in mind when dealing with Calvinists.
I have known some good Calvinists and Calvinist families.
Never met a good Calvinist preacher because their sermons are about deceiving whole congregations.
Try it for yourself...if you get into a conversation with a Calvinist....ask him or her about what they believe about free-will and predestination? Ask them about unescapable damnation? To what extent does predestination apply to all of reality? The 5 points of Calvinism? Most are not going to know a lot about this....and the ones that know a little.....this is were the cult aspect comes in....they well recite how God being a monstrous puppet master is a good thing! That that is the very nature of God....that is what the word sovereign means....for God to be a puppet master.

Those women folk better know their place! You do not see too many Calvinist females here.....there is a reason for that!

So sad! A religion that blasphemes God. Specifically stated doctrines that blasphemes God! So sad! Satan shines those trophies, people that love God stand together to blaspheme Him. Run away from Calvinism.

dude, im the most calvinist person on here.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

im not saying theres sinless perfection, but what i am saying is that if you have a seriously habitual sin and it goes on for a while, you are not saved. Im not saying this to you personally, i dont know you, but if someone i knew had a habitual sin for 14 yrs, nah i’d call em a false convert. They hadnt been saved, yet.

So what is the cutoff point? 14 years? One year? God is patient and He knows how weak and wobbly in trust we are. How many times do babies wobble and fall before they learn to walk or run a race without continually tripping and falling? How many years of trusting did Abraham have to practice and walk in before God brought the child He had promised? The verse says whatever is not of trust in God (faith) is sin. You have some things right. You cannot help Him bring about the birth He has promised He will if you will just believe He can and will do it. The only way to it is through trust. Saved by the kindness of God, THROUGH trust. By grace THROUGH trust (faith).

 

[Grailhunter]

dude, im the most calvinist person on here.

I would believe that....but I will say you are not your average Calvinist. I do have friends that are Calvinists and I go with them to church sometimes....That is how I know you are not your average Calvinist. Good people....love God....have no idea of the evil that permeates those churches.

 

[Lambano]

“Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whomever has been born of him” (1 John 5:1).

Do you believe that Jesus is the Messiah? (I won't ask whether you love the Father.) I know you do, so you're saying you're born of God and you have nothing to worry about and you can relax now.

The passage is saying that believing Jesus is the Messiah is mandatory for anyone born of God. Or to state the logical negation of the statement, anyone who does NOT believe Jesus is the Messiah is definitely NOT born of God.

What the passage is NOT saying is that you have to be born of God to believe Jesus is the Messiah.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

I would believe that....but I will say you are not your average Calvinist. I do have friends that are Calvinists and I go with them to church sometimes....That is how I know you are not your average Calvinist. Good people....love God....have no idea of the evil that permeates those churches.

i dont know if this is a compliment or complaint. I get told on here often, you definitely arent the first, that im not the avg calvinist, and that confuses me. Calvinism is calvinism is calvinism.

 

[Johann]

prior to Jesus death, im not sure what the disciples thought about their salvation. Thomas even doubted that Jesus rose from the dead, he needed proof. What we do know is that after Jesus ascended to Heaven, and the Holy Spirit came in His place, they all were much more mature in their faith, and i do believe the Holy Spirit was heavily sanctifying them.

The only way to get through to @Lifelong_sinner is to quote scriptures and use biblical terminologies and not high philosophical reasoning.
Too much of that going around and again, like him, I am weary of those who seem to "have all the answers" sitting in comfort on their sofas.
Guess i'm going to get a slap from behind but I don't fear the face of man, I'm not Jesus, I might slap back.
It's not about our testimony but the testimony of Christ.
Preach Christ, Him crucified, Him resurrected who had nowhere to lay His head and leave the emotional speech, I don't trust my own emotions..
J.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Do you believe that Jesus is the Messiah? (I won't ask whether you love the Father.) I know you do, so you're saying you're born of God and you have nothing to worry about and you can relax now.

The passage is saying that believing Jesus is the Messiah is mandatory for anyone born of God. Or to state the logical negation of the statement, anyone who does NOT believe Jesus is the Messiah is definitely NOT born of God.

What the passage is NOT saying is that you have to be born of God to believe Jesus is the Messiah.

yes, i believe Jesus is the Messiah.
Yes, there are some things that are mandatory to believe other than that.
I dont think anyone who didnt care could deny it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

ok i think i see whats going on here. About 2 yrs ago, i had a kidney stone, i tend to have a few each year. And so they put another stent in me for 3 weeks, thats the longest i’d ever had one in. I hate them!!! They make life rather bad. When this happened, my outlook was well, God has decreed this to happen, and theres nothing i can do. What you call trust, or faith, i call patience. If God wants something to happen, theres nothing we can do to stop it. Nothing. So i have “learned” that you just go along with it. Deal with the problem as best as i can.

I had the same (sort of) fatalistic outlook. My “learning to go along with it” was morbid, a bit angry, thinking God was very merciless and unrelenting with me. It took a long time, very long, before I accepted sufferings He brought me with, if not rabid joy, at least with knowing He brought them to grow my trust, not to be mean.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

So what is the cutoff point? 14 years? One year? God is patient and He knows how weak and wobbly in trust we are. How many times do babies wobble and fall before they learn to walk or run a race without continually tripping and falling? How many years of trusting did Abraham have to practice and walk in before God brought the child He had promised? The verse says whatever is not of trust in God (faith) is sin. You have some things right. You cannot help Him bring about the birth He has promised He will if you will just believe He can and will do it. The only way to it is through trust. Saved by the kindness of God, THROUGH trust. By grace THROUGH trust (faith).

my own struggles with besetting sins has been going on for almost 3 yrs. I’ve been doing the sin itself for decades, but only in the last 3 have i been trying to stop. At the beginning, i thought i had done it, but it only lasted for 5 weeks. That was when i knew i still had not been saved. So for me, it was a mere 5 weeks. And given that its been almost 3 yrs with no victory, i feel like im running out of time.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

I had the same (sort of) fatalistic outlook. My “learning to go along with it” was morbid, a bit angry, thinking God was very merciless and unrelenting with me. It took a long time, very long, before I accepted sufferings He brought me with, if not rabid joy, at least with knowing He brought them to grow my trust, not to be mean.

fatalistic. I have heard many a folk say calvinism is fatalistic, but i disagree. The best part about calvinism i find is that no other doctrine can convince a person of just how totally depraved they are. I see that on here daily as well. I dont take joy in suffering, mine or others, but i accept it as Gods decree. I believe that everything happens for a reason. That even those who goto hell do so for a reason, to glorify God. Everything that happens, happens so that He is glorified. That is literally the reason we exist.

 

[Lambano]

dude, im the most calvinist person on here.

Does Reformed1869 know this? He might take it as a challenge.

 

[Lambano]

my own struggles with besetting sins has been going on for almost 3 yrs. I’ve been doing the sin itself for decades, but only in the last 3 have i been trying to stop. At the beginning, i thought i had done it, but it only lasted for 5 weeks. That was when i knew i still had not been saved. So for me, it was a mere 5 weeks. And given that its been almost 3 yrs with no victory, i feel like im running out of time.

The struggle may be more important in God's eyes than the victory. Trust is an art to be pursued rather than a goal to be achieved. "My grace is sufficient for you." But I'm still praying you get set free, especially if that's what you need in order to trust Him.

Hey, Thomas needed to stick his finger in Jesus's side before he would believe, and Jesus accommodated him. But blessed are those who have not seen, and yet trust.

 

[Johann]

Faith is a learned obedience. We learn the obedience of faith. It’s a verse. It says Jesus learned the obedience of trust (faith) by the things He suffered. Trust is an obedience. We practice it. We get caught in nauseous worries over literally everything and we return to trust. We learn to do this and grow in trust. We return over and over again and learn to stand more firm in our trust.

Heb_5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

..where do you get Jesus learned the "obedience of trust?"
Bearing in mind His human side yet at the same time God?
J.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

yes, i believe Jesus is the Messiah.
Yes, there are some things that are mandatory to believe other than that.
I dont think anyone who didnt care could deny it.

This is true. After all, even satan believes Jesus is the Messiah.
Men believe and trust they will live forever. Then they proceed to not believe and trust any other thing He has said. They prove that over and over again. They worry about all things temporal - how they will pay the rent, if they might lose their job, etc, even though He SAID not to worry over those things but just trust. It’s an exact repeat of Israel in the desert. I mean, they had to trust they would not die or they would not have stepped out beneath the towering wall of water. They trusted, did what He said, He saved their lives in that trust, then they worried about temporal provision instead of continuing in trust (faith.) we ARE Israel in the desert. An exact replica.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Heb_5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

..where do you get Jesus learned the "obedience of trust?"
Bearing in mind His human side yet at the same time God?
J.

It might seem a roundabout way that I get there. I never thought about that. What obedience do we learn? I guess someone could answer, obedience to His will. And that’s valid. (Take this suffering from me, but nevertheless, Your will, not mine.) I could never say that for the longest time. It wasn’t until I came to trust Him even when I DIDNT like whatever was happening that I could begin to desire His will.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

fatalistic. I have heard many a folk say calvinism is fatalistic, but i disagree. The best part about calvinism i find is that no other doctrine can convince a person of just how totally depraved they are. I see that on here daily as well. I dont take joy in suffering, mine or others, but i accept it as Gods decree. I believe that everything happens for a reason. That even those who goto hell do so for a reason, to glorify God. Everything that happens, happens so that He is glorified. That is literally the reason we exist.

I meant fatalistic more as…mournfully accepting rather than actually desiring my suffering because I’ve seen enough times that He does good for me by it.