Let's discuss..cessation after death?

[The Disciple John]

The Bible is perfectly clear that souls and spirits are imperishable, and upon death those who are saved go to Heaven immediately, whereas those who are not saved go to Hades to await their final judgment.

If it's so perfectly clear, it should not be hard for you to point out where in the Bible it says souls and spirits are imperishable, and upon death those who are saved go to Heaven immediately, whereas those who are not saved go to Hades to await their final judgment.

Why not start with the scriptures that say souls and spirits are imperishable.
I have scriptures here that says souls and spirits are not imperishable.
If you are referring to the spirit that God breathed into man - the breath of life, that is not something that is perishable. It not material, and it's not a person, like the angels which are spirit persons... that will be destroyed if they are disobedient, like the demons.

The soul is perishable.

God created every living soul - Genesis 1:20-21 ... including man - Genesis 2:7

נֶ֣פֶשׁ (ne·p̄eš)
Noun - feminine singular
Strong's 5315: A soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion​

• The life of the person - the soul, is in the blood. - Genesis 9:4-5; Leviticus 17:11-14; Deuteronomy 12:23
• The life of the person - the soul, leaves the body, at death. - Genesis 35:18; 1 Kings 17:21-22
• God required a life for a life - soul for soul. If one took another's life, their life was taken. - Exodus 21:23; Leviticus 24:17-18; Deuteronomy 19:21 What did that involved? Life was taken. That soul died. They were put to death. Genesis 9:6; Numbers 35:31

נֶ֣פֶשׁ (ne·p̄eš)
Noun - feminine singular
Strong's 5315: A soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion​

The soul dies. - Leviticus 19:28; Leviticus 20:6; Leviticus 21:11; Leviticus 22:4; Leviticus 23:29-30; Numbers 5:2; Numbers 6:6; Numbers 23:10; Numbers 31:19; Numbers 35:11-15; Numbers 35:30-31; Deuteronomy 19:6, 11; Deuteronomy 22:26; Deuteronomy 27:25; Joshua 2:13-14; Joshua 10:28-39; Joshua 11:11; Judges 5:18; Judges 16:30; 1 Kings 19:1-4, 10, 14; Job 2:6; Job 11:20; Job 36:14; Psalms 26:9; Psalms 33:18-20; Psalms 40:14; Psalms 56:13; Psalms 78:50; Psalms 94:17-22; Psalms 116:8; Psalms 119:175; Isaiah 53:12; Isaiah 55:3; Jeremiah 38:17, 20; Jeremiah 40:14-15; Ezekiel 3:19; Ezekiel 13:19; Ezekiel 18:4, 20, 27; Jonah 4:8; Matthew 2:20

נֶ֣פֶשׁ (ne·p̄eš)
Noun - feminine singular
Strong's 5315: A soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion​

Matthew 10:28-39; Matthew 16:25-26; Matthew 20:28; Mark 3:4; Mark 14:34; Luke 6:9; John 10:17, 25; John 13:37-38; Acts 2:27; Acts 3:23; James 5:20; 1 John 3:16; Revelation 16:3

ψυχὴν psuché: breath, soul​

Spirits die. Genesis 3:15; Romans 16:20; Hebrews 2:14; Revelation 20:10

 

[The Disciple John]

Johann said:
So, if I understand you correct, since there is no fear then after death but just being "comatized" for eternity I can live it up in this kosmou, eat, drink and be merry, no consequences..and die?[/QUOTE\]

A true Christian has a reverential fear of the true God YHWH, not a morbid fear of him.
The true Christian lives his/her life according to how the true God YHWH says we should live our lives in his word and because of the love and faith they have for the true God, not because they morbidly fear him.
The true Christian believes what Romans 6:23 says, which is that the punishment for sin is death. So when a person dies he/she has paid the price for every sin they did before they died.
The only hope a person has when he/she dies is that God has judged that person who has died worthy of a resurrection. If the true God YHWH judges a person not worthy of a resurrection then that person remains dead for eternity. So a true Christian knows that those who truly love the true God YHWH and exercises faith will get eternal life. A person who is living in this world if he/she is a true Christian they don't live any way they want to, instead they live their lives by exercising faith in God because of the love they have for him and are obedient to his word which shows us what kind of person YHWH God wants us to be. A true Christian is obedient and strives to be the kind of person God wants them to be because of the love they have for the true God, so for that reason they don't want to bring any reproach upon the true God's name or cause the scriptures to be evil spoken of. That's how much a true Christian should love.
To clarify, a true Christian doesn't live his/her life morbidly fearing the true God, but instead they live their lives the way the scriptures say they should live their lives because of the love they have for the true God. Anyone who lives their lives for God because they think they will go to some fiery torment place if they don't, are morbidly fearing the true God, instead of living for God because of the love they supposed to have for him. Only unrighteous or unfaithful people morbidly fear God like that, not the faithful not the righteous, not those who truly love the true God.

So true.
It's so sad that people claim to serve Go, but only for what they can get... just as Satan said.
Job 1:9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing?

 

[The Disciple John]

To await "final judgment" automatically implies NO ANNIHILATION. And just one passage of Scripture (which are the words of Christ) should make this perfectly clear (to those who are not willfully blind):

MARK 9: CHRIST SAYS: ETERNAL DAMNATION FOR THE LOST
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell [Gehenna], into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell [Gehenna], into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell [Gehenna] fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Some questions for the naysayers with answers:
1. Did Christ create the Lake of Fire (Hell = Gehenna) for the Devil and his angels? Absolutely
2. Does Christ know that unquenchable fire = eternal torment? Absolutely
3. Is the metaphor of the "worm" a depiction of eternal torment? Absolutely
4. Will the Devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet be tormented eternally? Absolutely (Rev 20:10)
5. Does that mean that anyone in Hell will also be tormented eternally? Absolutely
6. Has Christ commanded that the Gospel be preached in all the world and to every creature so that no one need go to Hell? Absolutely

Will death and hell also be tormented eternally, and eaten by the worms? Your answer? ___________

 

[Johann]

6. Has Christ commanded that the Gospel be preached in all the world and to every creature so that no one need go to Hell? Absolutely

@Enoch111
You are the only member in this Forum that believe as I do that there is NO annihilation/cessation for those

Are you saying Ecclesiastes does not belong in the Bible, and is not inspired by God?

@The Disciple John
Brother, you are stuck at Ecclesiastes and one greater than Solomon is here and that is Christ Jesus and His Imperatives and in case you forgot, unto Paul was given seven mysteries which was unknown to the Old Covenant saints, even Solomon.
Don't attack other members here and banish them to Sheol should they not agree with you.
J.

 

[Johann]

False notions do come from those who are not in Christ... but make up apostate Christianity, which is about 99.9% of all "Christian" "churches"

Can you prove this?
I guess you are the one percent that is not an apostate?

 

[BarneyFife]

@Enoch111
You are the only member in this Forum that believe as I do that there is NO annihilation/cessation for those

Not even close, my friend. I would say at least half (or close to it) of the active membership believes in eternal torment. It's actually kind of odd that they're not showing up in droves. Maybe the subject is becoming tired for a while--that happens.

 

[BarneyFife]

Understandably Barn, ol' rocky Balboa is definitely not popular but heck, not here to win a beauty contest.
J.:)

He's at nearly the halfway point to becoming a billionaire, though.

 

[Johann]

He's at nearly the halfway point to becoming a billionaire, though.

Believe it or not, I don't like him and seldom watch movies.
Maybe change the picture?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Many are uncomfortable with the topic re Hell and everlasting damnation.
Is total annihilation biblical?


Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


1) "And In hell he lift up his eyes," (kai en to hade eparas tous ophthalmous autou) "And in the hades (place of torments, called hell) he lifted up his eyes," the holding place (abode) of the souls of the responsible unbelievers after death. It is a place of conscious torments, Luk_13:28; Rev_14:10-11.

2) "Being in torments," (huparchon en basanois) "Being or existing in torments," in mental, emotional, and spiritual state and place (location) of torments, with every sense-faculty of body and spirit that he had while living, to see, hear, taste, feel and to think, His final damnation was yet future, Rev_20:11; Rev_20:15.
Garner

There are scripture verses that do seem to imply cessation and there are others verses that don't

let us search the scriptures alone and not commentaries.

Let’s start with the elephant in the room. Are men born with eternal life in them or is Jesus and being born again of the Spirit the only way to eternal life? If we take it all to its conclusion, yes, it is very uncomfortable, but not for those we think it’s uncomfortable for.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Keep in mind that after the resurrection of our Lord things changed.
J.

Not concerning death Joe, we all still die, therefore all still go to hell/grave just as Jesus did when he died.

You said you didn't really want to talk about hell, but it is a Bible subject sir. Because of ignorance it really brings reproach upon Jehovah's name. Better to know what it is, therefore you can educate others what it is, and what it's future will be.

 

[Brakelite]

As we can see Ecclesiastes has nothing to do with Gospel truth, but has everything to do with revealing the mindset of the unsaved.

So we can ignore it as lies? Could we do that with Romans 7 which is about an unconverted Paul?

 

[Brakelite]

I think it is so cool that the NT agrees with the OT so that there can be no argument or misunderstanding...ummm, okay, maybe I'm being a little hasty. Oh well, I'm not arguing with scripture anyway. As our dear brother Enoch said, is all very clear.
KJV Matthew 3:12
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

KJV Isaiah 5:24
24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

KJV Daniel 2:35
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.



.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Everlasting is everlasting.

Nope. Anionios has variable meanings.
It should be translated as age-lasting or age-during when pertaining to our physical realm. Maybe you missed my previous post #106 or ignored it. That's understandable, the traditional view by both Catholics and Prostestants is that Hell is eternal. But anionios also means ages, generations, lifetimes, epochs, when applied to our temporal realm. Hades and death will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire AND BE NO MORE. All former things will pass away, be burned up (as in 2 Peter 3:10) and the New Heaven and New earth will appear.
The crucial verse is Matthew 25:46
The KJV translators used the same word, anionios, two different ways because they sensed the difference.
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

YLT
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Just my view - that will always gets flack. I guess Christians approve of eternal torment and are okay with that. I wonder if their continued knowledge of people burning in Hell will disrupt their eternal peace and joy in Heaven?

 

[Brakelite]

And how can we forget this one...
KJV Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts...

Which lo and behold, address with this...

KJV Hebrews 10:27
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
KJV Revelation 20:9
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Brakelite]

Just my view - that will always gets flack. I guess Christians approve of eternal torment and are okay with that. I wonder if their continued knowledge of people burning in Hell will disrupt their eternal peace and joy in Heaven?

Oh, that's a thought provoking concept eh. Are all our natural sensibilities and sympathies removed so that we may look upon the suffering of our families with joy and gladness, celebrating God's justice, mercy, and grace? Is such a state of affairs a reflection of the image of Christ with which we are now blessed with for all eternity? Now isn't that something to look forward to.

 

[Taken]

Searching the Scriptures includes "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" or properly interpreting the Truth according to what Christ has said, not according to what an unregenerated man (one who is "under the sun") has postulated.

Agree.

@Enoch111

What is the context of the misleading thought that "the dead know nothing" (Eccl 9:5)?

The dead know nothing.
True, for that which has not life in it...

As we can see Ecclesiastes has nothing to do with Gospel truth, but has everything to do with revealing the mindset of the unsaved. The Bible is perfectly clear that souls and spirits are imperishable, and upon death those who are saved go to Heaven immediately, whereas those who are not saved go to Hades to await their final judgment.

@Johann

Difficult less each part (rightly divided) of the whole man (body, soul, spirit) is considered, with or without God. (per individual men.)

Particular “souls” are perishable, are imperishable.
Particular “spirits” are perishable, are imperishable.

*souls, that are “SAVED”, ARE imperishable.(restored back to very good, as it was when given)..Pss 23:3
*souls, that are “NOT SAVED”...ARE perishable. Gods Breath Departs, returns to God, soul destroyed.

*spirit, of natural man. IS natural. IS mans “natural “spirit” TRUTH in his heart”. IS imperishable, SHALL die.
*spirit, of spiritual man, IS “natural mans natural spirit” in Heart.
Heart circumcision, New Heart given to replace circumcised, (cut off) Heart; Seed of God given in New Heart;
Birth from new Seed (Born again);
Gods SEED, called Christ.
How, By, IS “via Gods “Spirit of Truth” ie HS enters into New Heart.
Born IN that mans New Heart, IS Gods TRUTH.
THAT NEW “SPIRIT”, is NEVER imperishable.

Body that is physically alive....WITHOUT saved soul, WITHOUT born again spirit......WITHOUT God, NOT IN God.
IS DEAD...(to God); because he IS separated from God, NOT WITH God.
IS CALLED...WITHOUT the TRUTH (Gods TRUTH) NOT “IN” that man.

Body that is physically alive;...WITH God, IN God
Crucified with Christ, Lives IN Jesus’ risen body, WITH saved soul, WITH born again spirit...
IS ALIVE...(to God); because HS is “WITH” ***AND***’IN” that man.
*body washed, sanctified, prepared, justified for rising in uncorrupted flesh.
^^^HE NOT subject to WRATH.
^^^HE resurrected to occupy Christ’s millennial Kingdom. Ie Rapture.
1 Thes 4:17

Body that is physically dead;...WITH God, IN God.
Crucified with Christ, WITH saved soul, WITH born again spirit...
IS ALIVE...(to God);
* body, washed, sanctified, prepared, justified for rising in uncorrupted flesh.
* soul, saved, restored
* spirit, born again of Gods seed
^^^HE resurrected to occupy Christ’s millennial Kingdom. Ie Rapture.
1 Thes 4:15-16

Body that is physically alive...WITH God...BUT NOT IN God.
NOT crucified with Christ, lives in his own flesh, natural truth, soul NOT saved, NOT born again......BUT Hears, Believes in God, Believes in Christ Jesus...
AND....continues (endures) Believing to the day of his physical death.....
...SHALL BE SAVED on the day of his Physical Death.
...Physical DEATH...body buried, soul rises to heaven, spirit rises to heaven.
...BODY waits, UNTIL AFTER millennial reign, then Body raised in Glory, God resurrects, First resurrection, occupies New Earth.
1 Thes 4:14
Rev 20:5

Body that is physically alive...WITH God...But NOT IN God.
Believes in God...DOES NOT believe in Christ Jesus the Lamb of God...
...SHALL suffer Wrath of the Lamb (SEALS)
...SHALL suffer Devils Wrath (TRUMPS) physical death.
...MANY turn to Christ, become saved, born again, SUFFER devastating bodily deaths. Saved souls rise to heaven, Born again spirits rise to heaven. Body’s risen AFTER millennial reign.

Body that is physically alive...
Does NOT believe in God...Does NOT believe in Christ Jesus...
...Body, Dies in sin. Soul sent to hell, waits judgement.
...Body, Alive during trib, suffers Wrath, some die, (soul go to hell, wait).
...Remaining alive during trib.
...SHALL suffer the Wrath of the Lamb (SEALS)
...SHALL suffer Gods Wrath (TRUMPS)
...SHALL suffer Gods Wrath AND Vengeance (VIALS) (for persecution of believers)...
...SHALL be raised bodily in hell, living soul and body judged, sentenced,
(Natural Spirit NEVER born again)
...Judgement...See the Lord, Believe, Bow, ie Worship the Lord;
...Judgement per Gods BOOKS of evidence.
...Name blotted out, does not appear in Gods book of life.
...Name never entered, does not appear in Lambs book of life.
.......(**MYSTERIOUS “LITTLE BOOK” ?)
...Judged DEAD, separated from God.
...Sentence...Life in Living soul returns to God...
Lifeless Body, Lifeless soul, DESTROYED, (burned in fire pit), FORGOTTEN.

FIRE PIT in Hell, is the same FIRE PIT, Established FOR fallen angels (who ARE spirits and can NOT literally die) and the false prophet. (Also a spirit??)
Judged Dead, separated from God.
Forever, “they” (?) burn, but can not die.
“THEY” yes —->For ever separated from God, from Gods restored anew Heavens, and Earth; From Gods Saved souls, spirits, uncorrupted men.

And there is ONE mysterious but eluded to wondering...
* Scripture..John told to NOT expressly reveal contents of; ”the LITTLE book”.
* Scripture...souls thrown into outer darkness.
Are these souls, so defiant against God, that KEEP life from God in these souls, thus alive forever, thus suffer forever, separated from God, and yet exist forever, IN OUTER darkness, and can not escape? Mysterious.
*Rev 10: 9-10
*Matt 8:12
*Matt 22:13
*Matt 25:30

* One, DEVIOUS for sure, is one, who tries to SNEAK into the WEDDING Ceremony...IS plainly spotted, as NOT having on WEDDING ATTIRE (ie God given White robe.) and is cast into OUTER Darkness.
* Matt 22: 11-12-13

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Johann]

נֶ֣פֶשׁ (ne·p̄eš)
Noun - feminine singular
Strong's 5315: A soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

Glory to God,
Taken

Absolutely, all glory to Elohim Taken
J.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Oh, that's a thought provoking concept eh. Are all our natural sensibilities and sympathies removed so that we may look upon the suffering of our families with joy and gladness, celebrating God's justice, mercy, and grace? Is such a state of affairs a reflection of the image of Christ with which we are now blessed with for all eternity? Now isn't that something to look forward to.

It was meant to provoke. The point is, our peace and joy will be perfect. If such a place existed for eternity, then our memories of all evil would have to be erased since we could not bare the knowledge of billions suffering. OR the more likely scenario is that it just plain won't exist. This harmonizes with the fact that there will be no more tears or pain. Does this mean in heaven only? I think evil and suffering will come to an end.
This concept is based on God's pillar of Justice that we have always seen in scripture, His punishments were fair and for a time. We learn from punishment so that we can change. How can the condemned learn a lesson in order that he might change? Their fate is sealed. So punishment is temporal and their destruction is complete and finite.

 

[Johann]

"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

So, for believers it will be "age-during"...wonder how long is that?
For unbelievers it would be "age-during" let me guess, final utter annihilation?
J.

 

[marks]

it is a hard pill to swallow when you realize you theology is wrong.

Can the Spirit, or Soul, Be Destroyed?

I thought you said no commentaries . . .

Humph.