James Was Not Talking about Faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation

[farouk]

Did you actually mean Hebrews 12 here?

Hebrews 12:7 KJV
7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But maybe you did, because as I'm thinking about this verse, yes, the Law was changed, because we endure chastening as sons, not judgment as sinners.

Hebrews 12:12 KJV
12) Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

And this verse tells us we can in fact lift up those hanging hands and feeble knees.

But were you thinking of a different chapter?

Much love!

Sorry; I transposed those digits in my haste: Hebrews 7.12. (The other ref. was Hebrews 7.19)

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

(and)

"For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God."

Thanks! @marks...

 

[marks]

Sorry; I transposed those digits in my haste: Hebrews 7.12. (The other ref. was Hebrews 7.19)

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

(and)

"For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God."

Thanks! @marks...

Those are more specific, still, when I thought about those other places, they speak the same things. God is good, and His Word is perfect!

Much love!

 

[Titus]

No it doesn't because too whom much is given, much is required. Those who die on their deathbed are not given the same requirement as those who lived out their faith and had time to study the Bible, and apply it to their lives.

"Not given the same requirement as those who lived out their faith and had time to study their Bible"

First, You are coming from a false premise that God only requires belief only from those on their death beds to be saved.

These scenarios you are giving are mans reasoning to get around Gods ordered/ arranged gospel plan of salvation.

I'm not going along with a false premise.

Forget about the deathbed argument that is always used to get around what Jesus said in His gospel.

Let's look at anyone, who needs to be saved. They all ,no matter their situation must meet Gods requirements in order for Him to save them.

They are,
A Heart (Mind) that desires to know God.Faith
A Heart that is willing to give their life over to God. Obedience/work

Without both You cannot be accepted by God.

To say I truly desire to know God( True Biblical Faith).

Yet not have a mind that does not also desire to submit my will to the God I am seeking to know.

Is a person who does not meet Gods conditions to be saved.

Someone who claims they have faith only. And that faith will save them.
Does not know God.
The Bible teaches those who have no desire to obey God just believe only.
Do not know Him!

Your false premise is not supported by scripture.

1John 2:3-5
He whom says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in Him.
But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know we are in Him.

God expects everyone to meet the same requirements to be saved.
But due to physical limitations as I have already pointed out.

This does not change Gods ordained plan on how He has chosen to save mankind.

So, anyone who is on their deathbed must meet the same requirements as anyone one else.

They must have more in their heart than just belief.
They must desire to obey all that God has commanded them.
I would teach every person Jesus' gospel. All of it.
Whether they are unable to physically be baptized or not.
God requires obedience from everyone who is accountable to the gospel.

If a person physically is hindered from being baptized.
If that person could be baptized they better have the HEART to want to be baptized.
If they think that not obeying God just believing in Christ, is enough.
They have created a gospel that Jesus and His apostles never taught.

Faith alone and no desire to obey cannot save anyone.
Faith alone and no desire to obey God on your deathbed cannot save.

It is the same gospel for everyone that is accountable to it. Regardless of circumstances.

Your example of being hired on the job does not represent the true gospel.
That example is once again based off of the false premise that you do nothing initially to be saved ie no obedience.

God does not "hire" anyone who does not first obey His gospel.
There is nothing to obey, In your job hiring story.

In reality there are requirements to getting hired.
One example of obedience to get hired is,
You must submit to drug testing and to be hired, obey the company's rules on the use of illegal substances.
I don't like this argument. It proves nothing.

Thus verses like Romans 11:6 cannot apply for you. While Paul is referring to the Law of Moses because of the Jew not accepting their Messiah Jesus Christ, you strive to read this verse as only applying to the works of the Law of Moses only and not works in general.

This has nothing to do with what I believe saves us today.
You know the Jews lacked faith. They were trying to be saved by works.

I don't teach you can be saved by works of man.
And I dont teach you can be saved without faith.

The law of Christ is what must be believed and obeyed today in order to be saved.
1Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who no not God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our lord Jesus Christ.
Christ's law must be obeyed,
James 1:25
But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a DOER of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

Jesus law is His will, His new covenant, new testament.
His gospel conditions require obedience not just faith only.

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Faith in Christ and working His will and testament is what saves us.

Again, 1 John 3:23 says to believe in Jesus is a commandment. This is not a WORK but a belief in Jesus. So this proves there are grace commands. It does not mean it is a work command or a Sanctification Command.

Wrong Sir. Every commandment must be obeyed!
Obedience is work.
The only way a commandment is not a work is if commandments are not to be obeyed.
Do you know of any commandments that do not require obedience?

James 2:20
But do you want to know O foolish man, that faith without obedience is dead?

I bring them up because you have a one salvation fits all package mindset like Perpetual Belief Alone Christians.

So, there is more than one way to be saved?
More than one gospel from Jesus?

Babies are not proof of different requirements to be saved in Jesus' gospel.
Simply because they are without understanding.
If an adult was born severely mentally disabled to the point he was not competent to obey Jesus' gospel.
He would not be required to obey the gospel to be saved.
This like babies does not prove those who are accountable get saved by different requirements.

Also this is not favoritism but fairness. For God does require more from whom he has given greater ability.
God is capable of equal measure based upon the gifts He has given to the individual.
This also does not change the standard for How God has ordered His gospel plan to save mankind.

), it seems highly unlikely that this would happen so soon with a new convert who is changed by the Lord's good ways. The thief also did not appear to speak as being a disciple of Jesus. For the thief speaks of how this man (Jesus) has done nothing wrong. So he is not speaking with familiarity as if He ever knew Jesus at any point in time (to be a disciple).

Sir, your arguments on the thief are just your think sos, mere speculation.
If you cannot back it up with scripture. Then you have no case.

Besides, even if the thief was water baptized by John, Peter makes it clear that baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (sin), but it is an answer of having an already good conscience towards God (1 Peter 3:21). So John would have them confess of their sins to God, and then he would baptize them in that their conscience is cleaned as a ceremonial act that they were cleansed spiritually by the real reality of seeking forgiveness with the Lord. Baptism never truly saved in the salvific sense ever.

You just taught the opposite of what the Bible teaches, on the purpose of John's baptism.
You say it does not save. Gods word teaches it does save.

For the forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 26:28
For this is My shed blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Jesus's blood was shed in order to do what? Answer forgive sins!

John's baptism did what?

Mark 1:4
John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

You changed the purpose of John's baptism.
Be consistent and tell me that Jesus' shed blood was also not for the remission of sins? I know you will not use that argument!
You are making lots of contradictions Sir.

So a baby who did nothing and dies and is saved shows favoritism. For you admit babies who die are saved.

Nope. Babies are not yet given ability.
Therefore what would be favoritism would be to hold them accountable.

I agree that a person has to be willing to obey. But if they die and did no works then they are saved by faith alone and or by God's grace and not by any works. That's the point your not getting

No Sir! They cannot be saved by faith alone.
A person unable to move on their deathbed can have a repentant heart.
You are teaching me folks can be saved on their deathbed that do not repent just believe only.

Again, God does not save those who's hearts are not willing to give all their lives/will to God.
Faith and obedience saves. Never just belief only.

We are not talking about insincere people. We are talking about those who genuinely want to seek forgiveness with God and those who do will of course have a desire to forsake their sin and not play games. But the point is that if they die and cannot do any works.... they are saved by faith alone because they did not do anything laborious to be saved.

Exactly my point!!! They have the right heart/mind!
Who has the right heart that just believes but does not repent?

 

[farouk]

You teach Christians do lose their salvation because they go back into sin.

@Titus If they continue to live and die in habitual sin, then whatever they may have professed, it is likely that they were never born again in the first place, rather than being categorized as those who were supposedly saved, then lost.

Romans 8 is a tremendously assuring chapter for the true believer.

 

[Titus]

@Titus If they continue to live and die in habitual sin, then whatever they may have professed, it is likely that they were never born again in the first place, rather than being categorized as those who were supposedly saved, then lost.

Romans 8 is a tremendously assuring chapter for the true believer.

There is no teaching anywhere in the new testament that says christians cannot be lost.

If a Christian cannot forsake God and become an apostate, then God has taken away our free will.

1John 3:15
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

John is teaching saved christians in Chapter 3.

 

[farouk]

There is no teaching anywhere in the new testament that says christians cannot be lost.

If a Christian cannot forsake God and become an apostate, then God has taken away our free will.

1John 3:15
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

John is teaching saved christians in Chapter 3.

If they were subsequently lost, they were not true believers in the first place. By definition, an apostate has light but not life. 1 John 2.19 speaks of those who departed who 'were not of us'.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you really believe in, saved Monday, lost again Tuesday, saved again Wednesday, not sure about Thursday...etc.?

I do believe indeed in confessing and forsaking sin; this is Scriptural and the characteristic of the truly born again; but those who live and die in sin - whatever their profession - can hardly be regarded even as having been saved in the first place.

Philippians 1.6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ".

Well, first, the Spirit convicts even this world of it's sin because they don't believe on Jesus (See: John 16:8-9).
So there is no day that goes by for a believer where they are totally lost unless they are not sensitive to the Holy Spirit convicting them of sin (Which means there is a bigger problem that they have in that they have hardened their heart by the deceitfulness of sin).

Many OSAS Proponents today (Not all) believe they can live in sin and do horrible things and still be saved. I remember talking with an OSAS believer in person who admitted to me that they could mow down a crowd of people with a submachine gun and they would still be saved while doing so. If so then we must claim that men like Hitler could be saved in the moment of his killing the Jews only if he had a belief alone on Jesus. The OSAS Proponent believes that sin only causes problems for the believer here in this life and it does not affect their right standing with God. God will reward the OSAS Proponent with Heaven despite what evil they do here. But if this is true, then God would have to agree with their sin in order to save them in the afterlife because they also believe sin is what separates the wicked from God in the afterlife. Why doesn't God just punish an unbeliever here in this life for not believing in Jesus and just force save them to believe in Jesus after they die? Does a belief on Jesus really make a sinning believer a changed and better person? Will God remove a believer's drug addiction or adulterous habits from them in Heaven? Why doesn't God just change everyone after they die? Why doesn't God just force save everyone if that is the case? Also, the moral implications of a belief that says you can sin as much as you want with the thinking you are saved will naturally lead a person to live like the devil and it will not lead a person to focus on the many verses in the Bible that teach us to obey God and to live holy (Which pretty much negates a good majority of what the New Testament teaches; How so? Just sit down and start writing down all the commands in the New Testament. Then write every place you can see in the New Testament that talks about holiness, and sanctification, etc.). Anyways, a believer will be led into a lifestyle of sin as a result of having an OSAS type belief (that says you can sin and still be saved). This is obvious by men like George Sodini who was a huge OSAS proponent and yet he ended up becoming a mass murderer whereby he took his own life. George even wrote a suicide letter in saying how he would be saved (despite his evil), too.

George Sodini
(Eternal Security Proponent - Mass Murderer and Suicide Victim).

By what you said here (in that a person is saved despite their sin), this makes me believe you are not in disagreement with George Sodini and you believe he is saved (Which is wrong because it makes it seem like God is rewarding somebody with Heaven despite their evil). This belief is wrong because it ignores everything we know about morality (or God's goodness). Paul says, "And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just." (Romans 3:8). Yet, this is exactly what OSAS is proposing. You can do evil and good will come (Heaven will be for you) despite that. Romans 3:8 is in context to Romans 3:1 that is talking about the Jew and circumcision (Which is a part of the Old Covenant Law and not the New Covenant Law). The Jews were saying that the New Covenant believer was doing evil by not being circumcised. They were falsely slandering obedient and faithful believers under the New Covenant.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you really believe in, saved Monday, lost again Tuesday, saved again Wednesday, not sure about Thursday...etc.?

I do believe indeed in confessing and forsaking sin; this is Scriptural and the characteristic of the truly born again; but those who live and die in sin - whatever their profession - can hardly be regarded even as having been saved in the first place.

Philippians 1.6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ".

Philippians 1:6 is in context to Paul seeing their track record in that they obeyed God even in Paul's absence.

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,...” (Philippians 2:12).

But Paul was not saying it was a guarantee because Paul shortly tell them to do this:

Philippians 2:12
“...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

So taking Philippians 2:12 into consideration, we know that the promise of the Lord in that what He begin in the Philippian believers he will finish unto the day of Christ.... if they work out their salvation with fear and trembling.

But if Philippians 1:6 was the only verse in your Bible, then I can see how you might be right. But there are tons of other verses that we have to take into context that simply does not prove OSAS.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you really believe in, saved Monday, lost again Tuesday, saved again Wednesday, not sure about Thursday...etc.?

I do believe indeed in confessing and forsaking sin; this is Scriptural and the characteristic of the truly born again; but those who live and die in sin - whatever their profession - can hardly be regarded even as having been saved in the first place.

Philippians 1.6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ".

Eternal Security or OSAS is probably one of the most grossest Anti-Scriptural beliefs in the church today. It's just not even remotely true. OSAS can easily be disproved by pointing out the surrounding context of a verse that supposedly proves it. For there hasn't been a verse (that supposedly proves Eternal Security) that I was not able to refute using Scripture.

In fact, I am not sure how a person can read the Bible and ignore all the verses that refute the unbiblical teaching of Eternal Security. For when a person reads their Bible they will see a refutation of Eternal Security in the majority of the New Testament (and in some cases, depending on the book, they will see a refutation of Eternal Security on almost every page). Therefore, I beg everyone here (who believes in Eternal Security and who has an open heart to receive the seed of God's Word into their heart) to re-examine what they believe and look at the following verses by way of prayer. For if I am wrong, I have nothing to lose (because I do not believe in Works ALONE Salvationism; I believe in Relationship-ism with God that naturally yields the fruit of God flowing through in my life). But if the Eternal Security Proponent is wrong, they have everything to lose. Anyways, here is a...

Long List of Verses Refuting Eternal Security
or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved):

• Matthew 7:21-23 - Jesus only “knows” those who do Father God’s will; all others are practicing lawlessness.

• Matthew 10:33 - Whoever denies Jesus before men He will also deny before His Father in heaven.

• Matthew 12:31-32 - Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This means verbally cursing or speaking bad about the Holy Spirit.

• Matthew 13:18-23 - 2 people types (no root, unfruitful) come to eternal life, and then return to the lost state.

• Matthew 18:21-35, Mark 11:25-26 - Forgive men’s sins against you, or God won’t forgive your sins against Him.

• Matthew 25:44-46 - Those who do not help even one needy soul will go into everlasting punishment.

• Mark 8:35-36 - Whoever desires to save his (old) life, or gain the whole world, will lose his soul.

• Mark 9:43-48 - Get rid of whatever causes you to sin; it will cause you to be cast into hell fire.

• Mark 13:13 - But he who endures with his faith to the end (of his life) shall be saved eternally (Also see Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Colossians 1:22-23, 1 Timothy 4:16, Hebrews 10:35-39, Revelation 2:10)

• Luke 9:23-25 - Whoever does not deny himself for Jesus’ sake will be destroyed (eternal death).

• Luke 14:26-33 - Jesus warns prospective believers how difficult and costly it is to be His disciple… will they have enough to finish this life of placing Him above all else, bearing their crosses, etc.?

• Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus taught that the man who was more justified was the one who humbled himself and cried out to God for mercy before God vs. the man who did not do so.

• John 3:19, 20 - An important point about "The Condemnation" is that those who loved darkness hate the Light because they loved the pleasure of their own evil deeds, unless of course their deeds should be reproved (that is).

• John 12:25 - He who loves his life in this world will lose it (eternal life) later.

• John 15:1-6 - Christians who do not bear fruit (are not abiding in Jesus) are thrown into the fire.

• John 17:3 - Eternal life is actually “knowing” Father God and Jesus Christ. Do you really know them?

• Romans 1:29-32 - Anyone practicing such sins is deserving of death due to God’s wrath on unrighteousness.

• Romans 2:5-11 - Wrath is coming to those who are unrighteously self-seeking and do not obey the truth.

• Rom 6:15-23 - Be a slave of God and to righteousness for holiness, resulting in holiness and eternal life.

(Continued in next post):

 

[Bible Highlighter]

• Romans 8:1-8 - Anyone who is carnally-minded (is living according to the flesh) will die spiritually.

• Romans 8:12-13 - We are not debtors to the flesh; if we live according to the flesh, we will die.

• Romans 11:20-22 - Fear unbelief, that if you do not continue to have faith, you will be cut off like the OT Jews.

• 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Anyone practicing such sins is unrighteous, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.

• 1 Corinthians 15:2 - You are saved, if you hold fast to that word (the gospel) … unless you believed in vain.

• 2 Corinthians 7:10 - Godly sorrow over sin leads Christians to repent, which leads to salvation.

• 2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine and test yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.

• Galatians 5:1-4 - Christians are warned: those who later have attempted to be justified by the Law of Moses (or Law Alone-ism), … have been estranged from Christ and have fallen from grace.

• Galatians 5:19-21 - Anyone practicing such sins (the works of the flesh) will not inherit the kingdom of God.

• Galatians 5:24 - Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

• Galatians 6:7-8 - Don't be deceived: sowing to the flesh reaps corruption, sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.

• Ephesians 5:3-6 - Believers practicing such sins will not inherit God’s kingdom, but will incur the wrath of God.

• Ephesians 5:25-27 - Jesus gave Himself for a glorious Church which will be sanctified, holy, without blemish.

• Philippians 2:12-16 - Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, holding fast the word of life …
  
  
• … so that: (1) you may become blameless, and (2) Paul did not labor in vain concerning you.

• Philippians 3:7-14 - Paul presses on to attaining the goal of gaining Christ, knowing Him, and being found in Him.

• Colossians 1:21-29 - Jesus’ desires (and Paul labors to warn and teach) to present “holy and blameless” and “perfect in Christ Jesus” those who continue in faith, not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

• Colossians 3:5-6 - Believers practicing such sins beware: the wrath of God will come upon sons of disobedience.

• 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith.

• 1 Timothy 5:11-15 - Some younger widows are condemned; they cast off their first faith and turned after Satan.

• 1 Timothy 6:3-4 - Paul says that if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Christ is proud knowing nothing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

• 1 Timothy 6:9-14 - Greed and love of money drowns men in destruction and perdition; Instead, pursue godliness and lay hold on eternal life (and keep this command without blame).

• 1 Timothy 6:17-19 - Commands for the rich (yes, Christians) to follow, so they may lay hold on eternal life.

• Titus 1:1-3 - Faith and knowledge of the truth lead to godliness, in the hope of eternal life.

• Hebrews 2:1-4 - Warning about drifting away: how shall we escape, if we drift and neglect so great a salvation?

• Hebrews 3:6 - We belong to Christ, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

• Hebrews 3:12-15 - Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, being hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, for we are only partakers of Christ if we hold steadfast to the end.

• Hebrews 3:17-19 - The OT Jews who sinned (did not obey) could not enter into God’s rest (the Promised Land).

• Hebrews 4:1 - Let us fear lest any of us come short of entering God’s rest (God’s promise of salvation).

• Hebrews 4:11 - Be diligent to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.

• Hebrews 6:4-8 - Those enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.

• Hebrews 10:26-27 - If we sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, expect God’s fiery judgment.

• Hebrews 10:29-31 - The Lord will judge His people. “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord.

• Hebrews 10:35-39 - Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.

• Hebrews 12:14-15 - Pursue holiness (without which no one will see the Lord) lest anyone falls short of God’s grace.

• Hebrews 12:15-17 - Many believers become defiled, and finding no place for repentance, are rejected.

• James 1:12-16 - Love the Lord, endure temptation to sin; do not be deceived, sin results in spiritual death.

• 1 Peter 1:8-9 - Believing, you will receive the end of your (enduring) faith—the salvation of your souls.

• 2 Peter 1:10-11 - Be diligent to make your call & election sure, so you won’t stumble, but gain the kingdom.

• 2 Peter 2:1, 14 - The false prophets (i.e. believers) are those who have eyes full of adultery and cannot cease from sin.

• 2 Peter 2:20-22 - If Christians are overcome by worldly sins, they are worse off than they were before knowing the way of righteousness, they turned from the holy commandment delivered to them.

• 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, God will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

• 1 John 2:3-5 - We are sure that we “know” God and are “in” Him, if we keep His commandments.

• 1 John 2:24-25 - If God’s word does not abide in us, the Father and the Son will not abide in us, nor we in Them, and we will not receive the promised eternal life.

• 1 John 3:15 - If you hate your brother, you’re like a murderer who has no eternal life abiding in him.

• Jude 1:4 NIV - There are those false believers who turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality

• Jude 1:20-21 - 3 things for Christians to do, while looking for God’s mercy unto eternal life.

• Revelation 2:10 - Be faithful until death and Jesus will give you the crown of (eternal) life (Also see Mark 13:13 above).

• Revelation 2:11 - He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death (eternal death).

• Revelation 3:5 - He who overcomes will not have his name blotted out from the Book of Life.

• Revelation 14:9-11 - Those that worship the Beast and take his mark drink of the wine of the Wrath of God and will be thrown in the Lake of Fire.

• Revelation 21:8 - Anyone practicing such sins will go into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

• Revelation 21:27 - Anyone practicing such sins is not in the Book of Life, and will not enter the New Jerusalem.

• Revelation 22:14 - Anyone who does not do God’s commandments does not have the right to the tree of life.

• Revelation 22:15 - Anyone practicing such sins will be outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.

• Revelation 22:18 - If any man takes away from the prophecy of the book (i.e. the Scriptures), God will take away their name out of the Book of Life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you really believe in, saved Monday, lost again Tuesday, saved again Wednesday, not sure about Thursday...etc.?

I do believe indeed in confessing and forsaking sin; this is Scriptural and the characteristic of the truly born again; but those who live and die in sin - whatever their profession - can hardly be regarded even as having been saved in the first place.

Philippians 1.6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ".

Eternal Security is not true because the apostle Paul says,

“But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).

An infidel is an unbeliever or heathen.

Infidel | Definition of Infidel by Webster's Online Dictionary

So if a father who is a Christian does not provide for his own child, he is worse than an unbeliever. Eternal Security will not save him.

 

[marks]

For there hasn't been a verse (that supposedly proves Eternal Security) that I was not able to refute using Scripture.

Interestingly, I've had the exact opposite experience.

Every passage I've seen presented to show that the spirit children of God may yet die condemned in sin, I've found none of them actually teach that.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

And then you have one's like this, above, that if the born again actually were to die again, then this passage would cease to be true. And that won't happen.

And this one,

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

But if we are to believe what these passages tell us, then where is the place for the eternal death of God's redeemed? When would they die, if this is true:

Hebrews 7:25 KJV
25) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

If your understanding of one passage appears to make another passage untrue, a deeper look is needed. We interpret the less plain by the more plain, and these are plainly stated.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Philippians 1:6 is in context to Paul seeing their track record in that they obeyed God even in Paul's absence.

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,...” (Philippians 2:12).

But Paul was not saying it was a guarantee because Paul shortly tell them to do this:

Philippians 2:12
“...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

So taking Philippians 2:12 into consideration, we know that the promise of the Lord in that what He begin in the Philippian believers he will finish unto the day of Christ.... if they work out their salvation with fear and trembling.

But if Philippians 1:6 was the only verse in your Bible, then I can see how you might be right. But there are tons of other verses that we have to take into context that simply does not prove OSAS.

No, you are adding a condition where it does not exist, effectively changing God's Word.

Philippians 1:3-7 KJV
3) I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,
4) Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,
5) For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
6) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
7) Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.

What is Paul's confidence? It is in God, who does the good work in you, and will continue to do so.

Was Paul's confidence misplaced? Or rightly placed?

That Paul tells them to "work out", katergadzomai, what God is "working in", ergon, this does not negate the fact that God is working in us, and Paul expresses his confidence that God will continue to do so "until the day of Jesus Christ", not, "until you can't cut the mustard anymore".

For He has promised . . . I will never leave you, nor forsake you.

So I ask you. Will God ever forsake you?

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Interestingly, I've had the exact opposite experience.

Every passage I've seen presented to show that the spirit children of God may yet die condemned in sin, I've found none of them actually teach that.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

And then you have one's like this, above, that if the born again actually were to die again, then this passage would cease to be true. And that won't happen.

And this one,

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

But if we are to believe what these passages tell us, then where is the place for the eternal death of God's redeemed? When would they die, if this is true:

Hebrews 7:25 KJV
25) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

If your understanding of one passage appears to make another passage untrue, a deeper look is needed. We interpret the less plain by the more plain, and these are plainly stated.

Much love!

Again, the danger with OSAS is that it is a concept that will inevitably lead a person to treat God's grace as a license for immorality or as a safety net to sin in some way. For this kind of plan of salvation to work... God would have to agree with a believer's sin or turn a blind eye to it. But seeing God is fair and just and good, this is just not even a remote possibility.

If you are of the OSAS variety of following reverse Calvinism (in that you cannot help but to do good), or you are a robot after you are saved by making a one time decision in accepting Jesus as your Savior, this also is not biblical in the slightest sense.

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).​

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).​

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​

We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Not just that but it is totally illogical. Why would God make robots to praise God when He can force everyone to do that? How does God get any glory in that if He forces His creation to love Him? Does a one time decision really make a person morally better? I don't think so.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Interestingly, I've had the exact opposite experience.

Every passage I've seen presented to show that the spirit children of God may yet die condemned in sin, I've found none of them actually teach that.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

And then you have one's like this, above, that if the born again actually were to die again, then this passage would cease to be true. And that won't happen.

And this one,

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

But if we are to believe what these passages tell us, then where is the place for the eternal death of God's redeemed? When would they die, if this is true:

Hebrews 7:25 KJV
25) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

If your understanding of one passage appears to make another passage untrue, a deeper look is needed. We interpret the less plain by the more plain, and these are plainly stated.

Much love!

1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother no eternal life abides in you. 1 John 3:1-3 does not undo that truth. It still means what it says.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Interestingly, I've had the exact opposite experience.

Every passage I've seen presented to show that the spirit children of God may yet die condemned in sin, I've found none of them actually teach that.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

And then you have one's like this, above, that if the born again actually were to die again, then this passage would cease to be true. And that won't happen.

And this one,

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

But if we are to believe what these passages tell us, then where is the place for the eternal death of God's redeemed? When would they die, if this is true:

Hebrews 7:25 KJV
25) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

If your understanding of one passage appears to make another passage untrue, a deeper look is needed. We interpret the less plain by the more plain, and these are plainly stated.

Much love!

How do you not apply verses like Matthew 5:28-30?
Jesus warns against those who look upon a woman in lust will lead to being cast bodily into hellfire?

What about Matthew 13:41-42?
It says the Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all things that offend (sins) and all who work iniquity and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

 

[marks]

Ephesians 5:3-6 - Believers practicing such sins will not inherit God’s kingdom, but will incur the wrath of God.

Selected at random . . .

Ephesians 5:1-16 KJV
1) Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2) And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6) Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7) Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8) For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9) (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11) And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12) For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13) But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14) Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15) See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16) Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

Does this passage teach that the born again die again? That sin will eternally separate from God those whom are reconciled to Him? Having "received the reconciliation"?

This passage, when you look to the context, teaches us that these behaviors are for those who do not know God, so don't be like them, because you do.

And it does not negate such passages as, "you shall appear with Him in glory", as if that won't happen.

There is a parallel passage,

1 Corinthians 6:9-20 KJV
9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12) All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
13) Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14) And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15) Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16) What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17) But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18) Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19) What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20) For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

He owns you now, so do what is right, and not what is wrong. But there is nothing here that says the forgiven will be condemned, or the born again will die again, or that even this sin separated the reconciled and redeemed from Him Who declares them justified.

Romans 8:31-34 KJV
31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Much love!

 

[marks]

1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother no eternal life abides in you. 1 John 3:1-3 does not undo that truth. It still means what it says.

1 John 3:14-18 KJV
14) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15) Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16) Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17) But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18) My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Murderers don't have eternal life, and the one who hates their brother is a murderer.

So what does it say about the one who hates their brother? They don't have eternal life, right?

Do you go on to think then that there is someone who has eternal life, then comes to hate their brother, and loses that eternal life? How is it that they would have eternal life, and then go on to hate their brother, if no one who hates their brother has eternal life?

Wouldn't the fact of their hatred mean that they don't actually have eternal life?

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's correct. So what does it say about the one who hates their brother? They don't have eternal life, right?

Do you go on to think then that there is someone who has eternal life, then comes to hate their brother, and loses that eternal life? How is it that they would have eternal life, and then go on to hate their brother, if no one who hates their brother has eternal life?

Wouldn't the fact of their hatred mean that they don't actually have eternal life?

Much love!

This is totally illogical. Why would John bother to mention something that does not apply to believers but to unbelievers? He is talking to believers and warning them not to hate their brother. For he is writing to believers. It would be dumb to say that unbelievers hate their spiritual brothers because they don't have any spiritual brothers.

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 5:2-4
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Luke 8:11-15
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)​

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back (James 5:19-20)​

In fact, Paul is against Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved type belief. For Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
   
   
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
   
   
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
   
   
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
   
   
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
   
   
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
   
   
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
   
   
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

These things would not exist in Scripture if things are as you say.