Let's discuss..cessation after death?

[The Disciple John]

Now why would you say that DJ?

It's complicated.

Thanks DJ, no need for you help me appreciate the scriptures as taught in the Bible as many here have already finished the race in obtaining absolute perfection, in word, thought and deed..and expressing themselves in a lingo foreign to my ears divorcing scriptures in a happy, love all, offend none virtual environment.
J.

I understand.
I like how Paul dealt with that situation.
2 Corinthians 11:12-18
12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
16 I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then tolerate me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little boasting. 17 In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool. 18 Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast.

Paul was not hindered from doing what he had been doing. He continued.
He stood up to what those false apostles were displaying.
He fought with the weapons God supplied him.
2 Corinthians 10:4-6
4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.

It's a spiritual warfare Johann, and God's people are prepared to fight until the battle is won.
Unlike the nation of Israel, where opportunity was allowed for the fainthearted to go home (Deuteronomy 20:8 Then the officers shall add, “Is anyone afraid or fainthearted? Let him go home so that his fellow soldiers will not become disheartened too.”) - and that's understandable, since they fought physical wars - this warfare does not allow for cowardice.
2 Timothy 1:7-8
7 For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline. 8 So do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord or of me his prisoner. Rather, join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God.

Even Jesus stood up to the Pharisees, and he did not allow them to 'sell their fake merchandise' unhindered.
God's earthly servants are like the locusts. They don't turn tail or retreat. They go straight forward... into the battle.

 

[BarneyFife]

You've put me straight more than once in areas none else recognized, or at least were perhaps willing to address. I appreciate you and for that reason alone at the very least, tells me you belong here.

You're much too kind, my friend. If good has been done, we know there is none good but God, AMEN? Your presence here has done much to encourage me, as well. Up high!

I just posted in the Calvinism thread and the notifications are rolling in already. lol

 

[BarneyFife]

Google translate?
Barn' this is me, Johann, the whole world can read what is typed here or is it only for Christian forums?
Why must I use Google de clook?
This is virtual communication man, I can't see you and you can't see me..know what I mean?

Just asking. You can't really hide anywhere. The recording angels (and Anonymous) are always watching.

 

[The Disciple John]

It's not that I didn't understand what you said. It's not that deep. It runs along the lines that those who say they abide in Him ought themselves to walk, even as He walked and that He spake as one having authority, not like the scribes and Pharisees. That's a simple enough concept to grasp, and I've given it much thought over the years.

What I didn't understand was how it applied to the post that you quoted from me.

I find that, at least with fairly non-aggressive posters, it is not profitable to dice up everything they post and "set them straight." People who are very sensitive or uninitiated should not be given undue pressure to come to a seasoned understanding of sacred things. Too many of us are (however well-meaningly) trying to usurp the office of the Holy Ghost. It is so very easy to allow Satan to trick us into trampling on the freedom of conscience of others. It happens on this and other discussion platforms constantly.

On the other hand, I was compelled to dress down a member (which I have no authority to do) about a week ago for false reporting under the guise of benevolence (utter hypocrisy—a thing I can barely stand). I have reference to one of our very soft-spoken members, who always greets with a syrupy salutation, but often follows with thinly-veiled venom. If he were half as charitable as his profession, He would admit his fault and apologize, but he has elected to run and hide, as so many of the type are wont to do.

We should talk more. I confess that I am apprehensive about engaging too quickly with folks I can tell are going to differ widely with certain of my views. Some differences tend to have more potential for undue contention than others depending on the personality of adherents. I don't care to put up much of a defense for what I consider to be non-essentials. Right now, I'm contending with ultra-Calvinism and antinomianism in other threads, and this one has lost much of its steam. I look forward to chatting with you more, and more often. And, if I didn't already say so, a hearty welcome to you. :)

I wasn't exactly targeting your post. It just seem that was a good opportunity to make the point I wanted to - connecting the actions of Jesus' followers to his example. It wasn't about you and what you said, particularly.
Thanks for the hospitable gesture. :)

 

[The Disciple John]

....
By the way, you wouldn't perhaps be a student of pre-suppositionist apologetics, would you? I couldn't help but notice your signature.

No That's just one of those quotes that stands out to me. :)

 

[Johann]

Theologians ruin everything, anyway. lol

Just asking. You can't really hide anywhere. The recording angels (and Anonymous) are always watching.

Rephrase or spill it out Barn'
I don't find recording angels nor Anonymous always watchin' in my Bible.
Do you?

 

[Johann]

It's complicated.


I understand.
I like how Paul dealt with that situation.
2 Corinthians 11:12-18
12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
16 I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then tolerate me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little boasting. 17 In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool. 18 Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast.

Paul was not hindered from doing what he had been doing. He continued.
He stood up to what those false apostles were displaying.
He fought with the weapons God supplied him.
2 Corinthians 10:4-6
4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.

It's a spiritual warfare Johann, and God's people are prepared to fight until the battle is won.
Unlike the nation of Israel, where opportunity was allowed for the fainthearted to go home (Deuteronomy 20:8 Then the officers shall add, “Is anyone afraid or fainthearted? Let him go home so that his fellow soldiers will not become disheartened too.”) - and that's understandable, since they fought physical wars - this warfare does not allow for cowardice.
2 Timothy 1:7-8
7 For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline. 8 So do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord or of me his prisoner. Rather, join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God.

Even Jesus stood up to the Pharisees, and he did not allow them to 'sell their fake merchandise' unhindered.
God's earthly servants are like the locusts. They don't turn tail or retreat. They go straight forward... into the battle.

Yes this I understand. Our warfare is not against flesh and blood...yet there is a tendency to do just that
Would you agree that not everyone on this forum claiming to be a Christian is a Christian?
What about mark that man and have no fellowship with him?
The same question can be asked of me, of course.
J.

 

[Johann]

It's a spiritual warfare Johann, and God's people are prepared to fight until the battle is won.

You and I must know who is with us in this battle.
J.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

So it is a good thing when we hear things that go against what we believe, because if it shakes our faith, or breaks down that belief we thought was a fortress, causing us to see it for what it is... it may hurt, but it serves as a correction that brings benefits.

Amen! This would part and parcel of This Everlasting Benefit:

"For whom He Did Foreknow, He Also Did Predestinate To Be
Conformed To The Image Of His SON, that He might be The
Firstborn among many brethren." (Romans_8:29)

 

[Johann]

Yes this I understand. Our warfare is not against flesh and blood...yet there is a tendency to do just that
Would you agree that not everyone on this forum claiming to be a Christian is a Christian?
What about mark that man and have no fellowship with him?
The same question can be asked of me, of course.
J.

BATTLE OF LIFE

(A) ANCIENT HEROES (Select Reading, Heb. chap 11.)
Heb_11:1-40
(1) Typical of Men Engaged in Life's Battles
Joshua
Jos_11:23
Gideon
Jdg_7:14
Jonathan
1Sa_14:6
David
1Sa_17:45
Elisha
2Ki6:17
Jehoshaphat
2Ch_20:20
(2) When Obedient were Invincible
Deu_7:24; Deu_11:25; Deu_28:7; Jos_1:5; Jos_10:8; Jos_21:44; Jos_23:9; Son_6:10
--SEE Strength, POWER
(B) THE SPIRITUAL CONFLICT
(1) Characteristics of
An Inward Battle
Rom_7:23
Spiritual Weapons
2Co_10:4
Invisible Foes
Eph_6:12
Young Soldiers Enlisted
1Ti_1:18
A Fight of Faith
1Ti_6:12
Demands Entire Consecration
2Ti_2:4; Heb_10:32; Rev_12:17

Yes, I concur John
J.

 

[amadeus]

Oh, okay. May be a little deep, but hopefully not too deep.

Jesus knew the truth, which he got from his father.
There was no doubt in his mind that what he said was the truth. In other words, he was not uncertain, and in need of confirmation, or correction. He knew it all.
What Jesus taught meant life, and so he taught with authority, and conviction, out of love for those who would benefit if they listened.

Jesus followers are the same. They too are moved by love to teach what they were taught, with authority, and conviction, because it means life for those who listen.

This is the way of those who know the truth. They know the way. They point people to the way, because it means their life.

I was listening to @Johann, and following his conversations.
I was moved, out of love, of course, to draw attention to the above, after considering @Johann's feelings expressed in his posts.
I was thinking, 'How would I help him to appreciate that the truth, as taught in the Bible, is not compatible with theology'.

I decided to ask the question, 'Were Jesus and his followers not "know it alls"?", in order to hear your responses.
If they were, and indeed, they were, in this context, then it is expected that his followers today, would present the truth, not as individuals who don't know, but as individuals who know the truth.

I was thinking of Hebrews 12:5
And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,

Because of God's love, he disciplines us.
We don't often like discipline, but... as Paul says, No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12:11

So it is a good thing when we hear things that go against what we believe, because if it shakes our faith, or breaks down that belief we thought was a fortress, causing us to see it for what it is... it may hurt, but it serves as a correction that brings benefits.
I would prefer a bruised ego to a broken neck. That's humility anyway.

I hope I helped clear things up for you Barney.

Would you say that Jesus then lived by knowledge rather than by faith as the rest of us do?

But then there is this too:

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2

Does it speak of faith being finally finished when we like Jesus know rather than simply believe by faith?

 

[marks]

You can't just hang on one to interpret it - you know that. Matthew 25:46 must harmonize with all these verses. The final judgment of death is the end of an individual, physically and spiritually.

It's not just one, but I choose one to look at, one which is plain, and these other passages all need to be in harmony with it also.

This is why I speak so much about how we define death. If you understand death is separation and not cessation, there is not discordance between all the passages.

Destroy can mean ruin or obliterate, and it's more in keeping with ruin when you look at all the passages.

Just the same, we both know the material, we've come to different understandings, we prioritize what we see to be clear statements differently, as to which is more clear, and which are less clear, and which speak towards earthy perceptions, and which speak to eternal realities. I don't think we're going to change each other's minds, and I like you too much to argue over it.

You certainly do know the material, and I appreciate all you've written to me.

At the end of the day, I realize I could be wrong, and your side of the debate makes a lot of sense to me, and seems desireable to me, but in good conscience I have to say that I believe the Scriptures teach something different than that. And my other thoughts don't matter a bit.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You know what phrase amazes me every time I hear it? When someone says: scripture is very clear on this matter. I always think, well then, which is it? Always answer a fool according to his folly or never answer a fool according to his folly? The next thing I think is, the man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to.

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.

Do you remember when you first devoured His words and couldn’t stop, where your confusions were? My first big confusion was over why in one place it would suggest He removes the wicked and in another that He removes the righteous. It was such a puzzlement to me! Then when I read, now I will destroy the righteous along with the wicked, I think my head almost exploded…

But there's no need to stay holding onto these questions, each are addressed in their contexts, and the way the passages are written. A little study answers each of these. Although I don't think you will like this reply.

Much love!

 

[The Disciple John]

Yes this I understand. Our warfare is not against flesh and blood...yet there is a tendency to do just that
Would you agree that not everyone on this forum claiming to be a Christian is a Christian?
What about mark that man and have no fellowship with him?
The same question can be asked of me, of course.
J.

While there are people who pretend to be what they are not, I think it's quite unlikely you will find people pretending to be a Christian, on these forum.
You are more likely to find those kinds of people on forums where Atheists gather like flies. I think they pretend to be Christians to add more confusion to debates on scripture.

On these forums however, would be - not necessarily pretenders, but those who are misled. Many, because they don't want to accept what can be clearly seen to be scripturally true. Some, because they are comfortable on the fringes, and they don't want to put in the effort to know the truth.
I guess that's a form of pretending.

It's more the case though, that they believe they are Christian, or declare themselves to be, but don't realize or understand that they are not.

I understand a Christian to be a follower of Jesus Christ - his teachings and example.
However, a whole lot of conflicting teachings cannot all be the truth, or Jesus teachings.
Many here would not agree with that though, since the common belief today about Christianity, is that so long as one believes in Jesus Christ, that makes one Christian... the other teachings don't matter.

Is that how you view Christianity, also?

 

[The Disciple John]

Would you say that Jesus then lived by knowledge rather than by faith as the rest of us do?

But then there is this too:

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2

Does it speak of faith being finally finished when we like Jesus know rather than simply believe by faith?

That's a very interesting question... one I never even considered. Lol. So, I should probably research it, but for now, I will answer from my little understanding and reasoning on scripture.

According to the definition of faith, in the Bible, "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

Paul said, "...hope that is seen is not hope; for who hope for that which he see? But if we hope for that which we [do not] see, then [we wait for it with patience]. - Romans 8:24, 25

Since Jesus knows the father; has seen the father; was sent from the father, Jesus doesn't need to hope for anything. He already knows that every word from his father is guaranteed - as good as accomplished.
Hence, Jesus does not hope for things he already sees. He doesn't require faith.
...although it can be said that he does not yet see those promises, so he still needs hope. So I could be wrong, in my reasoning here.


Jesus, had much joy to look forward to.
Joy is described as a feeling of great pleasure and happiness... which is different to hope.
As God's annointed king, he would bring about God's will on earth, and vindicate his father's sovereignty.
He had reasons for Joy. He looked forward to all that he would accomplish in behalf of his father's name.

The other thing is, the faith you describe there is the "faith" I heard many professing Christianity refer to... but that's a blind belief, and some have actually described it this way, to me.
That's not faith, as described in Hebrews 11:1, which is based on evidence, and actually depends on, and follows knowledge.

Paul explains it in Romans 10:13-17
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not [put faith]? And how shall they [put faith] in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

True faith requires knowledge. Otherwise, it's blind belief, or gullibility.

From the scriptures, we see that God's children (Jesus' brothers) know. They don't just simply believe by faith.
When we go back to the first century AD, Penticost 33, we see that God gave the ones he anointed, a guarentee. Acts 2:1-4
Romans 8:16 says, "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God".

So. it's clear to them. They know.
Of course, they still need faith, because they have not received their hope. They see it with "eyes of faith".

I understand your question though, in relation to us.
As explained above, faith is not void of knowledge, or knowing.
The scriptures say knowing is a must. It's vital for salvation. It is required for faith.

John 8:31-32
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

So, Jesus' followers know, but they require faith.
1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
1 Timothy 4:3; 2 Timothy 3:7; 1 John 2:21; 1 John 4:6-7; 2 John 1

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

 

[amadeus]

That's a very interesting question... one I never even considered. Lol. So, I should probably research it, but for now, I will answer from my little understanding and reasoning on scripture.

According to the definition of faith, in the Bible, "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

Paul said, "...hope that is seen is not hope; for who hope for that which he see? But if we hope for that which we [do not] see, then [we wait for it with patience]. - Romans 8:24, 25

Since Jesus knows the father; has seen the father; was sent from the father, Jesus doesn't need to hope for anything. He already knows that every word from his father is guaranteed - as good as accomplished.
Hence, Jesus does not hope for things he already sees. He doesn't require faith.
...although it can be said that he does not yet see those promises, so he still needs hope. So I could be wrong, in my reasoning here.


Jesus, had much joy to look forward to.
Joy is described as a feeling of great pleasure and happiness... which is different to hope.
As God's annointed king, he would bring about God's will on earth, and vindicate his father's sovereignty.
He had reasons for Joy. He looked forward to all that he would accomplish in behalf of his father's name.

The other thing is, the faith you describe there is the "faith" I heard many professing Christianity refer to... but that's a blind belief, and some have actually described it this way, to me.
That's not faith, as described in Hebrews 11:1, which is based on evidence, and actually depends on, and follows knowledge.

Paul explains it in Romans 10:13-17
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not [put faith]? And how shall they [put faith] in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

True faith requires knowledge. Otherwise, it's blind belief, or gullibility.

From the scriptures, we see that God's children (Jesus' brothers) know. They don't just simply believe by faith.
When we go back to the first century AD, Penticost 33, we see that God gave the ones he anointed, a guarentee. Acts 2:1-4
Romans 8:16 says, "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God".

So. it's clear to them. They know.
Of course, they still need faith, because they have not received their hope. They see it with "eyes of faith".

I understand your question though, in relation to us.
As explained above, faith is not void of knowledge, or knowing.
The scriptures say knowing is a must. It's vital for salvation. It is required for faith.

John 8:31-32
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

So, Jesus' followers know, but they require faith.
1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
1 Timothy 4:3; 2 Timothy 3:7; 1 John 2:21; 1 John 4:6-7; 2 John 1

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

First see Jesus here:

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

But then let us look also at us:

From faith to knowledge: Will our faith be finished one day?
This verse seems to say so:

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2

But until it is finished we are to continue in it, that is, in faith:

"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." Acts 14:22

We may start with just a little faith toward our Lord, but it certainly should be increased. We certainly should have more faith added to our little bit of faith as we continue to live by it:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:16-17

And so then more faith comes from...

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." Rom 10:17-18

But will not our faith eventually become knowledge? The amount of faith in the things of God which is less than knowledge of same should be based how much is unknown or unseen:

"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:10-12

When we are seeing "face to face" in anything has it not then already moved from faith to knowledge?

"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:" I Pet 1:7-8

And is not the end of faith, the perfect knowledge of all that we need, according to God, ours, when we have been finally and completely saved?

"Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls." I Pet 1:7-9

What I see is believers having a mixture of belief and knowledge:

The knowledge is the correct understanding of some portion of God's plan and/or our part in it. The difficulty is that at this point, we are not always able to clearly discern the difference between what we really know and what we only believe (faith). As we grow toward God (if we are growing toward God) the amount of knowledge which has replaced faith will have increased proportionally. The Way to such an increase in knowledge is, of course through faith. We must always take steps in faith (things not seen clearly) to approach God, to eventually (hopefully) see Him face to face.

All of this begins as our vision (without which "the people perish"), which is seen as through a glass darkly, improves (or not) in completeness and clarity .

 

[Johann]

While there are people who pretend to be what they are not, I think it's quite unlikely you will find people pretending to be a Christian, on these forum.
You are more likely to find those kinds of people on forums where Atheists gather like flies. I think they pretend to be Christians to add more confusion to debates on scripture.

On these forums however, would be - not necessarily pretenders, but those who are misled. Many, because they don't want to accept what can be clearly seen to be scripturally true. Some, because they are comfortable on the fringes, and they don't want to put in the effort to know the truth.
I guess that's a form of pretending.

It's more the case though, that they believe they are Christian, or declare themselves to be, but don't realize or understand that they are not.

I understand a Christian to be a follower of Jesus Christ - his teachings and example.
However, a whole lot of conflicting teachings cannot all be the truth, or Jesus teachings.
Many here would not agree with that though, since the common belief today about Christianity, is that so long as one believes in Jesus Christ, that makes one Christian... the other teachings don't matter.

Is that how you view Christianity, also?

It all comes down to this...he that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God ha

While there are people who pretend to be what they are not, I think it's quite unlikely you will find people pretending to be a Christian, on these forum.
You are more likely to find those kinds of people on forums where Atheists gather like flies. I think they pretend to be Christians to add more confusion to debates on scripture.

On these forums however, would be - not necessarily pretenders, but those who are misled. Many, because they don't want to accept what can be clearly seen to be scripturally true. Some, because they are comfortable on the fringes, and they don't want to put in the effort to know the truth.
I guess that's a form of pretending.

It's more the case though, that they believe they are Christian, or declare themselves to be, but don't realize or understand that they are not.

I understand a Christian to be a follower of Jesus Christ - his teachings and example.
However, a whole lot of conflicting teachings cannot all be the truth, or Jesus teachings.
Many here would not agree with that though, since the common belief today about Christianity, is that so long as one believes in Jesus Christ, that makes one Christian... the other teachings don't matter.

Is that how you view Christianity, also?

The Spurgeon Library | Helps to Full Assurance

Time for me to examine myself in the light of scripture, not relying on the witness and testimony of others, but to find it for myself as the Holy Spirit guides..reading through the Bible at the moment and will now and again be here to observe.
J.

 

[The Disciple John]

First see Jesus here:

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

But then let us look also at us:

From faith to knowledge: Will our faith be finished one day?
This verse seems to say so:

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2

But until it is finished we are to continue in it, that is, in faith:

"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." Acts 14:22

We may start with just a little faith toward our Lord, but it certainly should be increased. We certainly should have more faith added to our little bit of faith as we continue to live by it:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:16-17

And so then more faith comes from...

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." Rom 10:17-18

But will not our faith eventually become knowledge? The amount of faith in the things of God which is less than knowledge of same should be based how much is unknown or unseen:

"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:10-12

When we are seeing "face to face" in anything has it not then already moved from faith to knowledge?

"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:" I Pet 1:7-8

And is not the end of faith, the perfect knowledge of all that we need, according to God, ours, when we have been finally and completely saved?

"Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls." I Pet 1:7-9

What I see is believers having a mixture of belief and knowledge:

The knowledge is the correct understanding of some portion of God's plan and/or our part in it. The difficulty is that at this point, we are not always able to clearly discern the difference between what we really know and what we only believe (faith). As we grow toward God (if we are growing toward God) the amount of knowledge which has replaced faith will have increased proportionally. The Way to such an increase in knowledge is, of course through faith. We must always take steps in faith (things not seen clearly) to approach God, to eventually (hopefully) see Him face to face.

All of this begins as our vision (without which "the people perish"), which is seen as through a glass darkly, improves (or not) in completeness and clarity .

Knowledge and faith are indeed essential.
I think I understand what you are saying, or perhaps I don't understand. Hopefully I do. :)

One can have accurate knowledge of the truth, yet still grow in knowledge, because a full or complete understanding can never be reached by anyone. Only God possesses that... which is unlimited.

Spoiler: Limited knowledge

In the case of Jesus, as an immortal being, he still does not possess all knowledge, but only what the father reveals. However, Jesus has far more knowledge than any person.

In the case of the anointed - those who will become immortal on receiving their heavenly bodies, they know God, and have accurate knowledge of the truth, but still their understanding is not complete, and they continue to grow in knowledge, understanding, and wisdom.

All who listen, will benefit, from such knowledge, and spiritual growth.

Is that something you agree with?

Full knowledge therefore, is relative to God's. Thus when Paul says, "For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known." (1 Corinthians 13:12), he is referring to a full understanding of what God has given them, by way of knowledge.

To give one example... God revealed his purpose. He did so gradually, but the annointed ones got to know it.
Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Yet, there are many things pertaining to that purpose, which they don't fully understand. Like what they will be.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

That full knowledge will be known at the appointed time... perhaps even at the time they become like Christ, just as they only understood certain things Jesus said, only when they were fulfilled.

Am I close to what you are saying?

 

[The Disciple John]

Time for me to examine myself in the light of scripture, not relying on the witness and testimony of others, but to find it for myself as the Holy Spirit guides..reading through the Bible at the moment and will now and again be here to observe.
J.

That's a good start. It's the recommended steps, actually - reading through the Bible. Praying for help, in understanding, of course.
Then you will know yourself by the next step.

Acts 8:26-31
26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is desert. 27 So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.”
30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.

Acts 10:30-33
30 So Cornelius said, “Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, 31 and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your alms are remembered in the sight of God. 32 Send therefore to Joppa and call Simon here, whose surname is Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea. When he comes, he will speak to you.’ 33 So I sent to you immediately, and you have done well to come. Now therefore, we are all present before God, to hear all the things commanded you by God.”

Reading and praying helped those individuals, but the key was their responce - humbly willing to accept the direction to be taught by one of Jesus' disciples.

That's the way God has chosen to teach truth.
Luke 8:1 Luke 10:1-12; Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20; Romans 10:13-15
If we have the right heart we will not fail to recognize the true disciples of Christ, when he sends them, or directs us to invite them into our home. We will recognize the truth. For sure. :)

 

[amadeus]

Knowledge and faith are indeed essential.
I think I understand what you are saying, or perhaps I don't understand. Hopefully I do. :)

One can have accurate knowledge of the truth, yet still grow in knowledge, because a full or complete understanding can never be reached by anyone. Only God possesses that... which is unlimited.

Yes, there is always room for us to grow. The limit is never in God. We are the limit.

Spoiler: Limited knowledge

In the case of Jesus, as an immortal being, he still does not possess all knowledge, but only what the father reveals. However, Jesus has far more knowledge than any person.[/quote]

Spoiler: Limited knowledge

Even so!

In the case of the anointed - those who will become immortal on receiving their heavenly bodies, they know God, and have accurate knowledge of the truth, but still their understanding is not complete, and they continue to grow in knowledge, understanding, and wisdom.

I agree with this at least in part. My knowledge, I know, is limited. I do not insist upon my way or the highway.

All who listen, will benefit, from such knowledge, and spiritual growth.

Is that something you agree with?

Yes!

Full knowledge therefore, is relative to God's. Thus when Paul says, "For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known." (1 Corinthians 13:12), he is referring to a full understanding of what God has given them, by way of knowledge.

To give one example... God revealed his purpose. He did so gradually, but the annointed ones got to know it.
Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Yet, there are many things pertaining to that purpose, which they don't fully understand. Like what they will be.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

That full knowledge will be known at the appointed time... perhaps even at the time they become like Christ, just as they only understood certain things Jesus said, only when they were fulfilled.

Am I close to what you are saying?

Lots of things running in the same direction and some coinciding, but who while running the race is exactly where another is?