Living in Sin or just roommates who love each other?
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Counting the days
Love by the dashboard lights!
And.....now I waiting for the end of time, to hurry on down the line. Because if I have to spend another minute with you I really do not think I can survive!
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I really do think it would be funny if people in church....God love 'em....would just succumb to their desires and just sniff each other's butts when they walk in.
@Rita The "revolving door" can cause a lot of heartache - and indeed in contexts far wider than marriage situations - but by His grace the Lord looks for steadfastness, 1 Corinthians 15.58. Good that you still have your father to pray for...
@Rita I know that you must have some very complex and profound memories of your domestic situation that you have described.
I guess that memories and psychological analysis can be very absorbing indeed.
In the end looking up, "looking unto Jesus" (Hebrews 12.2) clarifies and guides things remembered far more than psychological categories.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Paul referred to it.
I was going to bring this up before, because the case was being made that 'legal marriage' is a modern invention.
Not so:
"1Do you not know, brothers (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. " Romans 7:1-2
To be honest I no longer have an emotional connection to my marriage, not sure if it’s because Jeff has died or not, but I can talk about it without it hitting anything emotionally now. I guess that’s the power of healing from your past xx
Marriage with a state issued license. Marriage as defined by state laws (shared bank accounts, living together etc) Common Law, all have legal protections and consequences under the authority of the government. There are reason for government being involved in the marriage process. Blood test, courts sometimes having to clean up disputes and a number of other sad situations. You can make a public claim that you're married without any involvement from the government but as soon as someone is wronged, those married under those circumstances typically look to the law for help. This is why in the OP I made it clear. No sex, no same bedroom, no joint bank accounts. Just roommates who love each other.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
No the case is not being made that marriage is a modern inventions. Marriages have existed for thousands of years. Wedding ceremonies have been the customs of Pagans for thousands of years...but not the Jews and Christians. They adopted the template of Roman weddings and the first recorded Christion wedding occurred in the 9th century and the Protestants made it a requirement in the 16th century.
That verse has nothing to do about wedding ceremonies.
He is actually referring to the Jew directly "to those who know the law"
There is no "legal marriage" in the Mosaic Law. Just an acknowledgement of the marriage in the Mosaic Law. And stating the fact that the woman remains the property of the man as long as he is alive.
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@Rita Particularly if the spouse is deceased, time does heal; ppl do move on.
I know that I had and still have a lot of thoughts about my father, but he passed away nearly 30 years ago; and the thoughts are still intense and indeed appreciative but time does have an effect.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
You wasted all that cyber breath. I wasn't talking about marriage itself. I was talking about the legalities of marriage.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Are you looking for a Mosaic Law?
You are not going to find one. Adultery in the Old Testament is a property crime. A man may have paid for his wife and to some degree slavery and if they ran off they would be executed. The terms of remarriage after divorce is in chapter 24 of Deuteronomy.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
And so Paul was possibly referring to Roman law in Romans 7:1.
The point being, lawfully recognized marriage is not a modern invention.
Some are trying to excuse the reckless behavior of the couple in the OP by saying legally recognized and governed marriage is a modern invention and, therefore, is not binding. But as we can see from the Bible itself that just isn't true.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The statement you are making...."lawfully recognized marriage" is an issue and the definition of modern would be a little loose.
Civil law? When was it that any court ruled on a matter of marriage. That would give you a date for lawful marriages....the ruling against secret marriages...the Clandestine Marriage act of 1753. When were there actual courts to define marriages....after the first millennium and then when did they address it, I would say around the 1700's.
The focus on the family in Christian ministries....it is a warm fuzzy....that is modern. The history of Christian weddings does not show up much until after the first millennium, but the history of marriages is a sequence of tragedies, something that most are not going to know about and not like! The push in the Bible is for celibacy and no need to form a family because it is believed that Christ and the tribulations will occur soon. You know Paul's writings. "Now concerning the betrothed, I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. I think that in view of the present distress it is good for a person to remain as he is." 1st Corinthians 7:25-26
After the biblical era women and nudity and sex becomes more and more demonized. Sex becomes linked to the devil, then women become the instrument of temptation used by the devil against us good menz. LOL It goes horribly down hill from there.
The good men of God, Christian leaders separate themselves in desert monasteries and caves, and trees to remove themselves from all temptation. The clergy become celibate. Church leaders see no benefit in marriage. Martin Luther expressed regret that he had to address the institution of marriage. What everyone is wanting to believe is not happening in history...The desire of marriage is happening in the Christian populous but the Christian leaders are nearly raging a war against it. The Church is deeming the desire to marry as lust of sex and linked to the devil.
Origen, St. Jerome, St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, and St. Thomas Aquinas are not only the most famous theologians of Christian history, some held the titles of Fathers and Doctors of the Church and most were canonized as Saints. The bulk of modern beliefs, doctrines, and interpretations, in nearly all denominations, can be traced to these men. No female input, which I see as one of the worst mistakes of the Church. It was bad enough that they subscribed to the doctrines of the Roman Empire, but their beliefs regarding women were devastating. These men had very negative views towards women and taught that anything to do with sex was straight from Satan. Any type of sexuality, beauty, feelings, or pleasure were the worst of sins, and celibacy, ugly, sorrow, suffering, and pain were Godly. Romanic love in itself was considered wrong. They believed marital sex was a sin even though they acknowledged that it was a necessity. An insane conundrum of logic. A man’s desire for his wife was considered lust and the only time marital sex should be performed was to have children and after that sex should stop. Origen actually castrated himself because he thought his penis was tempting him. Ouch! This is after a slue of sexual issues and statements against the evils of women and sex.
Even though St. Jerome obviously preferred the company of women, (Because the company he kept and most of his followers were women.) He still had this to say about the status of women: “….it is contrary to the order of nature, or of law, that women should speak in the assembly of men……and man should be commanded to love his wife, whereas the wife should fear her husband.” and he also said “Nothing is so unclean as a woman in her periods; what she touches she causes to become unclean.” Written by St. Jerome
“Because Eve caused the fall of Man she and all women were cursed to painfully deliver children between urine and feces.” Written by St. Jerome
“He who ardently loves his own wife is an adulterer.” Written by St. Jerome
On the topic of sexual desire...“Who can control this when its appetite is aroused? No one! In the very movement of this appetite, then, it has no ‘mode’ that responds to the decisions of the will. But when those who delight in this pleasure are not moved to it at their own will, whether they confine themselves to lawful or transgress to a unlawful pleasures; but sometimes this lust importunes them in spite of themselves, and sometimes fails them when they desire to feel it, so that though lust rages in the mind, it stirs not in the body Written by St. Augustine
“This diabolical excitement of the genitals…” (As St. Augustine refers to the act of sex.) …is evidence of Adam’s original sin which is now transmitted “from the mother’s womb,” tainting all human beings with sin, and leaving them incapable of choosing good over evil, or determining their own destiny.” Written by St. Augustine
“We must conclude, that a husband is meant to rule over his wife as the spirit rules over the flesh. and “the flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh.” Written by St. Augustine
Referring to the Hell that awaits women, Augustine in his famous Latin sermon ''Ad Fratres in Eremitate Sermo LXIX.'' He describes how Satan seized the damned female and commanded his fellow devils to “pierce her eyes with forks as she enjoyed looking at unclean things, pierce her mouth as she used them for blasphemy, pierce her heart, as she did not harbor piety, compassion, clemency, and forgiveness there, pierce her hands with the heavy fork forged in Hell since she reached with them at things unclean and did not use them to distribute alms and help her neighbors, use the fiery forks to pierce her legs that she used to dance and meet her lovers.' Then to the gates of Hell she is carried and then '"out steps a hideous, horrible dragon, always ready to devour sinners. The dragon inserts the female into his mouth, full of stench. After chewing and digesting its prey, the dragon vomits the female into a fiery lake, where millions of other sinners wait for their trial by our Lord." Written by St. Augustine
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
”..marriage is a crime against God, because it changed the state of virginity that God gave every man and woman at birth....Marriage was prostitution of the members of Christ, and married people ought to blush at the state in which they live.” Written by St. Ambrose
In the year 553 A.D. At a Council of bishops in Macon, religious leaders debate and voted on whether or not females had souls. By a narrow margin the Bishops decide that females have souls. Like it was their choice.
Penitential regulation laid down in the 7th century by Theodore, Bishop of Canterbury, forbade menstruating women to take communion or even enter the church. At the French Synod of Meraux, menstruating women were specifically forbidden to come to church
We move forward to the year 940 A.D. A well-respected religious leader named Odo, who was the leader of the Monks of Cluny, wrote, “To embrace a woman is to embrace a sack of manure.” And considered “….the beauty of a woman the greatest of snares.”
Thomas Aquinas, 1225-1274, Italian professor of philosophy, Catholic theologian, and doctor of the Church, sainted in 1323. One of the few geniuses of Christianity. He had great potential, but his downfall was that he built his theology on the teachings of Saint Augustine and Aristotle and other Greek concepts which made his conclusions inherently flawed. Christianity could have been a better religion if he would have thought it through with his own brilliant mind. In his writings he responded to many negative statements towards women, so not all of what I have here came from him. On the topic of the production of women; “...woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power in the male seed tends to the productions of perfect likeness (male babies) according to the masculine sex; while the productions of woman comes from defect in the active power.” (In other words, corrupt or damages the male seed to produce a female baby.) He goes on to explain that women are subject to men because men are more intelligent and women are necessary for the balance of good and evil, and that although they are an occasion for sin, they are necessity so male babies can be born... “Nor was it fitting for the common good (men) to be destroyed in order that individual evil (women) might be avoided.” On the topic of sex, Thomas equates innocence and purity to men, but as far as women, only if they are virgins. Mind and soul based on the status of their vaginas! But then he does recognize the necessity of sex, but then also pointing out its inherently sinful nature, nearly implying that in this world, life cannot exist without sex and sin....This is straight up Greek philosophy. Because of his focus on St. Augustine and Aristotle, his writings were elegant and intellectual horse manure. Such a shame...but he never supported the mistreatment of women.
There are hundreds of these type of misogynic statements from the most renown and influential Christian leaders of the Middle Ages. And again many were labeled Fathers and Doctors of the Church and most were canonized as Saints. Nearly every Christian denomination was influenced by the minds and hearts of these men. So short of these famous Christian leaders being insane.....is there really a mystery as to why these leaders of Christianity subscribed to the torture of the, we will just say "the soft areas of women" and eventually producing a book on how to torture women. And then from there it get really bad! Bad enough that I cannot describe it and if I did it would make some puke!
Your concern for marriage is struggling in all this history. Marriage is buried in the fallout of this demonization of women, sex, and nudity. In the Old Testament marriage is something that God gave Man his own privacy, it is a cruel period and marriage arrangements had their negative side, regarding property, polygamy, and concubinage. In the New Testament the focus is on saving souls and spreading the Gospel because they think Christ could return any day. Romance, marriage, and families were just not a priority.
No civil courts for Christians...Churches are not being built because the Romans would just come in and take them. Churches are being built after the Edict of Milan....February 313 AD. The several Ecumenical Councils that occur over the centuries do not address marriage specifically and the witch-hunts and inquisitions soon follow the main councils. The Church sinks into a form of religious / social insanity that had no support for marriages. Coming out of this insanity was a slow process and was not at the top of the list to correct.
Church corruption becomes the focal point. Finally the Church address the fact that females should have a say in who they marry....consensual marriages....then in the 12th century the church makes marriage a sacrament but still did not require a wedding or vows....they are talking of the benefits of having a clergy present if you did have a wedding. Then the Protestant reform happened and shortly after the Protestants required wedding ceremonies for marriages. By this time the wedding customs had taken on the Roman weddings as a template. Then the Catholic Church makes it a requirement to have weddings and again try to take control.... making a rule that marriages can only be done by Catholic priests and only Catholic wedding are valid. So is the state of marriages until around the 1500's.
Now you may understand why I do not subscribe to the demonization of women, sex, and nudity, because that line of thinking drove the Church nutz! Attraction, love, sexual desire, sex, to have and to hold, children and family, is a matter of love and respect, designed by God. No one needs to be sniffing our people's crouches.
Besides the importance of weddings and marriages, we get into the topics of women and slavery and the Christian morals that were taught by the Holy Spirit, "in more modern times." No Fundamentalists...God was not done with us! Much to learn after the Bible.
In the year 553 A.D. At a Council of bishops in Macon, religious leaders debate and voted on whether or not females had souls. By a narrow margin the Bishops decide that females have souls. Like it was their choice.
Penitential regulation laid down in the 7th century by Theodore, Bishop of Canterbury, forbade menstruating women to take communion or even enter the church. At the French Synod of Meraux, menstruating women were specifically forbidden to come to church
We move forward to the year 940 A.D. A well-respected religious leader named Odo, who was the leader of the Monks of Cluny, wrote, “To embrace a woman is to embrace a sack of manure.” And considered “….the beauty of a woman the greatest of snares.”
Thomas Aquinas, 1225-1274, Italian professor of philosophy, Catholic theologian, and doctor of the Church, sainted in 1323. One of the few geniuses of Christianity. He had great potential, but his downfall was that he built his theology on the teachings of Saint Augustine and Aristotle and other Greek concepts which made his conclusions inherently flawed. Christianity could have been a better religion if he would have thought it through with his own brilliant mind. In his writings he responded to many negative statements towards women, so not all of what I have here came from him. On the topic of the production of women; “...woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power in the male seed tends to the productions of perfect likeness (male babies) according to the masculine sex; while the productions of woman comes from defect in the active power.” (In other words, corrupt or damages the male seed to produce a female baby.) He goes on to explain that women are subject to men because men are more intelligent and women are necessary for the balance of good and evil, and that although they are an occasion for sin, they are necessity so male babies can be born... “Nor was it fitting for the common good (men) to be destroyed in order that individual evil (women) might be avoided.” On the topic of sex, Thomas equates innocence and purity to men, but as far as women, only if they are virgins. Mind and soul based on the status of their vaginas! But then he does recognize the necessity of sex, but then also pointing out its inherently sinful nature, nearly implying that in this world, life cannot exist without sex and sin....This is straight up Greek philosophy. Because of his focus on St. Augustine and Aristotle, his writings were elegant and intellectual horse manure. Such a shame...but he never supported the mistreatment of women.
There are hundreds of these type of misogynic statements from the most renown and influential Christian leaders of the Middle Ages. And again many were labeled Fathers and Doctors of the Church and most were canonized as Saints. Nearly every Christian denomination was influenced by the minds and hearts of these men. So short of these famous Christian leaders being insane.....is there really a mystery as to why these leaders of Christianity subscribed to the torture of the, we will just say "the soft areas of women" and eventually producing a book on how to torture women. And then from there it get really bad! Bad enough that I cannot describe it and if I did it would make some puke!
Your concern for marriage is struggling in all this history. Marriage is buried in the fallout of this demonization of women, sex, and nudity. In the Old Testament marriage is something that God gave Man his own privacy, it is a cruel period and marriage arrangements had their negative side, regarding property, polygamy, and concubinage. In the New Testament the focus is on saving souls and spreading the Gospel because they think Christ could return any day. Romance, marriage, and families were just not a priority.
No civil courts for Christians...Churches are not being built because the Romans would just come in and take them. Churches are being built after the Edict of Milan....February 313 AD. The several Ecumenical Councils that occur over the centuries do not address marriage specifically and the witch-hunts and inquisitions soon follow the main councils. The Church sinks into a form of religious / social insanity that had no support for marriages. Coming out of this insanity was a slow process and was not at the top of the list to correct.
Church corruption becomes the focal point. Finally the Church address the fact that females should have a say in who they marry....consensual marriages....then in the 12th century the church makes marriage a sacrament but still did not require a wedding or vows....they are talking of the benefits of having a clergy present if you did have a wedding. Then the Protestant reform happened and shortly after the Protestants required wedding ceremonies for marriages. By this time the wedding customs had taken on the Roman weddings as a template. Then the Catholic Church makes it a requirement to have weddings and again try to take control.... making a rule that marriages can only be done by Catholic priests and only Catholic wedding are valid. So is the state of marriages until around the 1500's.
Now you may understand why I do not subscribe to the demonization of women, sex, and nudity, because that line of thinking drove the Church nutz! Attraction, love, sexual desire, sex, to have and to hold, children and family, is a matter of love and respect, designed by God. No one needs to be sniffing our people's crouches.
Besides the importance of weddings and marriages, we get into the topics of women and slavery and the Christian morals that were taught by the Holy Spirit, "in more modern times." No Fundamentalists...God was not done with us! Much to learn after the Bible.
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
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