Secure Eternal Salvation

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Ferris Bueller

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He is NOT talking about the works that God prepared for us in advance (Heb. 2:10).
Those don't make you righteous. Faith makes you righteous all by itself apart from works.
Paul says Abraham is our example and proof of how a person is made righteous apart from works. But since you do not believe that tell us what works Paul says Abraham did to be declared (made) righteous. Or do you just believe Paul was wrong altogether about the matter?
 

Ferris Bueller

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That's why your Protestant Fathers like Luther and Calvin wanted this Book ejected from the Canon.
...and then went on to understand how James and Paul do not contradict each other in the matter of justification. But for some reason Catholics like to leave out that part, lol.
 

Ferris Bueller

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And since you seem to reject Sola Scripture and believe that Christians are endowed with "wisdom and discernment" - explain why there are tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant factions that teach different - and even competing doctrines based on this "wisdom and discernment".
Because there's this thing called 'false prophets'.
True believers navigate the sea of doctrine through wisdom and discernment as they grow up in knowledge and understanding. There are many false prophets and their false religious systems and doctrines along the way to buffet them, including the Catholic religion. But the true believer who remains steadfast in his faith in the blood of Christ will not be led astray by these false Christian beliefs. True believers are unified inwardly by the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 17:23) through the bond of peace (Ephesians 4:3) as we individually grow up into unity of the faith (Ephesians 4:13).

You say the Catholic church is the one and only original church, and is not, and has never been, splintered by differences of doctrine. If you knew the Bible you'd know that is simply not true. The Bible itself talks about these divisions in the early churches (i.e. 1 Corinthians 1:11, 1 Corinthians 3:4, Ephesians 4:13, Philippians 3:15, Philippians 4:2). But you claim the earliest church was your church and that there were/are no doctrinal divisions in the real church. NOT! You do not know scripture!
 

Desire Of All Nations

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Well I went back and looked up core beliefs of gnosticism- eternal security is not one of them. salvation through ascending through the levels of "gnosis" is. I would like to see your reference for gnostics and eternal security, as is spelled out in Scripture.
I didn't say Gnostics believed in eternal security. I said Simon Magus mixed the Gnostics' belief about the afterlife with the biblical concept of salvation and created the eternal security doctrine.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Don't evade the point.
You are split into denominations.
WRONG again.
The Catholic Church which existed from the 1st cenruty was the ONLY Christian Cbgurch.
When the East split off and became the Orthodox Churches - the Catholic Church remained the Catholic Church.

UNLIKE your Protestant Revolt, which gave birth to tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering sects that were ALL created be mere men.
Do your homework . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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If you think I said that then you didn't read my post very carefully, lol. ↓↓↓
Not that God doesn't want us in unity of doctrine:
And yet, YOU say it's "impossible".

With God - NOTHING is impossible (Luke 1:37).
 

BreadOfLife

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Those don't make you righteous. Faith makes you righteous all by itself apart from works.
Paul says Abraham is our example and proof of how a person is made righteous apart from works. But since you do not believe that tell us what works Paul says Abraham did to be declared (made) righteous. Or do you just believe Paul was wrong altogether about the matter?
They are essential, but not to MAKE you righteous, as the Catholics believe they do.
Many Protestants don't understand the matter any better than you Catholics do. No argument here about that, lol. They just misunderstand it in a different way than you.
Then you learned NOTHING from James or Paul.

James shows us that belief and faith are two different things (James 2:14-24).
Belief is what even the DEMONS have (James 2:19).
Faith = Belief + Works/obedience.

Paul tells us that Faith is NOT the greatest virtue unless it's a love/works based faith (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6).
 

BreadOfLife

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...and then went on to understand how James and Paul do not contradict each other in the matter of justification. But for some reason Catholics like to leave out that part, lol.
WRONG.
Luther had to be talked out of it by his friend Philip Melanchton, who convinced him to leave it in his German translation.

Do your homework.
 

Ferris Bueller

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WRONG.
Luther had to be talked out of it by his friend Philip Melanchton, who convinced him to leave it in his German translation.

Do your homework.
“We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.”

― Martin Luther

He understood that Paul and James were not in contradiction about justification.
 

Stumpmaster

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Actually - ignorance and revisionist history of the Inquisitions is what is damnable.
Speaking of history, the assimilation of Christianity in Pagan Political & Papal Rome is as follows:

The year 753 BC is the traditional date for the founding of Rome and the beginning of the 243 year period of the Roman Kingdom

This founding of Rome by Romulus , who reigned as its king for the next 37 years, was accompanied by augury to ascertain the will of the gods and settle the bitter rivalry between him and his twin brother Remus. Apparently Romulus saw six vultures and Remus saw twelve, but whether the omen was auspicious for either of them is immaterial, as Romulus took the initiative and went ahead with his plans which included Remus consequently being killed.

Stepped in paganism the Roman Kingdom took its religion most seriously in order to achieve success as a dominant power, honouring a great number of deities in a daily collective piety to maintain good relations with them.

Quote:

The king alone possessed the right to the auspice on behalf of Rome as its chief augur, and no public business could be performed without the will of the gods made known through auspices. The people knew the king as a mediator between them and the gods (cf. Latin pontifex, "bridge-builder", in this sense, between men and the gods) and thus viewed the king with religious awe. This made the king the head of the national religion and its chief executive. Having the power to control the Roman calendar, he conducted all religious ceremonies and appointed lower religious offices and officers. It is said that Romulus himself instituted the augurs and was believed to have been the best augur of all. Likewise, King Numa Pompilius instituted the pontiffs and through them developed the foundations of the religious dogma of Rome. (Wkpd "Roman Kingdom")

The Roman Kingdom was replaced by the Roman Republic in 509 BC and although the monarchy was abolished, pagan deities and religious practices remained, and as before their miscellany increased as Roman control over surrounding regions spread:

Quote:

The official recognition, adoption and supervision of foreign deities and practices, whether Etruscan, Sabine, Latin or colonial Greek, had been an important unitary feature in Rome's territorial expansion and dominance since the days of the kings. For example, king Servius Tullius had established an Aventine temple to Diana as a Roman focus for the Latin League.(Wkpd "Roman Republic")

Through civil wars and political conflict the Roman Republic became extremely unstable and ended with the establishment of the Roman Empire in 27 BC. Although Julius Caesar had been proclaimed "perpetual dictator" prior to his assassination in 44 BC, it was his adopted nephew Octavian who was the first Roman Emperor following his rise to power and his being named Augustus by the Senate and People of Rome. It wasn't long before "emperor worship" became mandatory and those rejecting it were charged with treason, particularly when Christianity began to spread.

Quotes: (Wkpd)

Rejection of the state religion became tantamount to treason against the emperor. This was the context for Rome's conflict with Christianity, which Romans variously regarded as a form of atheism and novel superstitio.

Superstitio was excessive devotion and enthusiasm in religious observance, in the sense of "doing or believing more than was necessary",[537] or "irregular" religious practice that conflicted with Roman custom. Glossary of ancient Roman religion - Wikipedia

Despite three centuries of supression, Christianity was adopted as the state religion of the Roman Empire at the beginning of the 4th century AD. The turning point occurred in the first decade of 4th century with the resignation of Diocletian (305 AD). A power struggle followed. A first political, open hostilities broke out between Maxentius and Constantine (310). Constanine was not a Christian, but a devotee of god of war Mars and the Sun god Apollo--Sol Invictus. He was, however, favorably disposed toward the Christians because his mother, later consecrated as St. Helena, was a Chritian.
Roman Empire adopts Christianity (histclo.com)
While the Church received official sanction and support, the Church now was less independent and had to submpit to imperial political control. One of the first actions of the Church once it obtained imperial sanction was was to begin the prosecutions of other Christians who did not conform to state approved theology.
 

Ferris Bueller

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James shows us that belief and faith are two different things (James 2:14-24).
Belief is what even the DEMONS have (James 2:19).
Faith = Belief + Works/obedience.
That is complete and utter nonsense.
The word in James 2:19 is 'believe'. It's a verb. It's the Greek word pisteuō.

"19You believe (pisteuō) that God is one.g Good for you! Even the demons believe (pisteuō) that—and shudder." James 2:19

Demons have the action of believing that there is one God.
'Faith', or 'belief', on the other hand, is a noun. It's a thing. It's a person's believing when spoken of as a thing. It's the Greek word pistis.
Here's both words in the same sentence:

" 5 ...to the one who does not work, but believes (pisteuō) in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith (pistis) is credited as righteousness." Romans 4:5

As you can see Abraham's believing—his belief—is his faith. They are not two different things as you falsely claim.

The important take-away here is Abraham did not work to be made righteous, but believed. He had faith. And that faith was counted to him as his righteousness. It's a righteousness that comes from God. Not from us when we work. He was made righteous by his believing—his faith—all by itself without work. He did no work to receive righteousness. It was given to him as a gift because he had faith in God's promises. And that is how we, also, are made righteous. We receive it as a free gift when we believe that Christ is the Son of God who died as the payment for our sins and inherits the blessing of God on our behalf. Just as Abraham received righteousness as a free gift when he believed God's promise that he would give him a son who would inherit the blessing on his behalf. He is our example of how a person is made righteous without works (Romans 4:6, Romans 4:23-24).

This is the very truth that escapes Catholics. They can not see it. And so they have developed a religion of ceremonies that make a person righteous. Work that Paul says Abraham did not do to be made righteous, and that Abraham is our example of how we, also, will be made righteous by our believing without works. This truth, this revelation completely escapes Catholics. They can't see it. And yet they are certain they are the one true, original religion and that all others are wrong.
 
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robert derrick

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Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

James is speaking to double-minded Christians, who want to believe in Jesus in the heart, while yet disobeying Jesus with the body.

The idea of believers playing no role in, having no part in, not being responsible for our salvation is the effort of hypocrites to separate the responsibility of their souls from the sins of their bodies: they want to believe a lie that faith and obedience are separate from one another.

They would believe in the heart, while yet disobeying in the body.

We
draw nigh to God. We purify our hearts and so purify ourselves, even as He is pure.

We are to resist temptation in the spirit and in the body.

We pull down every stronghold of lust and thought of disobedience in our minds.

We are given power to become the sons of God, and so to learn obedience to Him as Jesus did, even when the flesh is weak, and the mind doesn't feel like it.

They do not overcome the infirmity of the flesh by the help of God's grace, but rather overthrow judgement against sin by help of an 'unconditional grace' that is not of God, but of the world.

OSAS is the realm of them that only obey when convenient, and so pat themselves on the back as doing good. But then when lust calls, their bodies are given to sin, while pretending their hearts are still pure by 'faith', which is not the faith of Jesus, but is the dead faith of the children of disobedience upon whom is the wrath of God.
 

robert derrick

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This is a rather presumptive argument, because you haven't looked into every church's teaching to know this is absolutely true. Revelation shows Christ marrying the 1 organization that has represented Him for the last 1900 years, so there is an organization out there that officially represents God. Protestants believe the opposite is true because they've been conditioned by the Reformers to hate the idea of a single church having ecclesiastical authority, and not because it's what the Bible actually teaches. Contrary to Protestant thought, Christ is not going to marry thousands of different groups that have spent the last several centuries contradicting each other and the Bible.
Nowhere in that passage did Christ say "I ordain you, Simon Peter, as the first pope" though. Catholics frequently cite this passage as proof that their church was supposedly founded by Christ while completely ignoring the fact that the Greek shows Christ saying the Church would be built on Himself. Paul reinforced this statement in Eph. 2 and 1 Cor. 3 where he says Jesus is the sole foundation. That's why Jesus said His Church won't die. When i read about the vision John saw in Rev. 1, i don't see him talking about Simon Peter holding 7 stars in his hand or standing among the 7 lampstands.
It is classic Gnosticism, because the core doctrine of this belief is that a person will go to a paradise of some sort regardless of what they do while their soul is trapped in their physical bodies. When Simon Magus started his counterfeit church, he blended this belief with the doctrine concerning salvation. Where you do think the belief that obeying God isn't necessary came from? It certainly didn't come from Christ or any of the epistles."But He answered and said, 'It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ” - Matt. 4:4

Christ didn't say "the Israelite/Jewish man shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God". He said "man", as in every human being. There isn't a single word in the Bible that doesn't apply to Gentiles. After all, God explicitly stated in Deuteronomy that Israel was given His laws so the rest of the world would follow their example. It makes no sense to argue the Bible wasn't supposed to apply to Gentiles when the Bible shows God is going to render judgement on the world for living contrary to what the Bible says.
Just because no one can pluck a Christian from God's hand doesn't mean the Christian can't choose to leave His hand. A Christian has to consistently choose to stay there. That's what OSAS people don't understand. Or maybe they just don't want to understand it.
It is classic Gnosticism, because the core doctrine of this belief is that a person will go to a paradise of some sort regardless of what they do while their soul is trapped in their physical bodies. When Simon Magus started his counterfeit church, he blended this belief with the doctrine concerning salvation.

I haven't heard this before.

What you describe is accurate about the core of OSAS, which is basically saved by faith alone.

However, unlike the gnostics, they do not believe their souls are 'trapped' in their bodies, but rather literally believe their souls are no longer responsible for the deeds of their bodies, because their hearts now sit in heavenly places, while their bodies are still trapped on earth.

While their bodies continue in willful sin, God has become blind to sin in their hearts and souls: He cannot see any of their sin, because it is 'covered' by the blood of the Lamb. Which of course is a lie, because Jesus' blood doesn't cover any sin, but only washes us clean of sin by confession and repentance.

The grace of God is the opportunity to find help in time of need to overcome temptation and sin. The 'unconditional' grace of the world claims to excuse all sin as 'unseen' by God, though plainly done in sight of man.

While trying to keep their hearts 'pure' by faith alone, which is dead, they make God into the blind monkey that sees no evil, for Jesus sake.
 

robert derrick

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OSAS is such a strong delusion, because they read just enough Scripture to hang themselves with it.

God sends strong delusion and a lying spirit to them that want to believe it.

In this manner, He takes the crafty in their own craftiness.

So that if anyone wants to believe Scripture contradicts itself in one way or another, or that Christ is created, God has written Scripture in such a way as to allow it, if anyone really wants to believe such a thing is possible in Scripture.

Same with OSAS, they quote and wrest enough Scripture to believe the lie, that having faith in the heart excuses the soul from the sinful deeds of the body: trusting in a salvation by faith alone in the heart, without responsibility for crucifying the deeds of the flesh.
 

robert derrick

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OSAS are the double minded who claim to really 'hate' sin, and know they ought not to continue therein, but they don't hate sins enough to repent of them.

I.e. the 'hatred' for sin is mental only, even as their 'faith' is dead, being alone in the heart only, and not seen with the body.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
 

robert derrick

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God is all sovereign over our salvation, and we have no cooperation with Him, nor are we responsible for His saving us.

Our responsibility for eternal salvation is to purify our hearts from lust and disobedience, so that we purge our lives of sins and trespasses by the body.

We do so by grace through the faith of Jesus, who likewise did so in the days of His flesh.

He did so, when He purged the sin of disobedience from His heart by strong crying and tears, when the infirmity of His flesh did not want to go to the cross.

The strong delusion of OSAS is that no such strong crying and tears are necessary for them to overcome sin, because He did it for them in the garden.

Jesus did so for Himself, that He might bring many sons to glory, who would likewise have power to becomes sons of God like Himself, and so do the same for ourselves in the hour of our own temptation and great tribulation of the flesh.

Jesus did not 'pray through' to the cross, so that we wouldn't need to 'pray through' unto death.

For she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.